Stats for 1985 FO SF (Wilander-McEnroe)

[Moose Malloy]

Wilander d McEnroe 6-1, 7-5, 7-5

Mac was the #1 seed, Wilander 4

Mac had 47 non-service winners: 5 fh, 10 bh, 16 fhv, 14 bhv, 2 ov
Wilander had 31: 16 fh, 7 bh, 4 fhv, 3 bhv, 1 ov

winners by set:
Mac - 5, 23, 19
Wilander - 8, 10, 13

Wilander was 91 of 127 on 1st serves, or 72%
Mac was 60 of 106 or 57%

Mac had 5 aces & 2 doubles
Wilander had 1 ace, 1 double

Wilander had 22 unreturned serves, 2 of which I judged as service winners
Mac had 10 unreturned serves, 1 I judged as a service winner

Wilander was 7 of 14 on break points
Mac was 2 of 15

Wilander had 19 passing shot winners - 13 fh, 6 bh
Mac had 4 passing shot winners - 2 fh, 2 bh

In Mac's book, he misremembers some details about this match, saying that he had set points at 5-4 in the 2nd. He had no set points, he was always serving 2nd in that set, & the only break occurred at 5-6, Mac serving. But despite getting that detail wrong, his sentiment is spot on, he had so many chances in that 2nd set(was 0 for 8 on break points), it really should have been a set a piece(mats converted his only bp of that set, which also happened to be a set point)

He was up 5-1 in the 3rd as well, lost 6 straight games to lose the match.
At 3-5, Wilander serving, Mac had 2 sets points that Mats saved by serve & volleying on 1st serves, drawing return errors.

This match is understandably not as famous as Mac's loss to Lendl the previous year, but this was another great opportunity for him to win the French imo.

His level of play in this match was quite high, had he made the final that year I think he would have had a very good shot at winning the title.

 

[roundiesee]

Moose, do you have any idea who Mac would likely have faced in the semi and the final if he had progressed past Wilander? Thanks!

 

[AustraliA]

I have also read Mac's book.

A good read. But alot of non fiction in that bad boy..

I guess he felt he needed to make it interesting..

Never liked the guy, never will.. But enjoyed the read none the less.

Boris Beckers book was much better.. Although I would love to see Wilander write a book..

 

[krosero]

This match is understandably not as famous as Mac's loss to Lendl the previous year, but this was another great opportunity for him to win the French imo.

His level of play in this match was quite high, had he made the final that year I think he would have had a very good shot at winning the title.

It does seem like a high level because he hit winners or aces on 20% of all the points in the match, compared to 23% when he lost to Lendl the previous year.

This sf turns out to have an average of 7.5 points per game, which is the highest confirmed average in the matches we've done (we had Henin-Sharapova at 7.4).

 

[Moose Malloy]

^do you know if the nytimes had any articles on this match?

This sf turns out to have an average of 7.5 points per game, which is the highest confirmed average in the matches we've done (we had Henin-Sharapova at 7.4).

With some of the matches we didn't get total points on('87 USO Final, '82 FO Final, etc), were there any nytimes/washington post articles that had that info?

 

[krosero]

With some of the matches we didn't get total points on('87 USO Final, '82 FO Final, etc), were there any nytimes/washington post articles that had that info?

Not on those two examples you mention, but occasionally something does appear in the print media, or I complete a midmatch graphic. In the big chart on winners, the column for Total Points Played has all the info I was able to get, whether from our counts or other sources.

Those boxes used to be filled in with ATP stats but I've edited the chart and taken out all ATP stats from the '90s -- except in those few cases whether the ATP is supported by another source.

I'll see what there is on Mats-Mac.

 

[krosero]

From the NYT:

June 8, 1985
MCENROE, CONNORS ELIMINATED IN PARIS
By SAMUEL ABT, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
For different reasons, neither John McEnroe nor Jimmy Connors was ready today for his semifinal match in the French Open tennis championship. Their opponents, Mats Wilander and Ivan Lendl, were more than ready, and so they advanced in straight sets to Sunday's final of the Grand Slam tournament.

