Sam Groth 163mph serve – Ball toss analysis

julian

Hall of Fame
Is the post below for me?

What is this "serve" you speak of? Never heard of it. :)
Is the post ABOVE for me?
The most interesting question was: how FAR AWAY from the apex the ball is "hit"
The question assumes that a student hits a ball when the ball comes down after reaching an apex.
Please note that I refer to a student,not you at least for couple of seconds.
I hope you do NOT object :)
 
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WildVolley

Legend
Federer waits at the trophy position, does he have a high toss? Berdych waits, does he have a high toss? Trick question

If I'm describing toss heights I'd say that Dogopolov has a low toss, Federer has a medium height toss and Berdych has a high toss.

My opinion is that the high toss is the least desirable form and something I'd try to discourage in students that are learning. The long pause in trophy seems to me to be an unnecessary affectation and my experience as a juggler tells me that the higher the toss the more difficult it is to accurately place the ball and the more violent the toss motion has to be.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Pausing in Trophy Position Correlates with Toss Height?

If I'm describing toss heights I'd say that Dogopolov has a low toss, Federer has a medium height toss and Berdych has a high toss.

My opinion is that the high toss is the least desirable form and something I'd try to discourage in students that are learning. The long pause in trophy seems to me to be an unnecessary affectation and my experience as a juggler tells me that the higher the toss the more difficult it is to accurately place the ball and the more violent the toss motion has to be.

I'm just looking at high level servers in videos. I believe that there is a strong correlation of high tosses and pausing in the Trophy Position. A considerable percentage of high level servers are pausing in the Trophy Position, so this is not a flaw.

You can even notice this while watching TV, it helps with a DVR, but it is probably easy to see. I noticed that Berdych had a high toss and paused at the Australian Open on my TV.

To do stats pick the servers randomly.
 
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julian

Hall of Fame
Yes to the second question

What is the physics behind it?

Are you referring to the fact that the ball moves its slowest at the peak of its trajectory because of deceleration up, peak, and acceleration down from gravity? And presumably the impact timing would be easier, more accurate?

Also, Rod Cross discusses added topspin from the falling velocity of the ball. That factor would be zero added topspin from ball dropping speed. ??

In your opinion, what percentage of high level servers do you think are seriously considering - with their tosses - trying to hit the ball at the peak of the toss ?

Interestingly, this thread has a number of examples of very strong servers with minimal toss heights.

If the ball is stationary it would help timing but what we don't know is the timing capability of servers to put the racket on a moving ball.

There is a lot of variation in the height of the toss. Do you know of any studies?
Yes to the second question
 

WildVolley

Legend
The best way to measure toss height would be to look at the vertical distance of the drop of the ball from the peak of the toss to the contact point. With a proper camera set up, it should be possible to do this fairly accurately.

Roscoe Tanner was said to sometimes hit the ball as it was still rising, but I don't know any pro player hitting that way today. Dolgopolov and Ivanisevic probably normally have a drop measured in inches at contact.

It would be interesting to see how consistent the drop amount is with a higher drop player like Berdych. My guess is that the toss height would vary to a greater extent the higher the ball is being tossed.

OK, someone figure out how to do this. I don't know how many serves you'd have to shoot from a fixed position and then use some sort of simple triangulation to get a small data set. It might make an interesting article.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Dolgopov and Groth have among the lowest tosses currently.
I think people said Tanner hit a rising ball because they didn't have video back in the day, and most player's used high tosses back then.
Simple physics, if you tossed the ball 40' high, and hit the ball after 30' of drop, your serves go faster.
But, is faster better than quick disquise?
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
The first server is Gerald Paterson, quality slow motion included.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QL1sglyouU

This is one of the clearest dislplays of internal shoulder rotation, and from 1919!. The toss does not look very high. ?

Gerald, an Aussie, was known as the "Human Catapult" because of his serve. He overcame a backhand weakness to win Wimbledon singles and doubles titles.

I am searching for Rosco Tanner in slow motion who has one of the lowest tosses. The unusual low toss is about the only technical thing he mentions in his autobiography, Double Fault.

I thought both feet had to be on the ground till impact during those days (before 1950)?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I thought both feet had to be on the ground till impact during those days (before 1950)?

I have not heard of that rule change. I'll keep it in mind when I view the old servers. I think the 1961 rule change was that one foot had to remain on the ground, I assume until impact.

This issue is explained in a Pat Dougherty video. He discusses the effect that the leg thrust had after the rule change. I wonder if Poncho Gonzales changed his serving technique to including a jump?

looking for instructional video from the 30s.
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
I have not heard of that rule change. I'll keep it in mind when I view the old servers. I think the 1962 ('64?) rule change was that one foot had to remain on the ground, I assume until impact.

