Some footage of FH, BH, volleys, serve

[FiReFTW]

I was thinking if I should even open this thead, because ive already made like 3 in the past 3 months, but I decided since some ppl said I don't post good enough footage and that I should rather post repetitions of swings from feeding the ball, rather than rally where the point is over so soon.

So I made really quality footage that was requested so hopefully its good enough for you guys to clearly see all my mistakes, ive also made serve and volley footage.

Hopefully il have enough feedback to know which things to improve in my biomechanics to have a better idea about it all, so I can go out there and really strive to improve.

I know im quite annoying probably already with all these new threads, but this is the last one for at least like 6 months or so, now im really going to absorb all the feedback and work on improving hard.

 

[DavidGibson]

Not bad but why does everyone that posts a forehand video seem to do slappy wristy stuff. Just take the racket back.
Having said that, You're doing some good things. Take note that you hit late because you are still taking the racket back as the ball bounces. Your forward swing should start as the ball is bouncing so practice preparing early.

 

[FiReFTW]

What do you mean by slappy wristy stuff?

 

[Nellie]

Volleys - too much swinging and trying to put the ball away (like wristy overhead). Try standing in the service box while holding the racquet out in front with a continental grip. When the ball is coming toward you, turn at your shoulders and tip back the head (behind the handle) so face is open, like this:

You need to open the face of the racquet because normally, you are hitting the volley when the ball is going down, and a vertical face will cause the ball to go down and into the net. The lower the ball, the more open the racquet. At first, just block back the volley with a firm wrist, and once you are comfortable, add pace by stepping into the volley and/or adding a little torso rotation and not by swinging at the elbow/wrist (I think of locking my elbow into my ribs).

On the forehand, stand on your toes so you can shift weight, but don't jump (this will destroy your timing)

On the serve-and-volley, jump step when your serve bounces to stop yourself and get ready. You want to take a fraction of a second pause to be able to see where your opponent is hitting and which way to move. You don't want to run straight forward through the volley.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Volleys:
- You swing quite a bit on your FH, almost like a mini-groundstroke. You can get away with this with slow and higher balls; you will have timing problems with low and/or faster ones. First work on the foundation of just getting the volley back deep: your error rate will go way down.

- You had problems on shots coming towards your body. You need to move laterally and get out of the way.

- I liked your BH volley more because you took a small backswing and were very controlled.


FH:
- You could get more power by bending your knees and then uncoiling as you hit [similar to the serve]. You are standing almost straight up and thus have to generate all your power with your upper body.


BH:
- How much topspin are you getting? It's hard to tell from this angle but a lot of the time it doesn't look like you are coming over the ball but are hitting more through it. Do you have any problems with your shots going long more often than short? If so, adding some more topspin could help.

Same comment about knee bend.

You have the same dichotomy going on between FH and BH groundstrokes as you do with your volleys: you hit a lot harder and faster with your FH but I don't know if that's also resulting in a lot more errors. If it is, reduce the power of your FH a bit.


Serve:
- It looks like most of your serves are going short [they are going in but your practice partner is always leaning forward to return them]. You might try a bit more core rotation and knee bend and try to aim a bit deeper in the service box.

The serve is the most important shot in tennis; it's also the most complicated. Take a look at some of the internet instruction by Rick Macci, Florian Meier, Jeff Salzenstein, TopTennisTraining, etc. You'll find plenty of good info and things to try. Keep in mind that there are differences in serve among the top players and there is also differences in instruction among top coaches. Find what feels comfortable for you.


Keep up the hard work. I, for one, do not find your posts annoying. I find it great that you're willing to put in the work and feedback is what this forum is for.

 

[FiReFTW]

Hey thanks for your comments S&V.

Volleys - You have a good point, I do struggle alot with the ones coming towards my body, need to get a feel of moving out of the way, I usually can't decide to do that and just kind of freeze and then have to compensate somehow.
Will try to tone down volleys and try to use less swing.

FH - I agree about knee bend, would help with power. As far as hitting too hard with FH it doesn't seem to be a problem, im actually very pleased with how my FH is progressing, its pretty consistent and I even have a really good feel of controlling spin on it lately, I can hit it with quite good spin and the shot is not a floater it actually is quite an offensive shot but just has ton of spin and dips into the court, or I can hit it faster and flater for a winner type shot, I feel like the power is good as it is currently, because I have pretty good consistency with such power, when I try to go for like seriously alot of power then it starts to get very inaccurate.

