Safin Wawrinka whos greater

[NatF]

I've seen prettier ladies if I'm being honest.

Three 5's make a 15 though...

 

[initialize]

At what? Sucking in Grand Slams?

Nope in a match obviously. He’d demolish him harder than Zverev does to his girlfriend or umpire

 

[mike danny]

Three 5's make a 15 though...

 

[Thriller]

Nope in a match obviously. He’d demolish him harder than Zverev does to his girlfriend or umpire

Whatever makes you happy .... doesn't change the truth!
Inconvenient facts are still facts. Zverev's career blasts Ljubicic's and he is still a 24 year old who is just getting going.

 

[initialize]

Whatever makes you happy .... doesn't change the truth!
Inconvenient facts are still facts. Zverev's career blasts Ljubicic's and he is still a 24 year old who is just getting going.

Oh, I’m sure he’ll do just fine considering the Big 3 are on the tail-winds of their careers

 

[Kralingen]

this is a good thread to really get the fanbases riled up @l0s3

we will watch your posting career with great interest.

 

[NatF]

this is a good thread to really get the fanbases riled up @l0s3

we will watch your posting career with great interest.

Needs a Palpatine gif.

 

[Thriller]

Oh, I’m sure he’ll do just fine considering the Big 3 are on the tail-winds of their careers

There was no Big 3 in 2006 and Ljubicic still achieved nothing. He was the worst player ever to enter the top 10, top 5 and top 3. If he were playing today, he would be a Delbonis.

That's how much the standard of tennis has improved since 2006. A player with a record like Ljubicic's cannot even crack the Top 30 during this strong era, never mind Top 3.

 

[initialize]

There was no Big 3 in 2006 and Ljubicic still achieved nothing. He was the worst player ever to enter the top 10, top 5 and top 3. If he were playing today, he would be a Delbonis.

That's how much the standard of tennis has improved since 2006. A player with a record like Ljubicic's cannot even crack the Top 30 during this strong era, never mind Top 3.

Wow, so you're saying Zverev or DELBONIS could beat prime Djokovic, prime Nadal, and Roddick in a single tournament?

You "weak era" users need mental help

 

[aman92]

Extra slam makes a lot of difference when it's 3 vs 2 so obviously Wawrinka who has more titles overall as well.

 

[BlueB]

I've seen prettier ladies if I'm being honest.

Maybe, but did you sleep with 3 of them, the night before your match?

 

[Thriller]

Wow, so you're saying Zverev or DELBONIS could beat prime Djokovic, prime Nadal, and Roddick in a single tournament?

You "weak era" users need mental help

You are aware that Zverev has won the ATP Tour finals twice?
Once beating Federer and Djokovic.
The other time beating Medvedev and Djokovic.

Typical. The ATP Finals is a crucial piece missing from Nadal's resume but when Zverev wins it TWICE beating an all star cast, it means that he is worse than Ljubicic.
Honestly, sit down!

 

[initialize]

You are aware that Zverev has won the ATP Tour finals twice?
Once beating Federer and Djokovic.
The other time beating Medvedev and Djokovic.

Typical. The ATP Finals is a crucial piece missing from Nadal's resume but when Zverev wins it TWICE beating an all star cast, it means that he is worse than Ljubicic.
Honestly, sit down!

Yeah, hence why I said he couldn't beat them BOTH in their PRIME and in a SINGLE tournament.

How old are you just out of curiosity?

 

[abmk]

I mean in some respects you are on to something. Look at this thread. Everyone arguing Safin keeps coming back to the same well: the 2000 USO F against Pete and the 2005 AO SF against Federer. It's always those same two matches ad nauseum. Both great matches, but Stan has had the better overall career during a stronger era.

As far as career is concerned, Safin reached #1 unlike Wawa who never got close and has 5 masters to wawa's 1.

