Stats for 1984 USO SF(McEnroe-Connors)

[abmk]

Yes. That would be nice. But the highlights are so many that 15 minutes may be too little and I may feel I missed something.

Make that 20 mins then. But you get the essence of my point.

 

[pc1]

Make that 20 mins then. But you get the essence of my point.

Yes I do!

 

[BringBackWood]

seems mac was just not playing too well.

Well in 84 if Mac was absolutely on the whole match, then it probably wouldn't have been such a great match. He played fantastic in this match overall. As someone said, a great rally does not always end in a winner. One of the most memorable rallies in this match was Mac giving Jimmy nearly every type of shot unit Jimmy made a UE. There were however plenty of winners. On my copy CBS show the winner counts near the end of the 4th and Connors was on 50 winners (not including aces). Jimmy kinda ran out of steam a bit in the 5th. Whereas Mac actually raised his level in the 5th from the 4th.

 

[jrepac]

This was a really impressive performance by Connors after getting utterly humiliated at Wimbledon. He was always someone who thrived off a challenge or when he felt he had something to prove. One of the gutsiest and most driven champions ever. Still glad McEnroe won to complete his historic great year though.

Yeah, I think his pride was at stake. I was not optimistic after Wimbledon, as well as the French drubbing, where Jimmy was favored over John by some. But, the USO was always Jimmy's sweet spot, let's face it. He was strong there until the close of the decade (aside from '86). Lendl's comments, I think, were in '92? In '84, Jimmy was still quite competitive with Ivan. For me, '84 was his last really strong year. Mac was his obstacle throughout.

 

[Gizo]

I loved this match. It was just a joy to watch with consistently excellent tennis from both players. I loved the baseline rallies and overall variety on show. Mac's ability to change the pace and mix his spins in those rallies was breathtaking. In my opinion it was a better quality match than their other titanic SF from 1980 which Mac won in a final set tiebreak, when both players had longer lulls and dips (it was still hugely entertaining though).

McEnroe was in awe of Connors and the performance that he put in at the end of this match. It was probably the most complimentary that he ever was to Jimbo during their mutual playing days (of course they both hated but respected each other).

Given that these 2 players ruled the USO with 9 titles between them in 11 years from 1974-1984, including 7 in a row from 1978-1984, it was a huge shame that they never faced each other in a final there. That would have been fitting. Obviously Borg in 1981 and Lendl in 1982 got in the way, but in 1983 before Mac was upset by his enemy Scanlon they were projected to face each other in the semis as well.

 

[Waspsting]

McEnroe d Connors 6-4 4-6 7-5 4-6 6-3
McEnroe had 53 winners: 10 fh, 5 bh, 22 fh, 8 bhv, 8 ov
Connors had 53 winners: 12 fh, 30 bh, 6 fhv, 3 bhv, 2 ov

McEnroe had 6 passing shot winners, 3 fh, 3 bh
Connors had 38 (28 bh, 10 fh)

1) Breaking down these numbers further (with overheards excluded), I'm getting -

At net - Volley vs Pass
Connors 9 volley winners vs McEnroe 6 passing shot winners - Connors +3 at net
McEnroe 30 volley winners vs Connors 38 passing shot winners - Connors +8 (with Mac at net)

How did you count lobs? As passing shots?

2) Differentiating volley, passing shot and groundstroke(?) winners further

Volley Winners
Connors - 6 forehand, 3 backhand
McEnroe - 22 forehand, 8 backhand

Passing Shot Winners
Connors - 10 forehand, 28 backhand
McEnroe - 3 forehand, 3 backhand

Groundstroke Winners
Connors - 2 forehands, 2 backhand
McEnroe- 7 forehands, 2 backhand

(I'm taking it that passing shot winners are included in the overall winners numbers?)


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- McEnroe's strength on the forehand groundstroke is noteworthy... that's a lot of winners in what I assume are baseline rally situations, suggesting he was more than capable of going shot for shot from the back of the court against even Jimmy Connors, contrary to popular depictions of his game

- no conclusions possible regarding volley-passing shot dynamics... was Mac approaching/volleying mainly to Connors' backhand? Was Connors mainly trying to pass Mac's forehand side?.... the usual smart play of approaching to the backhand probably doesn't apply to Connors, and Mac would of course have known this

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What a brilliant contrast of styles. I hope we see its likes again... doesn't look terribly likely right now

Given that these 2 players ruled the USO with 9 titles between them in 11 years from 1974-1984, including 7 in a row from 1978-1984, it was a huge shame that they never faced each other in a final there. That would have been fitting.

I remember the atmosphere for the Agassi-Sampras finals of 95 and 2002... I think this would have topped even that, probably helped by their not great personal regard for one another and less than gentlemanly ways of expression

 

[Gizo]

I remember the atmosphere for the Agassi-Sampras finals of 95 and 2002... I think this would have topped even that, probably helped by their not great personal regard for one another and less than gentlemanly ways of expression

A Connors-McEnroe final would have been huge and a far bigger sporting occasion than those Sampras-Agassi finals were IMO. They were both huge superstars in the US and globally. Agassi was a huge superstar but Sampras simply wasn't despite his amazing success. For a US player that won so much, his TV ratings when he wasn't playing Agassi weren't that great.

