James P
G.O.A.T.
I lol'd
Medvedev underrated on HC? Win rate 91% in 10 months
- Thread starter DjokoLand
- Start date
He played bad and the guy that is 9-0 in finals there who did the same to Nadal in 2019. The Nadal final at USO shouldn’t be used against Med he took it too 5 and had bp in last game. He also wasn’t as good as now.
I opened the thread to show he is underrated on HC not that he is at the level of Djokodal, though I feel he could beat both this year. He is underrated as in most say he isn’t good due to Slam Final loses to Nadal and Djokovic. Yet he is beating everyone else and making it too finals
Mainad
Bionic Poster
I wonder who this guy Murray is that seems to remind you so much of Medvedev? Nobody I can recall (doubt anybody else can either).
ForehandCross
G.O.A.T.
People here don't even watch his matches and are giving expert opinions.
I didn't watch him this week at Toronto due to sleep schedule but I have watched about 90% of all his matches since USO 2019.
This guy is absolutely elite on HC. As elite as you can be and almost as good as Djokovic.
HOWEVER, HIS BIGGEST PROBLEM HAS BEEN THE BIG SLAM MATCHES.
He has been absolutely a nervous wreck in them except 2019 USO F, where he was nervy in initial sets anyway.
His 2020 AO loss looked massively disappointing because it seemed Med had tamed Stan into submission and that too magnificently. The 2020 USO SF was supposed to be unstoppable force meeting immovable object but Medvedev lost his mind and the match after a rant at the umpire.
2021 AO F was like 10% of the performance that he was putting in before the final throughout the tournament. A complete disaster. Put me off anything tennis related for two solid weeks.
And no it wasn't DJOKOVIC AT AO thing, in 2019 AO he battled a better Djokovic.
So Medvedev has easily been the best HC player on tour since mid 2019. But he has absolutely legendarily bottled every big slam match he has played since then.
The point I am making is, if you remove those 4 specific matches of HC slams
Medvedev>>>>all of the tour on HC.
But his nervous Uncharacteristically error prone performances in the 4 HC slams since his rise has meant no Slams to show for it.
I didn't watch him this week at Toronto due to sleep schedule but I have watched about 90% of all his matches since USO 2019.
This guy is absolutely elite on HC. As elite as you can be and almost as good as Djokovic.
HOWEVER, HIS BIGGEST PROBLEM HAS BEEN THE BIG SLAM MATCHES.
He has been absolutely a nervous wreck in them except 2019 USO F, where he was nervy in initial sets anyway.
His 2020 AO loss looked massively disappointing because it seemed Med had tamed Stan into submission and that too magnificently. The 2020 USO SF was supposed to be unstoppable force meeting immovable object but Medvedev lost his mind and the match after a rant at the umpire.
2021 AO F was like 10% of the performance that he was putting in before the final throughout the tournament. A complete disaster. Put me off anything tennis related for two solid weeks.
And no it wasn't DJOKOVIC AT AO thing, in 2019 AO he battled a better Djokovic.
So Medvedev has easily been the best HC player on tour since mid 2019. But he has absolutely legendarily bottled every big slam match he has played since then.
The point I am making is, if you remove those 4 specific matches of HC slams
Medvedev>>>>all of the tour on HC.
But his nervous Uncharacteristically error prone performances in the 4 HC slams since his rise has meant no Slams to show for it.
James P
G.O.A.T.
This is fair
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
I would have no issues agreeing '04 Agassi was equal to or better than '21 Djokovic at the AO tbh. Though that was clearly far from Djoker's best for obvious reasons. This is of course level wise and using the eye test.
I think it’s clear Djokovic ‘21 > any 34 year old season ever, because Fedal weren’t healthy for all 4 slams and even Laver and Rosewall didn’t have this all court success at age 34…
however on HC only: Agassi was quite fearsome at slams that year. Battling Safin and Federer, two incredible baseliners in strong form and taking both to winnable 5th sets is quite impressive even if he lost. Plus he won Cincy.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Look fact of the matter is his peak is underwhelming. The stan match is proof. He bullied and streamerolled medvedev. This is Wawrinka post knee surgeries.. and the same guy who Medvedev had beaten just 4 months prior in US open.
If someone like Thiem goes god mode, Medvedev will always be the toast. So he can have 10 straight wins, 20 straight wins, it doesn't matter. He is a disaster waiting to happen.
Not saying he won't be one of the favorites on hard court slams and even win a few by law of averages. But his peak level will never reach highest level.