Let me bring up like 10 more matches. Behold:

1. AO 2005 F vs Hewitt
2. AO 2004 QF vs Roddick
3. AO 2004 SF vs Agassi
4. Wim 2008 2R vs Djoko
5. AO 2002 4R vs Sampras
6. Paris 2002 final vs Hewitt
7. Paris 2000 final vs Scud
8. Madrid 04 final vs Nalby
9. Hamburg 00 final vs Kuerten
10. Madrid 04 semi vs Agassi

An entire thread:

Demolishing the rubbish myth of Safin playing well in only 2 tournaments

Many around here seem to be harbouring the myth that Safin played well in only 2 tournaments. - USO 2000 and AO 2005. That's utter and complete bollocks Short version : Apart from the 2 slams, guy made 2 more slam finals, played well at YEC 2004, won 5 masters titles, made semis of all slams...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Many around here seem to be harbouring the myth that Safin played well in only 2 tournaments. - USO 2000 and AO 2005. That's utter and complete bollocks

Short version : Apart from the 2 slams, guy made 2 more slam finals, played well at YEC 2004, won 5 masters titles, made semis of all slams and reached #1 in 2000

Getting into detail

One way to look at it:

Lets start with :
the slams:

1. AO 2004 - beat peak Roddick in 5 sets and very high level Agassi in 5 sets. Spent in the final (esp in set 3). But it was an amazing tournament after almost a year back from injury

2. Wim 2008 - on his worst surface, Safin beat #3 seed Djokovic in straights and made the semi

3. and yes AO 2002 - definitely not a great tournament and final was below par. But he did make the final beating Sampras and Haas. Not something to be pooh-poohed away

4. only lost in a tight 4-set match to eventual finalist Norman (also Rome 2000 winner) in RG 2000 QF. Also reached RG 2002 SF (though he didn't play well in the semi)

5. beat defending champion Kuerten and Agassi at RG in 1998

6. beat Ljubicic, Arazi and T Johansson on the way to semi in USO 01. granted he didn't play well in the semi.


YEC 2004:

beat Coria and Henman convincingly. Only lost in a tight 2 TB match vs Roddick in RR. Played well vs fed in the semi (this was the match with the epic TB)

masters tournaments:

1. won not 1 or 2 masters tournaments, but frigging 5 Masters tournaments:

2. beat Sampras and Ferreria on the way to winning Canada 2000

3. beat Phillipoussis, Grosjean, Corretja and Ferrero on the way to winning Paris 2000. The Paris 2000 final was a classic, high quality encounter.

4. beat Escude, Moya and dominated Hewitt in Paris 2002 win.

5. beat Agassi in straight sets and dominated Nalbandian in Madrid 2004 win

6. beat Hewitt, Canas and Stepanek in Paris 2004 win.

7. made final of Hamburg 2000. Took peak Kuerten to a 5th set TB there.

8. made final of Hamburg 2002 - losing to a fed playing his very best tennis.


Other tournaments:

1. beat Norman (Rome 00 winner and RG 2000 finalist) in Barcelona 2000. Also beat Ferrero there
2. Helped Russia win Davis Cup in 2002. (beat Grosjean&Paul henri Mathieu)
3. Helped Russia win Davis Cup in 2006.
4. won Tashkent & St.Petersburg in 01 beating Kafelnikov in both

II. 2nd way:

Safin reached #1 in 2000. you don't reach frickin' #1 by playing well in one tournament in a year.
Safin won 7 titles in 2000 - including USO 2000, Canada 2000, Paris 2000, Barcelona 2000 and 3 other tournaments. Also made final of Hamburg.

III. 3rd way:

Safin vs top 10:
49/99 (49.5%)

Safin vs top 10 in slams:
13/24 (54.2%)

That's a pretty good record vs top 10 for a 2 slam winner.
Obviously someone playing well in only 2 tournaments cannot do that.

 

[mike danny]

I mean in some respects you are on to something. Look at this thread. Everyone arguing Safin keeps coming back to the same well: the 2000 USO F against Pete and the 2005 AO SF against Federer. It's always those same two matches ad nauseum. Both great matches, but Stan has had the better overall career during a stronger era.