This issue is explained in a Pat Dougherty video. He discusses the effect that the leg thrust had after the rule change. I wonder if Poncho Gonzales changed his serving technique to including a jump?

looking for instructional video from the 30s.

You are right. It applied only for a short time from 1883-85 when it was also required that one foot should be outside the baseline and one on or within it.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The best way to measure toss height would be to look at the vertical distance of the drop of the ball from the peak of the toss to the contact point. With a proper camera set up, it should be possible to do this fairly accurately.

Roscoe Tanner was said to sometimes hit the ball as it was still rising, but I don't know any pro player hitting that way today. Dolgopolov and Ivanisevic probably normally have a drop measured in inches at contact.

It would be interesting to see how consistent the drop amount is with a higher drop player like Berdych. My guess is that the toss height would vary to a greater extent the higher the ball is being tossed.

OK, someone figure out how to do this. I don't know how many serves you'd have to shoot from a fixed position and then use some sort of simple triangulation to get a small data set. It might make an interesting article.

Random selection of servers - get a list of the top 50 or 100 and pick one in the middle with your eyes closed. Count up and down from there by 5s to select other players and find youtubes. Do 4-6 total or as many as you feel like. It might be a good idea to bookmark the youtube.

It is best to download the Youtube and view it on your computer screen with Quicktime. You can easily select the exact frame you want.

Kinovea is a free open source video measuring application. It has measuring tools and many other capabilities.

Select videos that do not appear to be too wide angle as the magnification varies across the frame. If it appears to have considerable wide angle distortions don't use it.

To measure the height of the toss and the height of impact requires an object of known length to use as a length reference. Also, that object should not be tilted toward or away from the camera. If the person is standing and the feet are visible, their height can be used as a calibration scale. If their feet are not visible, the racket is another known length. Measure it when it is not tilted toward or away from the camera, that is, the length will be at its max. 28 or 29", a 3% error won't make much difference. Also, record whether or not the player moves on through Trophy Position or pauses for a while.

WARNING _ Some computer screens may be damaged by the pressure of a pencil. Use an index card or two and don't press to make the marks. An alternate way to measure is to use a ruler placed on the screen and record. I like the index card, record on both sides and the edges. Write the server and whether they pause or move through the Trophy Position on the card.

1) Display the peak of the toss.
2) Place an index card on the computer screen and gently mark the peak of the toss on the edge of the card. Keep the card in the same spot.
3) Step ahead to the impact. Gently mark that on the card.
4) Now we have the distance between the toss peak and impact on the card.
5) Select the racket length as the reference scale or the server's height. Mark that also on the edge of the index card.

Scale: Try to select a frame showing the racket when it is a plane parallel to the camera - not tilted away or toward the camera. If you look at it carefully and can't tell if it's tilted, good enough. Horizontal or vertical does not matter. Pick the player standing most upright near the serving spot to use their height as a reference know height. Get their height from the ATP records.

6) Measure the distance from the peak of the toss to impact.

If you have Kinovea use its video measuring capabilities.


X = X' x Y/Y'

X - real Toss Apex Height (or Impact Height)
X' - measured height on computer screen or index card in mm.
Y' - measured height of racket length or server's height on computer screen or from index card in mm.
Y - real length of tennis racket or server's height
 
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tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
Federer does not actually wait/pause at the trophy position. His hand, arm, and racket keep moving. Steffi Graf was closer to a true pause/wait.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcjZ5r_YHV0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXkAK_iFBuQ

Yes, you're right my bad.

To answer some questions from earlier:

Regarding my serve, I don't stop at the trophy position but do slow down more then Fed. Just watched a video of Berdych and he does a full stop for a split second. Reason is the hight of the ball toss.

Also, when it comes to the toss I've always been taught and have been teaching to hit it at the apex, where the ball hangs/stands still. A "J" toss, to varying degree is great for this. Hitting it on the way down when it starts moving again I don't like. Serve is the only shot in tennis where you're not receiving a ball from your opponent and have complete control from start to finish, so why make it more difficult on yourself by hitting a moving target thats speeding up? Don't see a benefit in doing so. Wind is another reason to avoid it.
 

racquetreligion

Hall of Fame
Have look at Sams physique doing what he does almost a metre into the court with his heels in the court with his toes behind the line just before he launches into the air to hit it. Its quite an impressive use of this whole body like a coil but with that Rao match had Groth has very little control with that APD frame on the rest of his game. He does amazingly well but really needs to use something with a little more control to harness all that power he already has.

this is a practice vid not the one I watched from the side during the AO

Lol to the last 2 forehands, its alot of mass to move around for the rest of the game
If you ever watch him you can see he tries to brush the ball or he hits it out and
still able to hit winners with this reduced effort on drives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdLTj4R7XVU
 
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Groths ground games or volleys are still not good but he has improved a ton in both Areas.

