My Pickleball Lesson: Great Format!

[I Dink Too Much]

The snow is finally tapering down in the Rocky Mountain High Country. Some of the guys I played with all winter formed a "3 and Me" lesson with a local Pro. It was definitely worth the money! In fact we're going to make it an every-other-week event.

At 67, I was the youngest student of the three(!). We're each 4.0+ DUPR and the Pro is a 33 year-old "kid" who is a 5.30 DUPR. (Believe me, there's a large difference between my 4.3 and the Pro's 5.3. He's ... smoother ... about everything he does on the court than any of the rest of us.) He doesn't necessarily hit any shot "harder, with more spin, or earlier," but his PLACEMENT was significantly more consistent. I think I'd say we three students had greater margins of error -- and therefore, more balls which got "just high enough" to attack -- than the Pro did.

We played games in a rotation. The Pro would interrupt play (on average) about every 5th or 6th point. He was looking for patterns in our play and, MAN, did he spot some helpful things.

What was also eye-opening was the Pro contradicted some of the youtube instructors' "rules". (Example: I have a deep drive-slice return of serve which is difficult for my 4.0 friends to handle. Zane Navratil's (famous) video decrying the slice return motivated me to develop a topspin return. "Pro" told me my topspin return was good, but my slice return should be my primary weapon because it's such an offensive weapon. I guess the good news for me is I now can hit either return, but I'm not going to abandon my drive-slice return.)

The other talent Pro had, which impressed me was how early he picked-up on where the opponents' ball was going. He'd be calling, "Yours!" THE INSTANT the ball was leaving our opponent's paddle. (I thought I was good at spotting the trajectory; but this guy was astonishing!) When I asked him how come he could do that, he said, "You've almost been playing two years; I've been playing for six. You'll get better at spotting the trajectories...."

What lesson formats work best for you? Please share!

- Dink

 

[ByeByePoly]

The snow is finally tapering down in the Rocky Mountain High Country. Some of the guys I played with all winter formed a "3 and Me" lesson with a local Pro. It was definitely worth the money! In fact we're going to make it an every-other-week event.

At 67, I was the youngest student of the three(!). We're each 4.0+ DUPR and the Pro is a 33 year-old "kid" who is a 5.30 DUPR. (Believe me, there's a large difference between my 4.3 and the Pro's 5.3. He's ... smoother ... about everything he does on the court than any of the rest of us.) He doesn't necessarily hit any shot "harder, with more spin, or earlier," but his PLACEMENT was significantly more consistent. I think I'd say we three students had greater margins of error -- and therefore, more balls which got "just high enough" to attack -- than the Pro did.

We played games in a rotation. The Pro would interrupt play (on average) about every 5th or 6th point. He was looking for patterns in our play and, MAN, did he spot some helpful things.

What was also eye-opening was the Pro contradicted some of the youtube instructors' "rules". (Example: I have a deep drive-slice return of serve which is difficult for my 4.0 friends to handle. Zane Navratil's (famous) video decrying the slice return motivated me to develop a topspin return. "Pro" told me my topspin return was good, but my slice return should be my primary weapon because it's such an offensive weapon. I guess the good news for me is I now can hit either return, but I'm not going to abandon my drive-slice return.)

The other talent Pro had, which impressed me was how early he picked-up on where the opponents' ball was going. He'd be calling, "Yours!" THE INSTANT the ball was leaving our opponent's paddle. (I thought I was good at spotting the trajectory; but this guy was astonishing!) When I asked him how come he could do that, he said, "You've almost been playing two years; I've been playing for six. You'll get better at spotting the trajectories...."

What lesson formats work best for you? Please share!

- Dink

I have never had a lesson … but will comment on Zane’s “don’t hit slice return of serve”. What bs … and I really like Zane … even like his bs. If I remember correctly … when I watched his video and Immediately said bs … he was claiming our backspin adds to their topspin. Oh please … does he not remember his 1hbh tennis slice strokes? You hit low slice and the bounce removes the spin and keeps the bounce low. Same happens with wiffle … court surface captures the spin and ball bounces lower (if lucky skips). If he wants to make the case your slice volley adds to their topspin volley, that is probably true.

I have a good 1hbh slice return, and it’s surprising how many decent level rec players struggle to make the swing adjustment (aim higher) to get return over net. Even the ones that do make the adjustment are in a guessing game on how much higher to aim. I don’t hit it much in open play against easier opponents because there is no fun in not getting point started. I hit it every now and then for laughs … it really messes with newbies. I also generally won’t hit it on big points against stronger opponents. Since I hit it lower over net for driving slice, more chance to hit top of net.