Considering the fact that he's been no.1 and won 5 masters 1000, I'd say Safin peaked more than twice.

 

[skaj]

I've seen prettier ladies if I'm being honest.

But have you seen this much bare bosom on a tennis match?

 

[skaj]

The 3rd Best Player in the World in 2006:

Sit down!

And he was at that position for how long?

 

[Thriller]

Yeah, hence why I said he couldn't beat them BOTH in their PRIME and in a SINGLE tournament.

How old are you just out of curiosity?

LOL! When do you think 'prime' Nadal was? You're disappointed that a 12 year old Zverev couldn't beat Nadal?
Honestly, stop making a fool of yourself, sit down!

 

[Thriller]

And he was at that position for how long?

Too long. LOL at some of you lot behaving as if it would have been just fine if Ljubicic was No.5 instead of No. 3. A player that bereft of talent belongs at No. 30 something. The FACT that over a 62 week period he was the 3rd best player in the world is an epic disgrace.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Let's call BO5 peak level a wash for the sake of the argument.
Safin clearly leads BO3.
2 + 5 + #1 > 3 + 1 + #3

 

[skaj]

Too long. LOL at some of you lot behaving as if it would have been just fine if Ljubicic was No.5 instead of No. 3. A player that bereft of talent belongs at No. 30 something. The FACT that over a 62 week period he was the 3rd best player in the world is an epic disgrace.

And for how many of those weeks was this player, who beat all the top players, has a deadly serve, great power off both wings, effective volleys, and smart shot selection, at number 3?

 

[duaneeo]

Safin.

Wawrinka has 3 slams, 1 Masters, and reached a career high ranking of #3.

Safin has 2 slams, 5 Masters, and reached a career high ranking of #1. Seven of his wins were BO5 finals, and were won on outdoor hard, indoor hard, carpet, and clay.

 

[Apun94]

Wawrinka by absolute far. Plus he has a one hander and gorgeous fat. Safin is what you get when you drop peak Kyrgios in the 2000s.

OH WOW THIS IS SUCH A HORRIBLE TAKE. YOU REALLY STARTED WATCHING TENNIS YESTERDAY

 

[AgassiSuperSlam11]

Slams: Wawrinka wins 3 to 2. and higher GS Win% (151-58 72.2% vs. 95-38 71.4%)
Olympics: Wawrinka won an Olympic Gold in Doubles this gives him the win essentially by default (Safin didn't play in Olympics)
Davis Cup: This one is close. I give it to Safin barely. Wawrinka has better singles record (22-13 vs 21-15, but Safin won 2 Davis Cups and won crucial matches in both Russian wins 2002 and 2006 while Stan got his 1 Davis Cup 2014 (3-1 in Singles matches). Once again, close but will give it to Safin.

M1000: Safin by far in this category. Safin won 4 or 5 (no need to fact-check while Stan only won Monte Carlo).
Doubles: Both players won only 2 titles each, but Stan has Olympic Gold here which breaks the tie.
ATP Finals: None won or made it to the Final. Stan made 3 SF's while Safin 2, so the slight edge to Stan.
H2H vs Top Players: Stan was 4-4 vs ND in GS matches and actually lead ND 3-2 in finals. However, Safin has the edge against the top players. Safin 4-3 Sampras, 7-7 Hewitt, 6-6 JC Ferrero, 3-3 Agassi, 3-1 Rios, and was 2-0 in Slams against a young Novak. Only major thorn was his 2-10 record against Fed.

Overall: Wawrinka wins 4 out of the 7 categories and he was 3-1 against ND and Nadal in GS finals, so will say Stan was BARELY greater.

 

[NoleFam]

This is not cut and dry and it definitely is not 2 to 1 for Wawrinka like that poll shows. The truth is Wawrinka was never #1, and one of the very few multi Slam champions who wasn't #1. In fact, I can't think of any other player who won 3 Slams that wasn't ranked #1 and then he only has 1 Masters to Safin's 5. That hurts Wawrinka imo. He was able to maximum his opportunities and his good matchup with Djokovic in BO5 which is why he won 3 Slams but outside of that, Safin has more feathers in his cap imo.

