Laver's close era CYGS should, remain closed. Even his open era CYGS, let's be open about it.

uscwang

Hall of Fame
Saying that Laver has two CYGS is a bit misleading, even on the bright side.

In 1962 of the close era, Laver played not only among amateurs, but just 5 matches in a 48-player Australian Open (39 of whom were Australian) and 6 matches in a 112-player French Open. Needless to say, all were played on grass except FO. To put the amateurship of the close era into perspective, in 1963, University of Southern California's men's tennis team had Richard Ralston as #1 singles player and Rafael Osuna (from Mexico, before the Wall is built) as #2. Osuna happened to have won that year's US Open (US National Championships) in singles and was ranked #1 in the world. Go figure.

In 1969, the first full year of the open era, Laver again played just 5 matches in a 48-player Australian Open (28 of whom were, you know, Australian). Australia had many top tennis players back then. But the AO simply was not an equal of the other three. It was more like a small draw ATP 1000 today.

It is indeed hard to match Laver's rather special 2 CYGS achievement.

Some more thoughts.
Tennis GS history can be roughly divided into four chapters.
A. The close era amateur GS (when there were Big 3 + AO, no hard court). Best players:
Roy Emerson (total 12)
Bill Tilden (total 10)
Don Budge (total 6, 6 in a row including CYGSc)
Rod Laver (total 6, CYGSc)

B. The close era pro GS (no AO, about 12-player tournament, no hard court). Best players:
Ken Rosewall (total 15, 5 in a row including CYGSp)
Pancho Gonzales (total 12)
Rod Laver (total 8, CYGSp)

C. The early open era GS (when there were Big 3 + AO, no hard court in most of the years). Best players:
Bjorn Borg (total 11 despite playing AO only once)
Jimmy Connors (total 8 despite playing AO only twice, and not playing FO in 5 of his prime years, 1x3GS/year when was not allowed to play FO)
Rod Laver (total 5, CYGSo)

D. The current open era GS (when there are Big 4 and 3 surfaces including hard court). Best players:
Federer (total 20, 2x3 in a row, 3x3/year)
Nadal (total 17, 1x3 in a row, 1x3/year, 11 FO titles and counting)
Djokovic (total 15, NCYGSo + 2x3 in a row, 2x3/year)
Sampras (total 14, 6 consecutive YE #1)

Rod Laver (aka Lacalendar) has been unique in that he won CYGS in three chapters: close era amateur, close era pro, and early open era. While his first (1962) and second CYGS (1967) were inferior to Budge's 6 in a row (1937-38), and Rosewall's 5 in a row (1962-63), respectively, his third CYGS (1969) stands alone.

Lacalendar (born in 1938) is one of the two best players of his time, the other being Ken Rosewall (born in 1934). Rosewall turned pro in 1957, Laver 1963. They only started playing each other in 1963, when Rosewall beat Laver 38-13. Since 1964, after Rosewall turned 30, Lacalendar beat him 76-37.

In the close era, Rosewall won 4 amateur and 15 pro titles (including 5 in a row and CYGSp, 1962-63). Lacalendar won 6 amateur titles (including CYGSc) and 8 pro titles (including CYGSp). If we believe pros represent the highest level of tennis in the close era (Laver won CYGSc in 1962, but got beaten by Rosewall 38-13 in the pro tour the next year), then Rosewall's record tops Lacalendar's by a margin.

In the early open era, which started when Rosewall was 34 and Laver 30, Rosewall won 4 titles to Laver's 5 (including CYGSo).

Rosewall has won a total of 23 GS titles (including 5 in a row and CYGSp), 19 of which were won competing with the best of the time. Laver has won a total of 19 GS (including CYGSc, CYGSp, CYGSo), 13 of which were won competing with the best. Considering their age difference, I would argue Rosewall is a better player than Laver, but Lacalendar got the greater fame for, you know, calendar.
 
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Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Consecutive wins in Open Era Slams:

Djokovic 30
Laver 26

all-time: Budge 37

non consecutive slams: Tilden 51
 

BlueB

Legend
But the AO simply was not an equal of the other three. It was more like a small draw ATP 1000 today.
More like a strong 250...
But, he could only play what was available back then. He did great and kudos to him. That's why you can not really compare the eras...

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
 

tacou

G.O.A.T.
You play what you can play. there is no weak era, no cakewalk draw, no easy slam. Play to win, that is all.
 
To win the amateur Grand Slam, play pro for five years-winning the majority of titles he competed for, including the pro-slam-then returning and winning the Open Era Grand Slam (the only man in history to do so) is freaking incredible.
 
