Proof Nadal is better than his rivals

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Nadalgaenger, Feb 28, 2013.

  1. Nadalgaenger

    Nadalgaenger Professional

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    The most convincing evidence of Nadal's greatness relative to rivals like Fed, Djoker, and others is the high esteem in which other top players hold him.

    Murray, Ferrer, Berdych, Tipsarevic--all consider Nadal the toughest player to beat.

    And Djokovic has been quoted as saying that Nadal is the greatest player of all time.

    Nadal will not pass Federer but he will come close. And if he ends up with 15 majors or more, he will be GOAT because of the H2H and Fed's WEAK ERA.
     
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  2. Nadalgaenger

    Nadalgaenger Professional

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    #2
  3. Colin

    Colin Professional

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    And what about everyone but that tiny handful of players you mentioned?

    Frankly, I'm not going to put much stock into the opinions on this subject of three grinders, a jerk who has personal issues with Fed and a pseudointellectual misanthrope with a tattoo addiction.
     
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  4. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    Just remind me, did Rosol shoulder bump Nadal or Federer ?

    If Nadal gets to 15 and Fed stays on 17, then he does have a claim to GPAT .
    ..
    ...
    Greatest Pusher of All Time.
     
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  5. Nadalgaenger

    Nadalgaenger Professional

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    Who is the misanthrope? Tipsarevic?
     
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  6. Nadalgaenger

    Nadalgaenger Professional

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    Nadal will make it to 15. Lance won't have more than 10.
     
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  7. Goosehead

    Goosehead Hall of Fame

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    fwahahahhaaaaaa love it..last one must be Tanko Quitsarevic :)
     
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  8. Nadalgaenger

    Nadalgaenger Professional

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    Murray

    Has a winning record against Federer (11-9) and a crap record against Nadal (5-11)

    Djokovic also is pretty even with Federer (13-15) but even despite the infamous 7-match win streak trails Rafa 14-19 in the H2H.

    Basically Rafa will retire with all of his chief rivals having losing records against him.

    Fed, by contrast, will retire with losing records to Nadal, Murray, and likely to Djokovic. And yet Fed is the GOAT???
     
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  9. Goosehead

    Goosehead Hall of Fame

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    tennis isnt about h2h records, its about winning the tournaments :confused:..i suppose that might have something to do with folk calling federer the goat :confused:
     
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  10. Nadalgaenger

    Nadalgaenger Professional

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    Federer is a hard-court specialist, Nadal a clay-court specialist.
    3 out of 4 majors are on fast surfaces.
    Hence, Fed has more majors.

    Nadal will have far more Master's 1000 titles than Fed. Despite being younger and injured all the time, he already has as many. Those are arguably harder to win than Major's anyway, since you compete against a denser field and don't play patsy players in the first 3 rounds.
     
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  11. Goosehead

    Goosehead Hall of Fame

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    fast surfaces ???? :) ha ha..you are really funny :shock: there are no fast surfaces..whats up with you :)

    fast surfaces ??? fwahahahahahahahaaaa, oh what a card you are :neutral:
     
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  12. Tafmatch

    Tafmatch Rookie

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    Do you see the contradiction between what you say in the first and second part of your post?

    I don't agree with either part by the way. Oh, and lol about your use of the word 'proof'.
     
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  13. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Greatness is dominating 4 consecutive years(2004-2007) not racking up impressive H2H while missing major stretches of time because your playing style involves grinding your knees to dust.
     
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  14. coloskier

    coloskier Legend

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    Throw out all the matches on clay and you'll get the real head to head.
     
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  15. Goosehead

    Goosehead Hall of Fame

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    Proof OP is better at being destroyed in his own thread than other poasters :neutral:
     
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  16. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    You ask his generation. Ask Davydenko, Soderling, Youzhny, Ferrer, Hewitt, Roddick, Nalbandian, Safin, Ferrero, Moya, Fish, Blake, Gonzalez, Henman et al. how they feel before you come up with these conclusions.
     
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  17. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Good luck with that lol. 4 more majors? hahaha
     
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  18. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    It's not like Federer has played Djokovic Murray Nadal mostly after his prime years LOL...

    Connors had a losing record against Borg, McEnroe and Lendl because he kept playing until he was 40 or so and he was respectively 4, 7 and 8 years older than them. Let's see what stuff Nadal Djokovic and Murray come up with when they are 30.
     