Also tennis was just far more popular in the US during Connors's and Mac's heyday compared to Sampras's and Agassi's era. Plus I agree that their mutual dislike of each other would have spiced things up even more. In individual sports far more than team sports, personalities and feuding help increase popularity and TV ratings.

On a similar note, it was also a shame that their only 2 matches against each other at the Masters in MSG were in their RR groups in 1978 and 1981 (both of which were won by Mac), and that we never got a final (or even semi-final) between there either. After Borg scaled back his schedule and withdrew from regular top level tennis, the officials and organisers were very keen for a big Mac-Jimbo showdown at MSG. Of the course the main barrier there was Lendl, who beat Connors in 3 consecutive Masters semi-finals from 1982-1984, with Mac waiting for him in the final.

 

[Moose Malloy]

1) Breaking down these numbers further (with overheards excluded), I'm getting -

At net - Volley vs Pass
Connors 9 volley winners vs McEnroe 6 passing shot winners - Connors +3 at net
McEnroe 30 volley winners vs Connors 38 passing shot winners - Connors +8 (with Mac at net)

How did you count lobs? As passing shots?

2) Differentiating volley, passing shot and groundstroke(?) winners further

Volley Winners
Connors - 6 forehand, 3 backhand
McEnroe - 22 forehand, 8 backhand

Passing Shot Winners
Connors - 10 forehand, 28 backhand
McEnroe - 3 forehand, 3 backhand

Groundstroke Winners
Connors - 2 forehands, 2 backhand
McEnroe- 7 forehands, 2 backhand

(I'm taking it that passing shot winners are included in the overall winners numbers?)


---

- McEnroe's strength on the forehand groundstroke is noteworthy... that's a lot of winners in what I assume are baseline rally situations, suggesting he was more than capable of going shot for shot from the back of the court against even Jimmy Connors, contrary to popular depictions of his game

- no conclusions possible regarding volley-passing shot dynamics... was Mac approaching/volleying mainly to Connors' backhand? Was Connors mainly trying to pass Mac's forehand side?.... the usual smart play of approaching to the backhand probably doesn't apply to Connors, and Mac would of course have known this

---

What a brilliant contrast of styles. I hope we see its likes again... doesn't look terribly likely right now




I remember the atmosphere for the Agassi-Sampras finals of 95 and 2002... I think this would have topped even that, probably helped by their not great personal regard for one another and less than gentlemanly ways of expression

Groundstroke winners means any winner hit off the bounce, including short balls within the service line. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions about Mac's fh winner count, I doubt any were in baseline to baseline situations. In 1984 it was rare for groudstroke winners to be hit when both players were at the baseline, pretty much Lendl was the only one who did that. Agassi and Courier then took that to a new level. And so on...

And yes I include passing shot winners in the total winners. And I would include lob winners as passing shot winners as well (don't always track lobs separately though, the more stats, the more work it is)

Many of Connors passing shot winners were return winners. And Mac did serve a lot to his bh. This thread is from 2010 btw, so I can't remember all the details. And I wasn't tracking as many things as I do today(for instance I tracked Connors return winners vs his return errors in my thread on his matches with Tanner)

I should probably rewatch this one and take new stats but too many other matches interest me more at the moment.

Btw, why did you exclude overheads in your breakdown? It's often hard to decide what is a volley and what is an overhead, esp when you look at high volleys right on top of the net. And the famous Connors skyhook overhead smash looks sort of like a volley. His grunt sells it though

 

[Waspsting]

why did you exclude overheads in your breakdown? It's often hard to decide what is a volley and what is an overhead, esp when you look at high volleys right on top of the net. And the famous Connors skyhook overhead smash looks sort of like a volley. His grunt sells it though

I wasn't sure if you included lobs as passing shots - I reasoned probably not as they are sufficiently different from passing shots that you would have mentioned it if you had

If no lobs, no overheads ... that was my reasoning

I've never done stats for a match... come to think of it, it must be difficult to know what to include as what

Not to mention a pain... I'd hate to watch (or even re-watch) a masterpiece of a match and instead of just letting it wash over me, be focused on marking notes

Groundstroke winners means any winner hit off the bounce, including short balls within the service line. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions about Mac's fh winner count, I doubt any were in baseline to baseline situations.

Hadn't thought of that

Another deceptive one would be Agassi's way of letting a weak defensive lob bounce in front of the service line and then overheading it for a winner

How to categorize that? It's a groundstroke overhead winner, not a volley

 

[thor's hammer]

One of the best matches ever - it had everything, and more! ;-)

 

[pc1]

This was one of my favorite matches ever too... unfortunately earlier this year my VHS player ate the tape while I was watching it... Another favorite is a Wimbledon match I had with Hana and Martina... where Hana played the best first 4 games I have ever seen by a woman, it was sad she lost the match in 2 sets.

I am going to have to do something about getting another copy of the Connnor/Mac USO 84 semi though.

I transferred my copy to DVD just in case.