OP, you have a point, but not for the reason you mention.

The real reason is that nothing happened with the competition between 1968 and 1969 to warranty such a huge distinction, just because 1969 was considered the "Open Era".

The true Open Era would start later.

:cool:
 

Rabe87

Professional
Including Laver in the same breath as even Murray is an insult to modern tennis. The game has moved on in a huge way, and tennis was a grasscourt game in every event other than RG, playing in long slacks with jumpers and whereby tennis etiquette was such that hitting winners from the baseline was considered "rude" and "unsportsmanlike", one had to approach the net to put the ball away, tennis really started in the 80's.
 

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Including Laver in the same breath as even Murray is an insult to modern tennis. The game has moved on in a huge way, and tennis was a grasscourt game in every event other than RG, playing in long slacks with jumpers and whereby tennis etiquette was such that hitting winners from the baseline was considered "rude" and "unsportsmanlike", one had to approach the net to put the ball away, tennis really started in the 80's.


Do you really think that way?
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Including Laver in the same breath as even Murray is an insult to modern tennis. The game has moved on in a huge way, and tennis was a grasscourt game in every event other than RG, playing in long slacks with jumpers and whereby tennis etiquette was such that hitting winners from the baseline was considered "rude" and "unsportsmanlike", one had to approach the net to put the ball away, tennis really started in the 80's.
Tennis (like any other sport) continously evolves and changes the playstyle, rules, characteristics, etc. Player's greatness is measured by considering how great they did during their time. Otherwise, people from the future will always favor contemporaty players over past players. Imagine if people in the future were to say that "Including Djokovic in the same breath as John Smith (a player from the future with only 3 Grand Slams) is an insult to modern tennis".
 
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Red Rick

Bionic Poster
Do you really mean to say that we should be skeptical of slam wins against 16-man fields stacked full people who were his cousins, neighbours, drunk, or new to tennis?
Dude, I play better when drunk. It's a tremendous achievement to beat a drunk journeyman.
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Are you excluding his 3 victories before he lost to Taylor in Wimbledon 1970?
or do you penalize him for not playing previously the French Open 1970?
26 in consecutive slams, 29 in non consecutive slams.

In both cases Djokovic is ahead.
 

Rabe87

Professional
Tennis (like any other sport) continously evolves and changes the playstyle, rules, characteristics, etc. Player's greatness is measured by considering how great they did during their time. Otherwise, people from the future will always favor contemporaty players over past players. Imagine if people in the future were to say that "Including Djokovic in the same breath as John Smith (a player from the future with only 3 Grand Slams) is an insult to modern tennis".
In 100 years time that's exactly what we will be saying, players will be on supplements that enhance peak exercise capacity, we're looking at possible augmentations (this is 100 years into the future mind you), nobody will remember the Big 3 in a real tangible sense. The game of tennis in 100 years will be extremely different to what we know now, probably with guys playing well into their 50's and winning Slams. Things that were not thought possible will become possible with advances in medical science so of course, it's always relative.
 

Rabe87

Professional
We'll probably be seeing Slams have Draws of 256, and people will scoff at the year 2019 in which "only 128 players played". I'm most interested in what strings will be used in 40-50 years time, we've seen such a massive jump in quality and tension retention and spin production of polyesters but I think they've reached their peak, interesting to see what new materials become the new poly. Even since 2010/11, the string game has evolved so much, Babolat and Yonex have led the charge I must say. PolyTour Strike is in a class of its own for holding tension nearly as well as gut, and RPM Blast Rough from Bab is incredibly playable and powerful whilst it lasts, and for pro's who only use the same stringjob for 7 games, that's all they need. I've def noticed alot of Bab sponsored players and non-Bab sponsored players using RPM Blast Rough and same with Yonex strings, both companies should be commended.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Really amazing how players in the most homogenized eras with limited talent pools can pile up 15+ majors for fun isn't it? But yeah, let's keep relegating Sampras and Borg to the dustbin.
 

Rabe87

Professional
Really amazing how players in the most homogenized eras with limited talent pools can pile up 15+ majors for fun isn't it? But yeah, let's keep relegating Sampras and Borg to the dustbin.
Joe has more slams than Sampras and got RG :)
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
In 100 years time that's exactly what we will be saying, players will be on supplements that enhance peak exercise capacity, we're looking at possible augmentations (this is 100 years into the future mind you), nobody will remember the Big 3 in a real tangible sense. The game of tennis in 100 years will be extremely different to what we know now, probably with guys playing well into their 50's and winning Slams. Things that were not thought possible will become possible with advances in medical science so of course, it's always relative.