BH - Yeah BH needs alot of work, its very inconsistent, consistency over the net was great with the technique I had before, went nicely over and had good depth, but direction was completely erratic, and people told me I swing sideways too much and turn my upper body, so now im trying to stay sideways with my body and hit the shot more through as opposed to accross, so its very new to me and the reason you notice not much power is because im toning it down alot to get a good feel of it, it really doesn't have a good feel yet in terms of depth, as it tends to go too high and long sometimes as you mentioned, as far as direction it is much better than before, I can control the direction decently now, before it was completely erratic. I think I need to bend more and raise more into the shot and come from more bellow the ball to add more topspin.

Serve - Yup I agree, they seem to be either quite short or too long, also nice note about more knee bend and core rotation, I do notice I lack that when comparing against slow motion vids of some pro serves.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Hey thanks for your comments S&V.

Volleys - You have a good point, I do struggle alot with the ones coming towards my body, need to get a feel of moving out of the way, I usually can't decide to do that and just kind of freeze and then have to compensate somehow.
Will try to tone down volleys and try to use less swing.

Tip: try to bounce around a bit more. You are split-stepping but the extra bounces can help you even more with your reaction. See the Bryan Brothers and how much they move at the net when awaiting the incoming shot.

Tip on the body volleys: it's easier to hit those with your BH. To get a feel for this, have someone hit to your dominant hip and hit a BH volley. Then have them hit to your non-dominant hip and try to hit a FH.

I take most body volleys with my BH. I actually learned this in ping pong where you typically have even less time to react when someone smashes at you. As such, my ready position is not with the racquet edge facing forward, which is neutral. It shades more towards the BH side because I'm likely to get more BHs than FHs. I figure I'm playing the percentages by doing this. Others may disagree.

 

[DavidGibson]

What do you mean by slappy wristy stuff?

You are doing a little extra move at the transition from the back to forward swing. It's not terrible but it's there. Some people try to mimic the pros by trying to whip the wrist. I'm not sure if you are purposely doing it or not. If your not aware that you are doing it, it is very likely caused by your late preparation. You have more time than you think to prepare but your not using it. Start your unit/shoulder turn as the ball leaves your opponents racket, start to take the racket back as the ball crosses the net, start your forward swing as the ball bounces.

 

[NuBas]

You are doing a little extra move at the transition from the back to forward swing. It's not terrible but it's there. Some people try to mimic the pros by trying to whip the wrist. I'm not sure if you are purposely doing it or not. If your not aware that you are doing it, it is very likely caused by your late preparation. You have more time than you think to prepare but your not using it. Start your unit/shoulder turn as the ball leaves your opponents racket, start to take the racket back as the ball crosses the net, start your forward swing as the ball bounces.

No, his forehand is his best shot and its good. Maybe you have an old school forehand but the OP is not flicking the ball with his wrist at all. I think what you're seeing is that the OP is purposely trying to DROP his racquet when the drop is naturally from a relaxed wrist and forward momentum from swing, so my suggestion to OP is don't purposely drop the racquet with your wrist.

The serve you will learn gradually, its a hard stroke but for all other strokes the OP needs better footwork which will come with athleticism and practice. Especially the backhand, you need to turn your shoulders more and almost show you right shoulder blade and also lean into the shot. In your backhand video @ 0:22 seconds, that is good form, bending knees and stepping into shot, allowing racquet to do the work and use less wrist especially for the OHBH.

Serve you have good beginner form and good ball toss, just remember the ball shouldn't spin in the air, try to toss the ball with zero spin as possible.

 

[DavidGibson]

You're good OP, NuBas said "No" to my comments and that your forehand is good. Sorry for misleading you.. Oh and you might want to ask NuBas if he's been teaching and developing advanced juniors for years. Good luck.

 

[NuBas]

You're good OP, NuBas said "No" to my comments and that your forehand is good. Sorry for misleading you.. Oh and you might want to ask NuBas if he's been teaching and developing advanced juniors for years. Good luck.

His forehand is good for a person who just started playing.

 

[mad dog1]

His forehand is good for a person who just started playing.

Ok. That's better. Glad you qualified your comment because while OP's forehand is his best stroke, it's far from "good".

 

[NuBas]

Ok. That's better. Glad you qualified your comment because while OP's forehand is his best stroke, it's far from "good".

Come on now, you have been following this guy, he has only been playing for what 2 months? Of course that is a good forehand at this stage for being self taught. Not everyone has opportunity like you do play tennis every day and learn from great players. OP only plays when he has a chance and he is making good progress from shadow swinging in his first thread.

 

[mad dog1]

Come on now, you have been following this guy, he has only been playing for what 2 months? Of course that is a good forehand at this stage for being self taught. Not everyone has opportunity like you do play tennis every day and learn from great players. OP only plays when he has a chance and he is making good progress from shadow swinging in his first thread.