 

[ghostofMecir]

Better backhand in your dreams. Wawrinka has better backhand and, crucially, better mobility (he was way faster) and better baseline game. Wawrinka's serve is also excellent, not sure how Safin has a better serve.

Wawrinka beat a peaking Novak at the AO and RG.

Novak's peak at the AO > Federer's peak at the AO.

Novak is the AO King (9 AO titles) and dominates Federer 4-0 since the AO 2008.

In which universe is beating peak Federer at the AO more meritory than beating peak Novak at the AO?

Why are you taking about aggregate title counts? 2005 Federer was a level above anything Djokovic has shown. It was a run in which Federer was 97-3 before losing to Nalbandian in the TMC Final after coming back from injury. In these three losses, he held match points and won more points than both Gasquet and Safin. He was only outplayed by Nadal at the 2005 RG. Along with 1984 JMac, it’s the closest amy player has come to being undefeated. Djokovic NEVER reached this level.

Wawrinka doesn’t have a better backhand. Safin’s return is better off the BH, his defense is better off the backhand. Peak Safin was a better mover than Wawrinka. And while Wawrinka’s serve was good and he wound up in the top 10 in first serve points won% twice and top 16 like 4-5 times, peak Safin’s serve was just a little better.

 

[abmk]

Better backhand in your dreams. Wawrinka has better backhand and, crucially, better mobility (he was way faster) and better baseline game. Wawrinka's serve is also excellent, not sure how Safin has a better serve.

Wawrinka beat a peaking Novak at the AO and RG.

Novak's peak at the AO > Federer's peak at the AO.

Novak is the AO King (9 AO titles) and dominates Federer 4-0 since the AO 2008.

In which universe is beating peak Federer at the AO more meritory than beating peak Novak at the AO?

Safin's BH is better.
Wawa's was not way faster than Safin. their movement is in the same ballpark.
Stan has more patience/topspin though. (which is why he is clearly better on clay)
safin's return is significantly better than Wawa's.
safin's serve is a little better courtesy of his height.

even if you want to say novak's peak/top level at AO is better, 14 is not in Novak's top 3 AOs. 05 is for fed (04,05,07)
Safin beat a clearly better opponent in AO 05 fed than Wawa in AO 14 Djoko.
djoko beating nowhere near prime level fed at AO in 08/11/16/20 doesn't change that. (Fed had 6 prime level years at AO - 04-07 and 09-10)

Djoko was hardly peaking in 15 RG final. It was still prime level, but not peak. his defense was very good, but play was passive in general. form dipped significantly compared to 15 RG QF vs Nadal.

 

[JaxTeller]

Why are you taking about aggregate title counts? 2005 Federer was a level above anything Djokovic has shown. It was a run in which Federer was 97-3 before losing to Nalbandian in the TMC Final after coming back from injury. In these three losses, he held match points and won more points than both Gasquet and Safin. He was only outplayed by Nadal at the 2005 RG. Along with 1984 JMac, it’s the closest amy player has come to being undefeated. Djokovic NEVER reached this level.

Wawrinka doesn’t have a better backhand. Safin’s return is better off the BH, his defense is better off the backhand. Peak Safin was a better mover than Wawrinka. And while Wawrinka’s serve was good and he wound up in the top 10 in first serve points won% twice and top 16 like 4-5 times, peak Safin’s serve was just a little better.

Now this is wrong, Novak was 60-2 after the UsO,(even in Cincinnati,he retired coz of the injury) means all his defeats after that were coz of injury issues..

 

[Takashitennislover]

Safin has 15 titles which include 5 masters in a short career while Wawrinka has a similar number of titles with 1 just masters title among them in an era where careers last much longer. Marat has wins over better quality players while Wawrinka has wins over just Novak and no one else of that calibre.

Easily Marat Safin!

 

[skaj]

Ah, those ttw polls...