You gotta read up there if you think society is going to be anywhere what it is now in 100 years with big tennis tournaments.

Florida is going to be flooded several times a month just in just a couple of decades and some major cities are going to have the same as well as disastrous heat waves near the equator. I sincerely doubt pro sports will be around in any relatable capacity past 2050s.
 

Rabe87

Professional
You gotta read up there if you think society is going to be anywhere what it is now in 100 years with big tennis tournaments.

Florida is going to be flooded several times a month just in just a couple of decades and some major cities are going to have the same as well as disastrous heat waves near the equator. I sincerely doubt pro sports will be around in any relatable capacity past 2050s.
The Mayans inaccurately predicted 45 major global apocalypses in a 200-year stretch, let's not become doomsday prophets now.
 

tennisfan2015

Hall of Fame
In 100 years time that's exactly what we will be saying, players will be on supplements that enhance peak exercise capacity, we're looking at possible augmentations (this is 100 years into the future mind you), nobody will remember the Big 3 in a real tangible sense. The game of tennis in 100 years will be extremely different to what we know now, probably with guys playing well into their 50's and winning Slams. Things that were not thought possible will become possible with advances in medical science so of course, it's always relative.
Why only into their 50's? If human life is prolonged (organs printed or whatever) and if they live up to 200 years why tennis players of that era would not play tennis for 50-100 years? Or longer?
 

tennisfan2015

Hall of Fame
You gotta read up there if you think society is going to be anywhere what it is now in 100 years with big tennis tournaments.

Florida is going to be flooded several times a month just in just a couple of decades and some major cities are going to have the same as well as disastrous heat waves near the equator. I sincerely doubt pro sports will be around in any relatable capacity past 2050s.
Yeah, right. Here we go. End of the world crap.
 

Rabe87

Professional
Science? Natural Resources?

I got the impression a lot of posters here understood finance at least......

Sigh...

Coastal_sea_level_rise_13118_V4.png
They key word is Projected, these are alleged events that will allegedly impact coastlines, the earth is not warming in fact, it's cooling, and sea levels are not rising, they're in fact, receding. You wouldn't know that if you only watched CNN.
 

Rabe87

Professional
In any case, projected alleged incidents happening in the future are not fact, they're opinion, just like my thoughts on what tennis will be like in 100 years, I have no facts just my opinion. Don't let cloudy opinions become facts, it's the number 1 mistake most people make when trying to argue.
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
They key word is Projected, these are alleged events that will allegedly impact coastlines, the earth is not warming in fact, it's cooling, and sea levels are not rising, they're in fact, receding. You wouldn't know that if you only watched CNN.

CNN is a joke. Now where exactly are you getting your information? A few sprinkled in Forbes articles? There was a record heat wave in Australia this year plus on top of global warming there's our garbage problem which I've seen close and personal including floating islands. It's great though we have "realists" like yourself. But that's ok I'm convinced we're certifiably screwed outside Canada. We got lucky geographically :)
 

tennisfan2015

Hall of Fame
They key word is Projected, these are alleged events that will allegedly impact coastlines, the earth is not warming in fact, it's cooling, and sea levels are not rising, they're in fact, receding. You wouldn't know that if you only watched CNN.
Did not read your comment when I replied to him :) We think the same.
 

tennisfan2015

Hall of Fame
CNN is a joke. Now where exactly are you getting your information? A few sprinkled in Forbes articles? There was a record heat wave in Australia this year plus on top of global warming there's our garbage problem which I've seen close and personal including floating islands. It's great though we have "realists" like yourself. But that's ok I'm convinced we're certifiably screwed outside Canada. We got lucky geographically :)
You need to start reading real literature not online magazines and websites.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
In 100 years time that's exactly what we will be saying, players will be on supplements that enhance peak exercise capacity, we're looking at possible augmentations (this is 100 years into the future mind you), nobody will remember the Big 3 in a real tangible sense. The game of tennis in 100 years will be extremely different to what we know now, probably with guys playing well into their 50's and winning Slams. Things that were not thought possible will become possible with advances in medical science so of course, it's always relative.
More true than most people think. Perhaps the biggest change will be life expectancy, including how long people remain physically young. Then again, another giant comet could hit the earth in 20 years, and then humanity is history...
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
CNN is a joke. Now where exactly are you getting your information? A few sprinkled in Forbes articles? There was a record heat wave in Australia this year plus on top of global warming there's our garbage problem which I've seen close and personal including floating islands. It's great though we have "realists" like yourself. But that's ok I'm convinced we're certifiably screwed outside Canada. We got lucky geographically :)
I know one Canadian who would not agree. Extreme cold recently iced roads so badly that people were afraid to leave their homes, and without heat a lot of people in the US would likely be dead. The real issue is extremes, and they have been worse every year.
 