Yes, i do agree it's good for a person who just started playing. But @DavidGibson was right about the OP's fh being too wristy

 

[NuBas]

No it's not too wristy and if you have solutions then share it with OP, otherwise why bother to criticize.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Seems pretty wristy to me but then again, so do the FHs of Sock and Kyrgios and no one criticizes them for it. Again, I was taught in a different era when that much wrist was taboo. So it's more in the eye of the beholder than an absolute "right" vs "wrong".

 

[mad dog1]

Seems pretty wristy to me but then again, so do the FHs of Sock and Kyrgios and no one criticizes them for it. Again, I was taught in a different era when that much wrist was taboo. So it's more in the eye of the beholder than an absolute "right" vs "wrong".

Sock and krygios wristy motion is quite different from OPs. Their forehand have the right elements and the wristiness is more of a unique style for them. But even sock with his excess wrist wind up does get caught late causing him to shank his fh when playing against big hitters.

 

[NuBas]

I still don't understand how you are perceiving his forehand to be wrist heavy.

The only thing I can think of is that his forehand doesn't have the traditional windshield wiper motion and he is hitting it flat at the moment. He may be trying to crush every ball instead of place it with topspin. Sure it looks slappy but not overly wristy.

 

[mad dog1]

Yes, slappy/wristy

 

[FiReFTW]

Thanks for the comments guys.

Im not really sure what you guys mean by slappy/wristy forehand, and im trying to get miself to understand so we can try to work on improving it if its a big problem.
I just dont get what you guys mean exactly, so I will try to explain exactly what I do with my forehand and think of doing.

First I think about rotating my upper body, hips, holding the racquet with my left arm, then release the racquet with left arm, and after that I drop my raquet or extend my right arm downwards, thats the preparation phase.

Swing phase I think only about keeping the arm and wrist very loose and relaxed, and whatever racquet lag I get from that, or wrist moving forward during the swing (I assume this is slappy wristy?), thats simply from the momentum and loose wrist and arm, I do not try to do any of those things, its simply a result from the swing, so not sure how I could fix that.

The only thing I do actively do sometimes, is either come from more of a straight just somewhat bellow position of the ball for a more flat shot, or drop the racquet more bellow the ball, so my racquet head also drops a bit (maybe this is the wrist thing u guys talk about?).

 

[FiReFTW]

After looking at my vid slow motion I think im fairly sure you guys mean the thing I do before my swing, where my wrist drops the racquet? Yes I do that actively when I want to add more topspin (I try to drop the racquet bellow the ball more), maybe im going wrong about it tho.

 

[Todd Hicks]

I was thinking if I should even open this thead, because ive already made like 3 in the past 3 months, but I decided since some ppl said I don't post good enough footage and that I should rather post repetitions of swings from feeding the ball, rather than rally where the point is over so soon.

So I made really quality footage that was requested so hopefully its good enough for you guys to clearly see all my mistakes, ive also made serve and volley footage.

Hopefully il have enough feedback to know which things to improve in my biomechanics to have a better idea about it all, so I can go out there and really strive to improve.

I know im quite annoying probably already with all these new threads, but this is the last one for at least like 6 months or so, now im really going to absorb all the feedback and work on improving hard.

Nothing's wrong with wanting to improve and we're here to help but it ain't necessary to create all these new threads. You can simply use the ones that already exist which are those created by you or others.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Sock and krygios wristy motion is quite different from OPs. Their forehand have the right elements and the wristiness is more of a unique style for them. But even sock with his excess wrist wind up does get caught late causing him to shank his fh when playing against big hitters.

Sock and Kyrgios, like all good players, are swinging with a loose racquet arm, and driving the motion with the legs, hips, and core. OP is initiating the swing, executing it, and completing it solely by pulling the arm across the body with the pectoral and shoulder. *USUALLY.* What little weight transfer there is is merely window decoration, being entirely in the legs (but not the hips or core), and then completed before the real swing even starts.

The hips and core are entirely disconnected from the motion, so that all the work is being done by arming the ball. This stiffness through the body means the legs thus have nothing connecting the lower body to the swing, and only manage to "hop" as part of the swing -- no momentum is generated, just superfluous motion. Even when the motion of the arm is more or less fine, it looks "slappy" because without the core involvement, the arm is doing 100% of the work, and is being pulled quickly across a stationary body. You can often see this most clearly on the follow-through, as the body remains square and the arm "slaps" across the body, instead of the arm and body completing the turn and following through together.