Lendl, seeded second and the defending champion, easily defeated Connors, 6-2, 6-3, 6-1. Wilander, the fourth-seeded player, had little trouble with the top-seeded McEnroe, winning, 6-1, 7-5, 7-5.

The results meant that once again American men would be thwarted in their effort to capture the singles title. The last American to win the men's singles title was Tony Trabert in 1955.

Foul Weather Prevails

The matches were played on a raw, blustery day that often sent the red clay swirling at Roland Garros Stadium. A morning of heavy rain dropped the temperature nearly 10 degrees into the high 50's, but it was the wind that bothered McEnroe.

''I thought the critical factor of the match was the conditions,'' he said. ''I couldn't get in a good rhythm. The way he hits his shots, he's got more room for error.''

He referred to Wilander's topspin from the baseline, which contrasted with McEnroe's flatter, attacking style. Many of his shots were erratic and long, and his strong first serve was especially off.

The same wind blew in Wilander's end of the court, but winners don't seem to notice so much. ''It was a little bit windy,'' Wilander said, ''but it was perfect for me. The court was as slow as it can be, which is also perfect for me.''

The 26-year-old American played badly against Wilander, a 21-year-old Swede, failing nine times in the second set to win a break point and take Wilander's service. In the third set, McEnroe led, 5-1, and then dropped the final six games.

Outbursts From McEnroe

He spent a good part of the match shouting at himself and others. ''Idiot,'' he cried out more than once. He ordered a courtside fan to ''put out that cigar,'' and protested a handful of calls. It was not a pretty performance and something was obviously troubling McEnroe.

''I just wasn't ready,'' he confessed. ''The other match went faster than I thought it would go. I ate too close to the match. I wasn't mentally ready. I only got here 20 or 30 minutes before the start.''

Lendl's demolition of Connors took barely two hours, or 40 minutes less than the McEnroe-Wilander match. The 32-year-old American, seeded third, took full responsibility for his defeat.

''My preparation for the French is nonexistent,'' Connors said. ''It's my fault. I have other obligations in tennis and my family life, and I don't have time to get ready. My game is too solid for me to change it for this tournament.

''The hot weather was perfect, but today the conditions changed and my game didn't change. That's my fault, but I just don't have time for clay- court training.''

Connors has been trying unsuccessfully since 1979 to reach the final of the French Open and hinted this week that if he did not win this year, he might not return.

Lendl, a 25-year-old Czechoslovak, defeated McEnroe in five sets for the French championship last year. That victory went far to erase Lendl's reputation of always failing to win the big match.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Here are the stats I took for the final(I'm missing 2 Wilander service points)

Wilander d Lendl 3-6, 6-4, 6-2, 6-2

Lendl had 41 non service winners: 16 fh, 6 bh, 11 fhv, 6 bhv, 2 ov
Wilander had 39: 5 fh, 7 bh, 9 fhv, 11 bhv, 7 ov

winners by set
Lendl - 11, 14, 9, 7
Wilander - 6, 10, 17, 6

Lendl had 10 passing shot winners - 6 fh, 4 bh
Wilander had 8 - 4 fh, 4 bh

Lendl was 47 of 110, or 43% on 1st serves
Wilander was 84 of 111 or 76%

Lendl had 2 aces, 2 doubles
Wilander had 1 ace, 1 double

Lendl had 11 unreturned serves, 1 I judged a service winner
Wilander had 12 unreturned serves, none I judged a service winner

Lendl was 5 of 19 on break points
Wilander was 9 of 22(he broke Lendl all 4 times he served in the 3rd set, including a 20 point 7th game)

NBC stats:

After 3 sets, they had Lendl with 33 winners, 31 unforced errors. They had Wilander with 33 & 20.

At 5-2 in the 3rd set Lendl was 21 of 31 at net, Wilander 22 of 30.

Wilander received $146,235 for winning the title that year.