2 years ago any random top300 Player would outplay him from the baseline, now he is much improved in that regard.

what also helped him was using a lot of serve and volley. even if his volleys are not the greatest it would still mean a lot of easy putaways with his Monster serve. he also lost quite a bit of weight and got much better.

impressive improvement going from being a barely top200 Player in your mid 20s (who is basically just a serve) to making the top70 at Age 27.
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
So in conclusion, in order to serve 160mph consistently, one needs to have a bend arm toss otherwise it just won't work.


True story.
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
Then again, maybe all the
ecodave.gif
is wrong.

I messed up somewhere in my
1337451510_66446.jpg


....and really

dexter-mccluster-slo-mo-drop.gif


on this one.
 

treblings

Hall of Fame
Then again, maybe all the
ecodave.gif
is wrong.

I messed up somewhere in my
1337451510_66446.jpg


....and really

dexter-mccluster-slo-mo-drop.gif


on this one.

you´re just feeling sorry for yourself, that you didn´t know about the bent arm earlier. might have made it to the pros yourself, instead of having to coach for a living
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
please....stop crying. life can still be good
think of all the brats in bratislava that would miss you:)

I'm in Prague, but the Slovak girls are nice as well. Brats are everywhere, comes with the territory :? I try to avoid the little ankle biters though.
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
why did i think of Bratislava:confused:
reading all these posts here probably confused me

That's fine, its happens.

I lose braincells trying to interpret threads on here as well. At times you really have to stoop really low mentally to understand whats being discussed, even though it may appear sophisticated and intelligent. You know, not saying the first post in this thread in particular or anything.....
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
so you are the guy who teaches the WTA Forehand to all those czech Girls?:D

No, but don't get me started on the coaching in this country.
Besides, I don't wanna derail an amazing thread regarding 160mph serves and bend arm tosses. This debate will end up being more fierce and informative than bent arm vs straight arm forehands. Just wait and see!
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
The principle is that a speed of TOSSED ball should be as CLOSE as possible to zero AT THE CONTACT. There is some physics behind it.
If a ball hit close to an APEX the vertical component of the speed of a ball is CLOSE TO ZERO. I am a bit surprised that it has to be explained.
Talk to Tennis_Balla how he coaches serve

What about the old advice that it should drop a foot before contact? Is it not being used by the pros anymore?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I've seen a serve where Groth hits it at the peak as I guess you are showing. But there were many more where the ball might go a foot above impact.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Toly asks: Whose technique is better?

I'd be more inclined to emulate more elements of the Federer serve than the Groth serve. I'm ok with either pinpoint or platform. And I do not have a problem with either toss height. However, I much prefer the unchanging elbow flexion of Roger's tossing arm compared to the radical change in the elbow flexion angle (during the toss motion) for Sam.
 

racquetreligion

Hall of Fame
Accuracy beats power anyday. When the pressure is on his over complicated action gets him in trouble. Someone like Stan has a simple action that is more reliable under pressure. Sam has improve alot no doubt and is actually fun to watch but would be even better with a more control oriented racquet as he has no shortage of strength.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Toly asks: Whose technique is better?

... I'd be more inclined to emulate more elements of the Federer serve than the Groth serve. I'm ok with either pinpoint or platform. And I do not have a problem with either toss height. However, I much prefer the unchanging elbow flexion of Roger's tossing arm compared to the radical change in the elbow flexion angle (during the toss motion) for Sam.

For 2014, Roger F served 627 Aces with 117 DFs. Sam G served 343 Aces with 92 DFs. However, Roger serve more than 3x as many games last year as Sam did. Therefore Sam G has more Aces per game than Roger. But then Sam is some 3 or 4 inches taller.

DFs tell another story. Sam G has a much higher DFs per game than Roger. Comparing Aces to DFs, Roger hits about 5.4 Aces/DF whereas Sam hits 3.7 Aces/DF. While Groth had a bigger serve overall, (this is one indication that) Groth's serve is less reliable than Federer's. Groth did put 62% of his 1st serves into play last year. Compare this to 64% for Federer.

Still going with Roger for both technique and reliability.
 
For 2014, Roger F served 627 Aces with 117 DFs. Sam G served 343 Aces with 92 DFs. However, Roger serve more than 3x as many games last year as Sam did. Therefore Sam G has more Aces per game than Roger. But then Sam is some 3 or 4 inches taller.

DFs tell another story. Sam G has a much higher DFs per game than Roger. Comparing Aces to DFs, Roger hits about 5.4 Aces/DF whereas Sam hits 3.7 Aces/DF. While Groth had a bigger serve overall, (this is one indication that) Groth's serve is less reliable than Federer's. Groth did put 62% of his 1st serves into play last year. Compare this to 64% for Federer.

Still going with Roger for both technique and reliability.