That's why some are seeing a correct arm motion (the arm IS pretty much moving in a path that would be effective if it were integrated with the body), and others are seeing a wristy/slappy motion. Both are right. This is the reason.

I say *USUALLY* because there actually are a couple forehands in that video where it gets accidentally better. Focus on those, OP, and try to replicate that sensation. Look at the difference between the third and the fourth FH's you hit. In the third, the hips come through, followed by the torso, and finally the shoulder and arm. In the fourth, the hips and torso are locked and ineffective. The difference in the quality of those two swings is startling.

 

[geca]

only watched the fh and the bh...

the fh not that bad.... just needs more practice.

the bh is no good and your arm will have TE problem.. you need to completely relax the wrist so the entire arm is passive during the swing.. this will give you more control AND power.

 

[FiReFTW]

Thats very useful and deep advice SinJin, I will try to integrate that and use it to improve my strokes.
I am focusing more on using my body rotation, because in my previous thread someone said I don't use any body rotation only arm, so im focusing alot on trying to pivot and rotate my body, but I guess I don't have a good feeling of that yet and how to integrate the whole body as a unit as a chain, I guess from what your saying im focusing too much on rotating the upper body, so that rotation comes mostly from my shoulders and pivoting the upper body, and I lack the lower chain that starts with the legs and then hips and after that the upper part with the shoulders and arm.

 

[movdqa]

Too much of a swing on the forehand volley and the backhand volley looks like a wrist flick instead of hitting with a firm wrist.

Forehand pretty good. Decent movement though you were out of position for a few short and deep balls. Good acceleration through the stroke.

Backhand needs a lot of work (sorry, too busy to make suggestions).

 

[Daniel_K]

in play the backhand is different than in the practice vid. was that just to keep the ball in play?

 

[FiReFTW]

I didn't really hit any topspin backhands in play, only 2 slices/dropshots

 

[Daniel_K]

yeah thats what i mean. any reason not to hit a topspin backhand?

 

[FiReFTW]

I like to do dropshots alot, specially sidespin ones, dunno I find it entertaining, it just happened to be 2 situations where the ball was a bit shorter and decided to do those, its not like I don't hit normal backhands, at the baseline thats mostly what I do, or maybe try to do a penetrating low slice sometimes.

But I do always try to run around to my forehand if possible, thats why I probably hit like 1000 forehands vs every 50 backhands and prolly why my backhand is so weak in development compared to my forehand.

I should probably try to increase my backhand hits instead of trying to avoid them, that way I might improve faster.

 

[NuBas]

This is the OP's first thread, I think he has done a great job since then especially with no playing time and being self taught.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...elp-improve-from-a-tennis-enthuisiast.574338/

 

[Fxanimator1]

On your forehand, you're moving your feet "during" your contact. Move them before, so that you're not out of position, like the one where you are stretching to reach for the ball, but don't move them around as you're going into contact.

 

[Chas Tennis]

This serve looks like the Waiter's Tray technique with the racket facing up at this time.

Article explaining.
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php

Probably 50% or more servers in the NTRP range of 3.0-4.5 serve with a Waiter's Tray serve - it's the most common technique used in serving.

You will see high level serves using more internal shoulder rotation and ATP players looking like Nalbandian in the picture on the right. Checkpoints like these result from complex motions and each position has body part velocities and states of the muscles, particularly stretched muscles, that are not shown in the picture. You can't just go to checkpoint positions to get the proper service motion.

There are no descriptions on what a WT serve should be. Advice for a high level serve may or may not help a WT.

The high level serve on the other hand has been studied in detail and some common flaws have been described.

There is one video, that I know of, that describes improving performance of a WT serve - Hammer That Serve, Pat Dougherty. He talks about hammering technique instead of calling it Waiter's Tray. He uses the term 'advanced serve' instead of high level serve but does not mention the most important joint motion, internal shoulder rotation.

I'd advise anybody to study some of the existing research as found in books such as
Technique Development for Tennis Stroke Production, 2009, Elliott, Reid, Crespo. (I believe that the one hand backhand chapter could be better). Available ITF Store or Kindle.

A brief review article with some of the main directions of tennis brought on by new biomechanics understanding is
Biomechanics and Tennis, (2006) Elliott
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481/

I tend to refer to the whole situation as the Tennis Serve Nuthouse.

 

[watungga]

If the forehand looks slappy and wristy, what if he does that in a grinding match and still the same power after say... 2 hours. OP could be using kinetic motion and NOT a strain is exerted on every part of his FH arm. What I'm saying is, there could be little effort he makes to blast the ball everytime. Will that still be called slappy/wristy?