Yes … there were different levels of ball tracking and early movement in tennis also. I thought I was very good at it, played decent s&v tennis singles. One day my doubles partner was a high level ex-D1 player, and dude was already moving at net before my internal calculation was done. I don’t track the wiffle as good/quick as I would like to. I just chalked it up to indoor lighting and aging eyes … but I’m at 15 months … I will hope I get better at it. I play at two indoor facilities … and I would love both of them to double the lighting. I’ve always played better tennis outside in sunlight, but don’t see outside pickleball likely in our future.

 

[I Dink Too Much]

I play at two indoor facilities … and I would love both of them to double the lighting. I’ve always played better tennis outside in sunlight, but don’t see outside pickleball likely in our future.

What part of the country are you in that you won't be playing outdoors? (This, from a guy who just last summer built is own court on his property....) My buddies CANNOT WAIT for the snow to melt so we can play a lot! The snow is melting...!

- Dink

 

[ByeByePoly]

What part of the country are you in that you won't be playing outdoors? (This, from a guy who just last summer built is own court on his property....) My buddies CANNOT WAIT for the snow to melt so we can play a lot! The snow is melting...!

- Dink

Midwe$t … always preferred hot summer outdoor tennis to winter indoor tennis. But that was tennis … pretty sure indoors AC and skipping wind with 26g wiffle will be our retirement pickleball years.

 

[I Dink Too Much]

Just inaugurated our court with a 3 & Me lesson with an excellent Instructor. I have only about five things to work on in the next two weeks...!

Now I need a nap!

- Dink

 

[ByeByePoly]

Just inaugurated our court with a 3 & Me lesson with an excellent Instructor. I have only about five things to work on in the next two weeks...!

Now I need a nap!

- Dink

good job … broke in the court.

Make sure you have a good blower. I had a friend that always wanted a tennis court at his house and finally got one. One day at the tennis club someone asked how the new court was working out. He said he was spending more time clearing the court than playing tennis. I think he had some drainage issues with dirt and rain. Leaves are easier … I used to take a blower with my ball machine to the park court.

 

[I Dink Too Much]

good job … broke in the court.

Make sure you have a good blower.

That's just what my son made sure I did. With this Ego blower I can stand at the net and blow the pine needles completely off the baseline! (He uses it to blow Frisbees off the roof without needing a ladder.)

Still have to do some dressing of the dirt border to the concrete, but having your own court is great! (Also ... suddenly we're really popular.)

- Dink

 

[ByeByePoly]

fyi … saw your comment in Joola 3 review thread. I hit serves with the Hyperion today for about 5 minutes … did not play points. Felt hollow and sounded different … kind of like the new Gearbox PPE. I didn’t notice any crazy power or spin on the serve, and that was after playing all morning with my lower power Vatic Prism Flash. Definitely more power than Prism, but I was expecting more. I just play better (win more) with the Prism control after going through several more powerful paddles. I don’t think I will be searching for more power in the near future, I hit hard enough coming from tennis, and don’t want to shorten strokes to accommodate a paddle. I would buy more spin … and that is saying something because the Prism hits high tier spin.

This tennis player has pretty much been deprogrammed … my first instinct is now becoming drops and resets rather than drive everything. Works … what a strange little game.

 

[I Dink Too Much]

We are of like minds, BBP. I love the control and spin I get from my CRBN 1 16mm; not looking for more power.

I *have* had fun adapting to almost zero backswing, and still being able to crank some topspin. My friends keep saying, "Oh! There's another of his tennis shots!"

The truth is, I love the soft game. Many former tennis players are bangers; not me. (In tennis I was known for my drop-volleys; I think that skill really helped me develop good resets quickly.)

- Dink

 

[ByeByePoly]

We are of like minds, BBP. I love the control and spin I get from my CRBN 1 16mm; not looking for more power.

I *have* had fun adapting to almost zero backswing, and still being able to crank some topspin. My friends keep saying, "Oh! There's another of his tennis shots!"

The truth is, I love the soft game. Many former tennis players are bangers; not me. (In tennis I was known for my drop-volleys; I think that skill really helped me develop good resets quickly.)

- Dink

I had a good 1hbh drop shot in tennis … which is ironic given how long I waited to hit more 3rd shot drops in pickleball. I had the touch all along … I just didn’t want to hit drops. Now I do … actually is fun feathering them over net.

I kept some backswing … I have to cling to some tennis and you aren’t really rushed at baseline.

The game reminds me of one of the best golf sand trap tips I ever heard … “don’t hit the ball in a sand trap”. In pickleball … the equivalent is “don’t pop the ball up”. Most chances to use power in pickleball doubles was assisted by opponents. The Johns bros are the best doubles team because they “assist” the least.