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  19. Minion

    Minion Rookie

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    lol! Its ok dude, relax, everything will be fine. Nadal is the bestest ever:)
     
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  20. axel89

    axel89 Banned

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    nadal is the GOAT federer sucks
     
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  21. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Are tennis courts named after players because they had great H2H against players, or because they were more successful than their peers? I don't think it's called the BJK tennis center because she took Goolagong and Wade to task in the semis but never won anything.
     
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  22. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    But how can Rafa be the GOAT due to H2H if he has a poor H2H with Nole ? He could not beat a prime Nole in 2011 (whereas Fed could !!).

    If Fed benefitted from a weak era, then so did Rafa, winning his slams before Joker peaked. (Now Nole has a weak era since Fed and Rafa are finished). Soon the weak era of Murray's domination will commence *rolls eyes* :D
     
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  23. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    He has a losing H2H with Rosol. How can he be the GOAT when he has a losing H2H with a guy ranked outside the top 50? :twisted:

    Let's see what Ralph's H2H is with Nole when he retires. My guess is he will be on the losing end.

    Because it's not really fair to compare eras or generations, the best way to find the GOAT is to look at GS glory. 17>11>6. Once these three retire we'll know who was the best by their GS count.
     
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  24. Nadalgaenger

    Nadalgaenger Professional

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    There is so much Nadal hate on here it isn't funny.

    Why is it so hard for people to recognize him as an all-time great. He currently cannot be called GOAT, but if he can come back and win another 4 or so majors then the conversation has to be started again.
     
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  25. Nadalgaenger

    Nadalgaenger Professional

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    Dude: Nadal has a WINNING record against Nole too (and that despite Lance's domination of him in 2011)!!!

    Check the stats next time!
     
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  26. Nadalgaenger

    Nadalgaenger Professional

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    What is a "poaster"?
     
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  27. Nadalgaenger

    Nadalgaenger Professional

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    Rafa won most of his slams against the GOAT!! He beat the GOAT on his favorite surface! In 2008, Fed was supremely dominant at Wimby until the Nadal match--he hadn't dropped a set going into that showdown!

    Nadal did to the GOAT what the GOAT could never do to him--knock him off on his favorite surface. Sorry, but Fed's FO title was a bit of a joke--he didn't beat a single top player on clay and almost lost to Haas and Del Potro along the way.
     
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  28. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    I hoap you will understand some day as you read moar poasts here.
     
    #28
  29. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    A lot of people recognize him as an all time great, some as THE clay all-time great (the other think he might be tied with Borg). He is without a doubt in the top 10 of all time. But your thread is not about him being a great player, it is about him being better than is rival because he has a winning H2H against, AND was clever enough to lose against more different players than them. You can't really hope an interesting discussion with these kind of premise. Just like the other thread with Fed being fun while Nole is boring has few chance that Nole's fan will acknowledge that Fed's game is beautiful.
     
    #29
  30. zam88

    zam88 Professional

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    If federer could have only:

    known he could not beat rafa on clay and thus tanked almost all clay semis except for the 09 RG when Rafa was knocked out, and then quit overall after 2010 AO he could have had +H2H against Djoker and Murray (and a near even record against rafa) and 16 majors.

    and somehow i think that would've been better to a lot of the people here on TT than him staying around, making more clay finals (that he lost to the clay freaking GOAT!... do you realize if Nadal were just a great clay player and not the Cgoat that federer would have 3 french open titles and a CYGS?) and winning more masters and even another major.

    Fed's prime did not meet up with Djoker's prime or Murray's prime... if anything it's shocking that way post prime federer can still beat and or make it REALLY uncomfortable for these prime 25 y.o. players.


    If Federer chooses to continue playing, then yes, he's going to end up with a -H2H against the other top 3.

    Should he quit?

    what's better... quitting now to preserve H2H? quitting in 2010 to preserve H2H? or getting possibly another major (which is entirely possible)
     
    #30
  31. ledwix

    ledwix Hall of Fame

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    So? If we compare to Fed, Nadal's resume off clay is incredibly weak sauce. Mainly he is the clay GOAT which is why he has so many slams. If he wins only 4 majors across 3 of the 4 majors, that is not the kind of versatile greatness of someone who is better than another player who at his worst three slams has won a total of 10 titles.