This was Wilander's 1st tour title since winning the '84 AO(played in December)

Lendl didn't drop a set before the final. Counting the 1st set, he won 19 straight sets. In 1982 Vilas also won 19 straight sets before losing to Wilander in 4 in the final.

here's what SI wrote:

As is so often the case with the spectral Lendl, he looked prepossessing in the earlier rounds but was outmatched in the final. While Wilander has now won four Grand Slam championships before his 21st birthday, and Evert Lloyd owns perhaps the most extraordinary Slam record of all—at least one major title in each of the last 12 years—Lendl now has lost six of seven Slam finals. That's the worst record in history. Against Wilander, he won the first set 6-3, but then watched as, inexorably, Baby Mats muzzled all of his weapons. As Lendl freely admitted, he couldn't win from the backcourt, and then he couldn't win on the attack. Wilander did both, thank you, en route to sweeping the last three sets 6-4, 6-2, 6-2.

 

[krosero]

Lendl had 41 non service winners: 16 fh, 6 bh, 11 fhv, 6 bhv, 2 ov

Wilander had 39: 5 fh, 7 bh, 9 fhv, 11 bhv, 7 ov

I know I'm always going on about it whenever Wilander gets more winners from volleys than from ground strokes, but here it's on clay, and the difference is more than 2-to-1.

 

[Moose Malloy]

I took stats on the other semi:

Lendl d Connors 62, 63, 61

Lendl won 85 pts, Connors 51

Lendl served at 51%(34 of 67)
He won 30 of 34 pts on 1st serve(88%)
and 20 of 33 on 2nd(61%)
8 aces, 4 df's
drew 8 return errors(1 on 2nd serve)
6-10 on break points(Connors made 1st serves on 7 of them)

Connors served at 68%(47 of 69)
He won 24 of 47 pts on 1st serve(51%)
and 10 of 22 on 2nd(45%)
1 ace, no df's
drew 3 return errors(1 on 2nd serve)
had no break points(this is the 2nd match in a major I can recall Lendl not facing break points in - '87 USO QF vs Mac)

non service winners:
Lendl: 17 - 10 fh, 5 bh, 2 bhv
Connors: 15 - 5 fh, 2 bh, 4 fhv, 2 bhv, 2 ov

unforced errors:
Lendl: 13 - 10 fh, 3 bh
Connors: 43 - 25 fh, 15 bh, 3 volleys

net pts:
Lendl: 2-2(100%) in the intro to the final Bud Collins said Lendl only came to net twice in the semis. nice to see my stats line up
Connors: 15-30(50%)

conditions were cold and rainy, and Lendl was hitting pretty deep, so I think it would've been hard for Connors to get to net more.

 

[krosero]

had no break points(this is the 2nd match in a major I can recall Lendl not facing break points in - '87 USO QF vs Mac)

Outside of majors I know of one more, Dec. '86 YEC final, d. Becker 6-4, 6-4, 6-4

 

[big ted]

if mac won i dont think he would have beaten lendl in the final.
at the time he was 0-2 in matches vs. lendl at the FO and lendl also beat him
both times on clay in FO warmup tournaments earlier in year.

 

[WCT]

This thread caught my eye for 2 reasons. I haven't seen that Connors/Lendl match since the day it was played, tape delayed on USA network. I remembered it being bad, but not that bad. Look at that poin differential.

Mcenroe/Wilander. Mats had twice as many unreturned serves? Mcenroe only had 10 unreturned serves? Only 3 sets, but the last 2 were long sets.

Moose said he played really well. I have no real recollection of this match. I remember in their 83 match, which was 4 sets, that Mcenroe led 4-2 in the third or fourth set. It was pretty close. And that was a year Lendl had been knocked out. I was figuring if he got past Wilander that he had a chance. He had beaten Noah on clay before. The Davis Cup Final the year before. He might have had another match before then, though. Wilander might have been the quarters. I just remember thinking of that as a year that he had a chance.