InsideOut900
Legend
The middle ground would be not losing 7-5 6-2 6-2.
Kind of like what Thiem did at AO 20. Lost to Djokovic, but played well enough.
InsideOut900
Legend
Djoko played better in the 21 final compared to 19 4R though.
Now where near the level of lord Berrettini
mike danny
Bionic Poster
If you get pasted like that then it's embarrassing.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Federer was still godd but he wasn't having Medvedev's as msin competition.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Why should Tsits get credit for mugging up against Medvedev afterwards?
mike danny
Bionic Poster
He wasn't, but he was still good enough and Federer wasn't losing to him.
Of course if you think 2004 Federer is losing to this Djokovic, then no comment. And there's also no guarantee the Next Gen is beating Agassi on HC either.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
We used to say that it's hard to won when they have to play the 3 GOATS. We've moved on from that this year with only Djokovic as a threat and they can't beat him on any surface. Time to stop sugarcoating them.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Don't see why not. Don't think his level was far off.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
If a slam still ends up with a Big 3 winning it then nothing really changed so I can't blame those who think like that.
Especially since there weren't other slams to make up for it.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
No, you're just interpreting it wrong. That not the fault of the Fed fans.
aldeayeah
G.O.A.T.
His peak is being unplayable on serve and making zero errors on return. That's enough to give anyone a good match. Just because he's not blasting people off the court, doesn't mean he isn't superior to all those glass cannon types.
The players who have bested him consistently all have something in common: groundstroke variety. Med does struggle against varying heights/weights of ball. His game lacks error margin and that's his big weakness - throw him off and he falls apart. But he's kryptonite against bot types.
I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
Bruhh
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
I think it’s a pretty fair comparison tbh. Will have to see how Djokovic does at the USO but Agassi played extremely well there vs. a very impressive Federer (of course it was only QFs)
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I have 2004 Agassi as a better HC player than 2011 Nadal and the results back up my statement.
Jokervich
Hall of Fame
Sarcasm? Andy Murray. He was always consistent against the lower ranked players, the players who he was "supposed" to beat. Just like Medvedev is. But when it came to the business end of big tournaments against top players, he would always fall short unless those top players had a bad day or they were in a slump of form or they were injured or some other mitigating factor.
GameSetDjokovic
Semi-Pro
Then it must be true lol.
killerboss
Professional
Well I don't think it's quite that simple as in you don't beat the big 3 a total of 29 times (would have been more if he himself didn't get injured) and they are injured, off form or some other mitigating factor every time. Medvedev has got a long way to go before he can be compared to Murray. Medvedev is also facing big 3 when they are in their mid 30s unlike Murray.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Sarcasm AND incredulity! Of the 20 big titles Murray has won, 12 were against the very top players ie. The Big 3 and 6 were against top #10 guys. Are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell us that in all of those case, the opponent in question was, for some odd reason, not playing properly???
To come out with that claptrap you obviously have no understanding of Murray's game or his career at all and even less respect for him.
Jokervich
Hall of Fame
You're going to defend Murray whatever is said about him, I've noticed that about you. Fact is in slams against big 3, he only beat them when they were injured or had bad days or in poor form. Nadal 2008 (tired after FO, Wimbledon epic and Olympics), Nadal 2010 (injured), Federer 2013 (slump of form), Djokovic 2012 (wind) and 2013 (off day). He got trounced whenever these players were playing at their peak.Sarcasm AND incredulity! Of the 20 big titles Murray has won, 12 were against the very top players ie. The Big 3 and 6 were against top #10 guys. Are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell us that in all of those case, the opponent in question was, for some odd reason, not playing properly???
To come out with that claptrap you obviously have no understanding of Murray's game or his career at all and even less respect for him.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
On the contrary, I defend him only when he is being unfairly trashed like you are doing right now because, as I pointed out, you have zero respect for him or any understanding of his game or career. Naturally this "oh he was tired or out of sorts boo hoo " excuses you like to trot out whenever they lose to Murray won't ever apply in reverse will it? Naturally they all played a top of the form Murray whenever they beat him. And yes, that's definitely sarcasm too!!!
mike danny
Bionic Poster
The Nadal wins were good given the way Murray played in those matches. Nadal only became injured in 2010 after Murray was already up 2 sets.
Only Wimb 2013 F is a match where Djokovic was below par. But I don't trust any of the Next Genners to get it done even vs that Djokovic.
killerboss
Professional
Djokovic only Wimbledon off day in 7 finals came against a natural grass player in his prime, instead of past his best player like Federer and not a natural grass player like Nadal. Lmao strange isn't it?