My goal is to be rock solid at the kitchen and getting to the kitchen, but I have the drives/passes and topspin lobs in the bag from tennis.

I still hope to add drilling … I have just got short periods on occasion. I got to drill dinks some today and that would not take too long to be very exhausting. It’s one thing to dink during a game … apparently a whole different animal if you went non-stop for ???.

 

[tennytive]

The truth is, I love the soft game. Many former tennis players are bangers; not me.

- Dink

Me too, but sadly more and more players are hitting the 3rd shot drive and still trying to overpower their opponents. No matter how many new players I advise that pball is not tennis, they insist on showing off their 2 hand backhand tennis strokes from the baseline only to see their shot dropped into the kitchen for an easy winner. Do they learn? No, they just try to hit the ball harder the next time. When returns of serve come to me and I hit a 3rd shot drop many times the opponents hit the ball right into the net because they have no pace to work with. Does my partner learn from my example? No s/he continues to blast away and most of the time the ball turns into a sitter that is an easy put away. It's not easy finding like minded players, most are like minded with the banger approach.
BTW I watched that paddle review also. It looks like a great paddle but the players aren't playing pickleball. 2 stand at the baseline feeding easy balls to the net players instead of working their way to the net and neutralizing the advantage. I see this over and over with all the reviews, A few shots back and forth, and then an easy high ball that someone puts away and they all laugh. I guess the idea is to end points quickly and then talk about the paddle's spin, touch and feel even though none was used in the points being played. Nice to see they're all having fun, but how do I judge a paddle by such a limited display? At that level do players really want to spend $300 on a paddle? If they do, then I guess more "power" to them, not me.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Me too, but sadly more and more players are hitting the 3rd shot drive and still trying to overpower their opponents. No matter how many new players I advise that pball is not tennis, they insist on showing off their 2 hand backhand tennis strokes from the baseline only to see their shot dropped into the kitchen for an easy winner. Do they learn? No, they just try to hit the ball harder the next time. When returns of serve come to me and I hit a 3rd shot drop many times the opponents hit the ball right into the net because they have no pace to work with. Does my partner learn from my example? No s/he continues to blast away and most of the time the ball turns into a sitter that is an easy put away. It's not easy finding like minded players, most are like minded with the banger approach.
BTW I watched that paddle review also. It looks like a great paddle but the players aren't playing pickleball. 2 stand at the baseline feeding easy balls to the net players instead of working their way to the net and neutralizing the advantage. I see this over and over with all the reviews, A few shots back and forth, and then an easy high ball that someone puts away and they all laugh. I guess the idea is to end points quickly and then talk about the paddle's spin, touch and feel even though none was used in the points being played. Nice to see they're all having fun, but how do I judge a paddle by such a limited display? At that level do players really want to spend $300 on a paddle? If they do, then I guess more "power" to them, not me.

If you play open play a lot like I do … there two types of games. Games I get to hit 3rd shots, and games I might as well check my texts on my phone. It is comical how fast even newbies learn to play keep away.

 

[I Dink Too Much]

... sadly more and more players are hitting the 3rd shot drive and still trying to overpower their opponents.

And there's a trend toward driving the 5ths and 7ths and 9ths...!

Tony S. (5.0+) has a youtube channel (PickleBurner) where he says, "Sure. Drive the 3rds occasionally, but never drive 5ths, etc." (He does a lot of data analysis, which demonstrated the folly of driving 5ths, plus.) I've adapted that "rule" and my winning percentage has increased significantly.

There are still a LOT of my 4.0+ & 5.0 friends who bang way more than they know they should. (They'd admit they bang too much ... but they enjoy it.)

It's not easy finding like minded players, most are like minded with the banger approach.

Too true.

BTW I watched that paddle review also. It looks like a great paddle but the players aren't playing pickleball. 2 stand at the baseline feeding easy balls to the net players instead of working their way to the net and neutralizing the advantage. I see this over and over with all the reviews, A few shots back and forth, and then an easy high ball that someone puts away and they all laugh.

Yes. Happens a lot. (I suspect the TP reviewers are each TW staffers who agreed to also do pickleball ... but it's just my guess.) Their comments were more helpful than watching them play. After that review I went to Braydon's site (PickleballEffect). His review reinforced the TP guys'. So I suppose they did a good job.

... do players really want to spend $300 on a paddle? If they do, then I guess more "power" to them, not me.

I'm with you. But I'm also not "that guy" who stood in line outside the Apple Store for two days so I could be among the first to own the iPhone 10.