I agree Groth can be more inconsistent but the DFs are probably also a result of his Approach. while his groundgame and volleys are massively improved still most guys in the top150 can outplay him from the ground. thus he goes for it more with the second serve while federer can outplay most guys in a Rally and thus does not Need to go high risk with his second serve.
 

toly

Hall of Fame
Taylor Dent serve 148mph Toss analysis

Dent-serve-148mph-Toss-analysis.gif


Taylor%2BDent%2Bserve%2B148mph%2BToss%2Banalysis.png


Bent elbow stabilizes the toss terrifically!!! :shock:

Btw, it was his fastest serve ever and he didn’t jump!!! :shock:

See corresponding video http://youtu.be/PdPR0PB-RFU
 
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WildVolley

Legend
Bent elbow stabilizes the toss terrifically!!! :shock:

I think that the sample size is far too small to make this claim.

However, I think that we can say it is fine to toss with a bent arm if you control the toss. As I stated, I actually toss with a slightly bent arm perhaps due to my juggling expertise. As long as I'm able to consistently control the ball into the proper strike zone then my tossing technique is fine.

The toss is just to put the ball into position to be hit, but perhaps some techniques allow for a more natural shoulder turn into the ball than others.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
For 2014, Roger F served 627 Aces with 117 DFs. Sam G served 343 Aces with 92 DFs. However, Roger serve more than 3x as many games last year as Sam did. Therefore Sam G has more Aces per game than Roger. But then Sam is some 3 or 4 inches taller.

DFs tell another story. Sam G has a much higher DFs per game than Roger. Comparing Aces to DFs, Roger hits about 5.4 Aces/DF whereas Sam hits 3.7 Aces/DF. While Groth had a bigger serve overall, (this is one indication that) Groth's serve is less reliable than Federer's. Groth did put 62% of his 1st serves into play last year. Compare this to 64% for Federer.

Still going with Roger for both technique and reliability.

Very interesting points. Can you say more that involves the average number of aces per game relative to the number of games necessary to win a match (considering the variable number of games somehow)? That might make Groth look better. Groth has a harder draw but does not go as deep.? How to factor that in?
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
They don’t need stable toss due to their serves are very slow compare to Sam.:twisted:

Are you performing stand-up comedy in Eastern Europe? Outrageous statement.

From the video I've seen of Taylor Dent he has a moderate elbow bend prior to the toss. (He straightens it after release). However, he is not flipping his forearm prior to the toss as Groth does. He is tossing arm action is closer to Roddick's motion than to Groth's motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6QPIgcEtqI&t=42
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Stan Wawrinka Pause at Trophy Position

Here is a Stan Wawrinka serve. This video is not ideal because the camera angle may have made the toss height appear lower. But it still looks like a lower toss. I'll look for a better high speed video taken more from ground height that would better show the toss height. Anybody have one?
https://vimeo.com/70628451

Stan appears to pause in the Trophy Position in this video. I can see why some servers, Sharapova, Berdych, B. Becker? with very high tosses pause at TP, to wait for the ball to drop.

Why is Stan doing something different?

Players who pause in Trophy Position are not rotating the forearm and racket up from a more horizontal position. Players who move the racket up from horizontal don't pause in the Trophy Position Sampras, many others, I believe, are the majority.

All the low tosses are explosive and no Trophy Position stopping but do some low tossers pause in TP from the beginning. ?
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
^ It does not appear that Stanimal actually pauses in your video or in the links below. He does not move thru the trophy phase very quickly but I do not see really see an actual pause. This is not unusual -- especially with a moderately high toss and the Up-Together motion of his arms.

From the first link below, his toss seems fairly high -- it seems to be out of frame for quite a while. It is undoubtedly higher than Roger's toss but lower than Maria's toss. My guess is that it is as high as Pete's toss or a little lower.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QoE86GZFDg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xmJO_ZUtWU

Maria is closer to an actaul pause, but there is some minor movement at her trophy position. From what I've seen, Steffi is the closest to a real trophy pause/pose.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
They don’t need stable toss due to their serves are very slow compare to Sam.:twisted:

Still chuckling about this.

Keep in mind that Federer & Sampras are several inches shorter than Groth. Also, Sampras is said to have one of the heaviest serves. Even tho' Sampras did not serve faster than 130 mph very often, he put a lot more spin on the ball. In one spin study (1997?), he averaged 2700 rpm on his first serve with some exceeding 4200 rpm. Those are the kind of spin rates that many other players put on their much slower 2nd serve. In order to put that much spin on a serve that was clocked at 120-135 mph, he needed to generate a huge amount of RHS. It could very well be close to the RHS that Groth would generate for his flatter 160+ mph serves.

Edit: Federer can also put a good deal of spin on his serves and has also hit as fast as 135 mph.
.
 
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