    Nadal never went into his career thinking, "I want to have positive H2Hs against everyone." He wanted to win titles and become a prestigious champion, which he has done very well. But Federer winning more titles than Nadal each of the last two years even though Federer is "done" according to so many should tell you something about greatness.

    Also, if you really wanna go there, then Nadal's three slams in 2010 were joke draws. But that would be stupid to say also; talking about draws like this is silly because draws balance out over time and Federer got to five slam finals on every slam. Not like he hasn't proven himself lol.
     
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  32. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    well no crap. ur the one who just said he is GOAT already...

    epic fail
     
    #32
  33. Vrad

    Vrad Semi-Pro

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    That's the problem with posts like The OP's. They imply Federer would have been a greater player if only he lost more, and earlier in tournaments.

    Which is why it is so easy to just dismiss them, because that premise is clearly laughable.
     
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  34. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    Lol, no you wouldn't.

    Uhm, Fed has had a losing record against Nadal since he was in his peak, and I believe that is the case with Murray also...
     
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  35. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    Yep. Nadal is GOAT.
     
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  36. mike danny

    mike danny Legend

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    how come the weak era works for fed and not for rafa? they played against the exact same opposition from 2005 and federer has still won more slams. also if fed thrived in a weak era how does this make nadal's win so great if he beat the overrated federer?
     
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  37. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    And yet... 17>11>6>1......


    :oops:
     
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  38. mike danny

    mike danny Legend

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    i am sure murray would throw all his 11 victories for more grand slams and a better record than 1-6 in grand slam finals. so he has a winning H2H over federer. good for him. at least federer does not have such a pathetic record in slam finals
     
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  39. Anaconda

    Anaconda Hall of Fame

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    Hrbaty says hi!
     
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  40. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Yea out of 20 matches Federer played Murray exact 2 times before 2008. Unless you consider post 2008 as prime Federer which I'm sure you do as you want Hafa's victories in him in 2008/2009 to be more valuable.

    With Nadal the h2h was close at the end of 2007 as well with Nadal leading just 8-6 and 6 of his wins on clay obviously (like you expect anything different than Nadal piling up the h2h's thanks to clay).
     
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  41. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    You do realise that Nadal's outdoor HC record against Federer is 5-2 right? It should've been 6-1 if it wasn't for that massive choke in Miami 2005 where Rafa was up 2 sets and a break in the third.

    Truth is, Nadal hadn't developed his game well enough to make it to HC slam finals and your argument that Fed "would've" beat Rafa if he did is absolute rubbish. Fed is LUCKY that Rafa wasn't making those HC slam finals because teenage Rafa was beating peak Federer in HC matches.

    Rafa made his first HC slam final at age 22, the same age as Federer, but for some reason you expect Rafa to have been better than Federer at HC majors when age 17-21? LOL.

    Federer played as well as he ever did apart from his serving in the 09AO final and still lost. Federer also was playing very well in 2012 AO and still lost when he met Rafa. Peak Federer was struggling to beat an early 20's Nadal at WIMBLEDON his "backyard" slam.

    As for "taking away" Rafa's clay wins, why don't you take away Fed's indoor wins?

    And when Rafa was making HC and grass slam finals in 2010 onwards where was Federer? Rafa made it to WIM2010, USO2010, WIM2011, USO2011 and AO2012 finals. He only played Federer in 2012 AO because ot was a semi and Rafa beat him there. Just like he would've beat him at any of those other tournaments had Fed managed to turn up.

    And it's not shocking that the following TEENAGERS beat PEAK Federer:

    Berdych, Nadal (many times), Murray and Novak (actually think he might've just turned 20). Gasquet also did it IIRC.

    It's not shocking that a 34+ year old Agassi pushed peak Federer to the limit in majors? LOL.

    Murray's h2h against Federer before 2010 was 6-4 :oops:

    And if Fed retired in 2010, it would not help his case against Rafa whatsoever because he lost in HC and Grass slam finals to Rafa. Fed has never beat Nadal in a HC major. EVER. That's a fact that you have to live with.

    So really, if he quit after 2010 AO, he'd have a +ve h2h against only Novak who was only aged 19-22 and even that h2h record wouldn't have been that great (9-5 IIRC).