 

[jrepac]

I took stats on the other semi:

Lendl d Connors 62, 63, 61

Lendl won 85 pts, Connors 51


unforced errors:
Lendl: 13 - 10 fh, 3 bh
Connors: 43 - 25 fh, 15 bh, 3 volleys

net pts:
Lendl: 2-2(100%) in the intro to the final Bud Collins said Lendl only came to net twice in the semis. nice to see my stats line up
Connors: 15-30(50%)

conditions were cold and rainy, and Lendl was hitting pretty deep, so I think it would've been hard for Connors to get to net more.

Heavy, wet red clay was perhaps the absolute worst surface for a 32yr old Connors to square off against Lendl. I remember watching this one and it was painful. Connors' forehand was quite erratic this day, as the stats above show. Sunny conditions, a drier, faster court, he might've had a chance at it. And even, then, it would've been tough. At that stage of their careers, Lendl was beginning to dominate and only on a faster surface (grass, indoor) could Connors really challenge him.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Wct, McEnroe was trying to come in on wilander's serve, which led to making more return errors.

 

[WCT]

Heavy, wet red clay was perhaps the absolute worst surface for a 32yr old Connors to square off against Lendl. I remember watching this one and it was painful. Connors' forehand was quite erratic this day, as the stats above show. Sunny conditions, a drier, faster court, he might've had a chance at it. And even, then, it would've been tough. At that stage of their careers, Lendl was beginning to dominate and only on a faster surface (grass, indoor) could Connors really challenge him.

Let's face it, Lendl spanked Connors on multiple surfaces. He beat him love and love on American clay the year before. He beat him one and one on hard courts in 82. He spanked him indoors several times. I think the 83 Masters was three and one. On the right day, especially in later years, he might wipe him out on any surface save Grass.

Connors did play him close sometimes, though. What stood out in this match was the point totals. He wasn't even coming close to breaking him.

Thanks, Moose. That explains Wilander, but Mcenroe with only 10 free points on serve? I do remember it being rainy that day. Perhaps that was a big part.

 

[hoodjem]

I took stats on the other semi:

Lendl d Connors 62, 63, 61
Lendl won 85 pts, Connors 51
Lendl served at 51%(34 of 67)
He won 30 of 34 pts on 1st serve(88%)
and 20 of 33 on 2nd(61%)
8 aces, 4 df's
drew 8 return errors(1 on 2nd serve)
6-10 on break points(Connors made 1st serves on 7 of them)

Connors served at 68%(47 of 69)
He won 24 of 47 pts on 1st serve(51%)
and 10 of 22 on 2nd(45%)
1 ace, no df's
drew 3 return errors(1 on 2nd serve)
had no break points(this is the 2nd match in a major I can recall Lendl not facing break points in - '87 USO QF vs Mac)

non service winners:
Lendl: 17 - 10 fh, 5 bh, 2 bhv
Connors: 15 - 5 fh, 2 bh, 4 fhv, 2 bhv, 2 ov

unforced errors:
Lendl: 13 - 10 fh, 3 bh
Connors: 43 - 25 fh, 15 bh, 3 volleys

net pts:
Lendl: 2-2(100%) in the intro to the final Bud Collins said Lendl only came to net twice in the semis. nice to see my stats line up
Connors: 15-30(50%)

conditions were cold and rainy, and Lendl was hitting pretty deep, so I think it would've been hard for Connors to get to net more.

Yep, in the other semi, Lendl beat Connors easily.

The head-to-head between Lendl and Connors is 22-13 in favor of Lendl.

Connors won the first 8 meetings through 1981.
After that 1982-84, they went back and forth.
Starting in 1984, Lendl went on a period of dominance and won their last 17 meetings.

The RG semi in '84 was part of this tear by Lendl. Connors was no match for Lendl by this time. (Connors was 32 years of age. Lendl was 24, but he had turned pro at age 18, so he was a 6-year tour veteran by age 24. By 1984-85 Lendl was entering his peak physically and experientially.)