- Dink

 

[ByeByePoly]

And there's a trend toward driving the 5ths and 7ths and 9ths...!

Tony S. (5.0+) has a youtube channel (PickleBurner) where he says, "Sure. Drive the 3rds occasionally, but never drive 5ths, etc." (He does a lot of data analysis, which demonstrated the folly of driving 5ths, plus.) I've adapted that "rule" and my winning percentage has increased significantly.

There are still a LOT of my 4.0+ & 5.0 friends who bang way more than they know they should. (They'd admit they bang too much ... but they enjoy it.)



Too true.



Yes. Happens a lot. (I suspect the TP reviewers are each TW staffers who agreed to also do pickleball ... but it's just my guess.) Their comments were more helpful than watching them play. After that review I went to Braydon's site (PickleballEffect). His review reinforced the TP guys'. So I suppose they did a good job.



I'm with you. But I'm also not "that guy" who stood in line outside the Apple Store for two days so I could be among the first to own the iPhone 10.

- Dink

can you bang too much?

I played a good player in league who had a good approach imo when playing rec opponents that were new to him. He would drive first and observe how they handled it. If they couldn’t handle the drive/pace … kept hitting it. Otherwise … mainly drops.

I think there are dynamics at play that alter a 100% cookie cutter rule adherence. There are 5th shots that are there for put away. There are return of serves and transition resets where due to movement/stretch/balance the higher percentage play is to just hit low over net rather than try and drop in kitchen. Live to keep the point alive. I had tried to express that thought before about resets, but I did a poor job explaining what I meant. I suspected I might have been wrong with that strategy, but soon after watched Ignatowich say basically the exact same thing … low over net point still alive way better than drop/reset popup or hitting into net. For me … right now in drop/reset skill acquisition mode … I try to drop/reset everything including the low percentage because 1) deprogram tennis mind 2) need every rep in games because very little drilling 3) learn boundaries/capabilities that dictate when it’s time to bail on perfect prescribed shot. I actually think the quick decisions probably a big factor in level of play.

 

[I Dink Too Much]

If you play open play a lot like I do … there two types of games. Games I get to hit 3rd shots, and games I might as well check my texts on my phone. It is comical how fast even newbies learn to play keep away.

Ha!!! We're having similar experiences.

Tuesday I played in a nearby Association's 4.0+ Round Robin. (Easily half the players are barely 3.5s.) In our 5th rotation -- the strongest matchup of the afternoon -- I was paired with a good woman player against two strong men.

I got to serve ... or return serve. The guys played everything else to my partner. When we were up 5-1 I commented, "I could go get a drink of water after my initial shot." She smiled and said, "They're targeted the female." She loved it when I remarked, "... to their own peril."

We won that game 11-1. The men were so focused on keeping the ball away from me (on a very windy afternoon) they missed a lot of shots.

- Dink

 

[I Dink Too Much]

I think there are dynamics at play that alter a 100% cookie cutter rule adherence.

Agreed ... with your whole post, too. But this 100% issue is why I put "rule" in quotes. I guess I should have used more words, but you expressed it just fine.

- Dink

 

[ByeByePoly]

Ha!!! We're having similar experiences.

Tuesday I played in a nearby Association's 4.0+ Round Robin. (Easily half the players are barely 3.5s.) In our 5th rotation -- the strongest matchup of the afternoon -- I was paired with a good woman player against two strong men.

I got to serve ... or return serve. The guys played everything else to my partner. When we were up 5-1 I commented, "I could go get a drink of water after my initial shot." She smiled and said, "They're targeted the female." She loved it when I remarked, "... to their own peril."

We won that game 11-1. The men were so focused on keeping the ball away from me (on a very windy afternoon) they missed a lot of shots.

- Dink

I think that “similar experience” repeats itself across the country everyday. It’s a trap in rec play because if you encroach partner territory like the pros … you are asking for trouble. Even with a wife that played competitive tennis and understands the “why”. We learned to stack but stopped because it’s more fun playing both sides. My new approach is to upgrade wife’s 3rd shot drop. I want it to occur to the other side … “crap, keep away isn’t working … I would rather the dude hit a drive than see that drop all game”.

I think doubles pickleball DUPR of an individual is comical … only thing that would be accurate is a partnership rating from tournament results. I mean, if you watched me play with and against ex-D1 tennis player with four good guys on the court over last two weeks I would get one ranking. Watch me during an open play hit and giggle game and how would one know. I had the same thought about USTA tennis ratings … no distinction between singles and doubles, and doubles ranking wasn’t a partner ranking. As we got older there was a reason we looked for young 4.5 singles players rather than send our #1 doubles player to the singles court. Two reasons actually … called legs.