Texas Tennis Fan
Professional
This. Anyway, not saying he is great player and deserves the No. 2 ranking are just pushing an agenda. The numbers don't lie.
One of the most impressive things to me is that he really improved his play and results at both the FO and at Wimbledon this year. He will be a force to recon in the future and maybe in a couple of weeks.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
That Roddick is a better player than Nadal? I don't know what's up for interpretation.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Why couldn't Fed beat ol' Agassi?
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
I didn't say it's a guarantee that the NextGen would beat Agassi. I honestly doubt that they would beat him, on any surface. My point is that age alone isn't a reason to say they should be beating Agassi and Djokovic. And I do think a 34-year-old Djokovic could beat a 34-year-old Agassi (and if you don't think that, then no comment).
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Roddick was better than Nadal on at least three separate occasions. Obviously, Nadal doesn’t always play on the level of a 20-time Slam champion which is why he lost three matches to Roddick and has his fair share of upsets even in the Slams. No one’s saying Roddick would beat peak Nadal: the argument is that peak Roddick can take down a below-his-best Nadal.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
No -- stop. Everyone understands that peak Roddick can beat non-peak Nadal, because it actually happened. I'm talking about the hypotheticals that are thrown around (and exaggerating slightly to make a point, but only slightly).
Mainad
Bionic Poster
He did, on almost every occasion they met:
Andre Agassi VS Roger Federer | Head 2 Head | H2H | ATP Tour | Tennis
Head to head records for players in men's professional tennis. View rivalry results and stats for matches on the ATP Tour.
www.atptour.com
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
He did, on almost every occasion they met:
Andre Agassi VS Roger Federer | Head 2 Head | H2H | ATP Tour | Tennis
Head to head records for players in men's professional tennis. View rivalry results and stats for matches on the ATP Tour.
We're talking 5-sets to beat a 34-year-old Agassi? And Fed is truly a better player than Tsitsipas. And Djokovic (even old Djokovic) is a better player than Agassi.
We could be saying the same thing about Berrettini in 15 years. He lost the first three matches, then goes on a tear...
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Wind screwed up the fourth and fifth sets and basically neutralized the playing field. Very likely that match ends in four for Roger in normal conditions, though the other part of it is that Agassi played a good match himself. Novak had the same happen to him in the 2012 US Open final.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
You play the conditions as well as the opponent. That might be the one thing that has remained constant in tennis from the beginning.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Wind changes the playing field because it forces both players to change their game. If one player is dominating before the wind with a winning game, they get screwed worse because they have to abandon that game in order to better deal with the conditions. The losing player has less to sacrifice. That’s why wind is almost universally known as the great equalizer, a phenomenon that I don’t think happens in any other condition because players generally train for different surfaces and the like. The wind ruins rhythm which takes the advantages away from the dominating player.
Kinda like how Djokovic played literally his best US Open in 2012 but when the wind struck in the final, it evened out the match and put him within reaching distance of Murray.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
And Agassi is famously a wind player. And night conditions help Djokovic. It still took five sets for young Fed to dispatch ol' Agassi. And Tsitsipas took ol' Djokovic to 5-sets, too. And Djokovic is a better player than Agassi.
Omega_7000
Legend
Djokodal couldn't care less about masters....he would be losing all the finals if Djokodal cared or participated
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Sure, he could, but then again a 34 year old Agassi went toe to toe with a 23 y.o. ATG at his peak an opponent 34 yo Djokovic doesn't have.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
He could. He won 8 in a row vs him.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
It depends which versions of Roddick vs which versions of Nadal. Wimb 2004/2009 Roddick > Wimb 2011 Nadal? Hell yeah.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I wouldn't say he bottled all those matches though. Thiem completely outplayed him when he was leading in both sets 2 and 3. Thiem's power was too much for him, and almost too much for anyone when he is playing well.
He should have ended Wawrinka in 4 though and he should not have lost that match, but couldn't find the extra gear when he needed it to win that.
Gave it his all against Nadal and honestly, all the younger players are now either beating Nadal in hardcourt Slams or pushing him really hard: Thiem (USO 2018, AO 2020), Tsitsipas (AO 2021), Medvevdev (USO 2019) and Zverev (AO 2017).
Could have played a better AO final for sure, but I think a lot of that was because he wasn't expecting Djokovic to play as well as he did (that's the best match Djokovic ever played against him) and the crowd was heavily pro Djokovic which didn't help matters, plus it's a daunting task taking on the AO GOAT in a final.
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