ChrisRF

Legend
Really amazing how players in the most homogenized eras with limited talent pools can pile up 15+ majors for fun isn't it? But yeah, let's keep relegating Sampras and Borg to the dustbin.
Come on, this "homogenisation" argument can only be an excuse for those who failed to win single important tournaments like Sampras and Borg. But what does that mean for total Slam count? Nothing, it all cancels each other out in the end. Because now you have to beat every contender everywhere while back than some were especially difficult and some especially easy (and elsewhere the other way around).

To say today it’s generally easier to win Slams is a joke. Imagine what it means if really everything would play the same and you would only play against “specialists” who built their whole game for exactly those conditions. You have to be the ovreall best to dominate and cannot create niches for yourself.

But while I agree though that courts are more similar to each other than in the 90s, homogenisation is still a bit overrated. Just look at Nadal on clay and off clay, and you will see it it not the same.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
Including Laver in the same breath as even Murray is an insult to modern tennis. The game has moved on in a huge way, and tennis was a grasscourt game in every event other than RG, playing in long slacks with jumpers and whereby tennis etiquette was such that hitting winners from the baseline was considered "rude" and "unsportsmanlike", one had to approach the net to put the ball away, tennis really started in the 80's.
Whats funny is people trying to make Laver look better by talking about the competition back then :laughing:
Tennis is a many times bigger sport now. The competitions isnt even comparable.
To me Laver tennis isnt the kind of tennis I like to watch, its a different sport.
 

Djokodalerer31

Hall of Fame
You play what you can play. there is no weak era, no cakewalk draw, no easy slam. Play to win, that is all.

I wonder why this isn't applied, when it comes to Djokovic...only if its Federer, Nadal or Laver...if its Djokovic we are talking about, then we have to forget about this logic and bring up easy draws, Federer's old age and you name it...LOL ANd also derate the importance of winning 4 slams in a row on three different surfaces, because according to anti-Djoker appologists: 1.Non-calendar doesn't matter as there is no such thing, only full calendar! 2.homogenization of surfaces in a couple of last decades! Funny, that when it comes to Laver bringing up what op brought up can't be taken as serious arguments, but when someone says non-calendar grand slam isn't as historically impactful as regular calendar year grand slam (even thoguh achieved on three different surfaces!) - it is automatically acceptable on TTW! LOL
 

EasyGoing

Professional
Come on, this "homogenisation" argument can only be an excuse for those who failed to win single important tournaments like Sampras and Borg. But what does that mean for total Slam count? Nothing, it all cancels each other out in the end. Because now you have to beat every contender everywhere while back than some were especially difficult and some especially easy (and elsewhere the other way around).

To say today it’s generally easier to win Slams is a joke. Imagine what it means if really everything would play the same and you would only play against “specialists” who built their whole game for exactly those conditions. You have to be the ovreall best to dominate and cannot create niches for yourself.

But while I agree though that courts are more similar to each other than in the 90s, homogenisation is still a bit overrated. Just look at Nadal on clay and off clay, and you will see it it not the same.[/QUOTE]

This right here kills any homogenisation theories. When Rafa plays on clay, he stands 6 m behind the baseline, firing spinny FH after spinny FH to his opponent’s backhand and grunting every shot higher into the air.

But, when Rafa plays off clay, he stands 5,5 m behind the baseline, firing spinny FH after spinny FH to his opponent’s backhand and grunting every shot much higher into the air. Totally different.
 

ChrisRF

Legend
This right here kills any homogenisation theories. When Rafa plays on clay, he stands 6 m behind the baseline, firing spinny FH after spinny FH to his opponent’s backhand and grunting every shot higher into the air.

But, when Rafa plays off clay, he stands 5,5 m behind the baseline, firing spinny FH after spinny FH to his opponent’s backhand and grunting every shot much higher into the air. Totally different.
Haha, quite true. Only in the last months he adjusted his game a bit to grass and faster hardcourts.

But the difference is the outcome. He totally dominates clay with this game but struggles a lot everywhere else. So surfaces are not the same.
 
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