    In 2010 Federer was 28 turning 29, he was not old, not even in tennis terms it's just a lame excuse you ****s bring up all the time but to no avail.
     
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  42. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    Weak era :twisted:

    I'd say 2010.

    But really, I was just pointing out that it isn't like Fed had a winning h2h against Rafa and Andy during his prime (even if you only consider it until 2008), and they've just won matches after he's declined.
     
    #42
  43. Sorana fan

    Sorana fan Banned

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    Throw out hard court matches. That's not a proper tennis surface. Clay and grass are.
     
    #43
  44. ledwix

    ledwix Hall of Fame

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    Nadal overall matches up well with his rivals and peaks well, but is more susceptible to getting Rosol'd, hence a lower semifinal streak than Federer and Djokovic. The combination of those two factors is why he can keep his H2Hs so amazing, not necessarily because he is "better" than them outright. Murray of course will never be the player Nadal is, but Djokovic has a shot and Federer is still way out in front.
     
    #44
  45. ctoth666

    ctoth666 Professional

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    I think Djokovic and Nadal are both better than Federer at this point. It kind of pains me to say it, but I think the sport just keeps evolving and every generation surpasses the previous. Nadal and Djokovic in particular are just animals in a way that Federer never was, and they might not be as talented but the brutality of their tennis neutralizes talent.
     
    #45
  46. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    It's funny how Rafa's success is put down to technology with racquets but Federer's isn't put down to technology with surfaces...
     
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  47. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Seriously there have been much better "Nadal is better than Fed" posts. This is really weak and I'm surprised anyone got worked up over it, you have to troll harder. Btw, Ferrer thinks Nadal is the toughest to beat? Have you compared his H2H with Nadal and his H2H with Federer? :lol: You can also compare Davydenko vs Nadal and Davydenko vs Federer. You know if you're just gonna pick a bunch of players (seriously, Tipsy, Ferrer and Berdych? those greats of the game??)

    Man I could write a better nadal is the GOAT thread :lol:
     
    #47
  48. Polaris

    Polaris Hall of Fame

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    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
     
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  49. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    lol bringing up a Nadal choke in Miami but then later mentioning AO2009 which was a massive choke from Federer in the 3rd set. I like how we can claim back matches because Nadal choked, because Federer choked several matches. Rome 2006, Hamburg 2008, AO 2009, Dubai 2006, even RG 2011. This means adjusting for chokes the H2H is something like 14-14.

    In best of 3 yes. In best of 5 he lost the only match they played and that was only a master final which Federer did not put so much effort into. If Nadal could have really beat peak Fed on HC in best of 5 there's no reason he shouldn't have hacked down everyone else. True there is some matchup issue but at that time Nadal was not really good enough to beat Fed in a HC slam - he barely managed it at his peak when Federer was past his and mentally beat up vs Nads at the AO2009.

    If you're going to go on about how Nadal was better than Federer on HC at 17 then he is a better player than Federer and thus why wouldn't you expect him to do better than Federer by making HC slams at an earlier age?

    He choked. Next. If it's unfair to expect Nadal at 18-21 to win HC majors why is it fair to expect 3o year old Fed to beat a prime Nadal?

    This is true. Clay counts as much as anything, but clay is the only surface where Nadal owns Fed. Elsewhere they are very even with a slight edge to Federer.

    True again, the situation reversed and then Federer was the one missing finals. Shame though it couldn't truly reverse with Federer meeting Nadal 3 times in 4 weeks on fast indoor hard all the time and hardly playing him anywhere else.

    Yeah it does help though that Nadal never played him in a HC major til 2009 when Federer had won more HC slams than anyone in history and would only win one more. When you've won 8 already you can say you're past the best HC slam days (just like Djokovic beating nadal at RG this year wouldn't mean much since Nadal has already racked up 7 and is bound to lose again soon) 28 will also be considered old for Nadal though. Oh I get his body is old, but Fed;s mind was old at 27. He had 4 years of making an insane amount of finals so a mental dip was always bound to come. Federer was non stop from the start of the year til the finish for 4 years. Not that he became terrible, but when you have a rival like Nadal, losing 5 % and them gaining 5% is enough.
     
    #49
  50. Valdez737

    Valdez737 Rookie

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    Nadal and Toni his coach since he started playing Tennis have both said that Roger is GOAT about every other other interview.
     
    #50

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