 

[Moose Malloy]

WCT, 14% of Mac's serves were unreturned vs Wilander. For comparison here are his numbers in the other clay court matches we have for him.
1982 DC vs Noah: 21.6%
1984 RG vs Arias: 31.7%
1984 RG vs Connors: 31.5%
1984 RG vs Lendl: 22.6%
1988 RG vs Lendl(cold and rainy for first 2.5 sets): 28.3%

So it does seem like it was unusual serving day vs Wilander. it's been a while since I've watched the match, so I can't offer any more insight into why that was the case, but it is interesting to see that Noah only had a rate of 15.3% vs Wilander in the 83 RG final.maybe it was just harder to get free points off serve vs him on clay.

 

[jrepac]

Let's face it, Lendl spanked Connors on multiple surfaces. He beat him love and love on American clay the year before. He beat him one and one on hard courts in 82. He spanked him indoors several times. I think the 83 Masters was three and one. On the right day, especially in later years, he might wipe him out on any surface save Grass.

Connors did play him close sometimes, though. What stood out in this match was the point totals. He wasn't even coming close to breaking him.

Thanks, Moose. That explains Wilander, but Mcenroe with only 10 free points on serve? I do remember it being rainy that day. Perhaps that was a big part.

The point was not about Lendl's ability to beat Connors, simply that heavy, red clay was perhaps the worst surface for Connors to play Lendl. Much like grass was the worst for Lendl to face Connors. Through late '84, the two were rather evenly matched. But Lendl was about to ascend and Connors to decline as 1985 developed.

 

[dgold44]

MAC is by far, the most hated guy in the history of Tennis.
Still at age 60 he blows up all the time on the Senior Tour, and no, its not on purpose.
The guy has always been a total mental case and ATP should of banned him many times.
So he has great volleys.. I rather watch Edberg or Rosewall play they have great volleys and are polite and quiet

 

[WCT]

The point was not about Lendl's ability to beat Connors, simply that heavy, red clay was perhaps the worst surface for Connors to play Lendl. Much like grass was the worst for Lendl to face Connors. Through late '84, the two were rather evenly matched. But Lendl was about to ascend and Connors to decline as 1985 developed.

I'm aware what your point was. Did I dispute, anywhere in my reply to yours, that wet, red clay was possibly Connors' worst surface? My point was and still is, he might have beaten him like that, anyway. Again, in 1984, when you claim they are about even, Lendl beat him love and love on har tru.

By this point in 1985 I wouldn't have picked Connors over Lendl on any clay court, But, no argument, the odds got even worse playing him in those conditions. To each his own. Me, when he gets thumped the way he got thumped, court conditions were not what came to my mind. He would have had to put up more of a fight before I started thinking, if only it had been a dry court.

Great stats, Moose. That percentage of service winners really pits it in context. Just saying 50 free points versus 30 can be misleading.

I'm especially glad that you listed all those 1984 matches. This is my recollection from watching back then. It wasn't even about free points. He was doing a lot of serving and volleying and I remember thinking, as I watched back then, he's not even having to play that many tough volleys.

He was just so dominant until 2 sets into the final. I'm one who always fights against the Mcenroe drove org from the game because he'd gotten too good for him. You don't own someone until you can beat them on their surface.

Mcenroe hadn't had that much clay court success, relatively speaking, before this year. He had won Forest Hills in 1983.
I think that might have been his first clay court title. But in 84, he was just thumping people, even on clay. Forest Hills again, then the World Team Cup. I think he beat Lendl at least twice, badly each time. Clerc once or twice, badly again. These guys who had traditionally given him clay court trouble, he was just wiping out. Until 2 sets up in the finals.

But now you have me curious what some of his free service point percentages were on faster surfaces. If i ever do any more stats on Connors matches(been a couple years), I think I'll incorporate this stat.

 

[jrepac]

I'm aware what your point was. Did I dispute, anywhere in my reply to yours, that wet, red clay was possibly Connors' worst surface? My point was and still is, he might have beaten him like that, anyway. Again, in 1984, when you claim they are about even, Lendl beat him love and love on har tru.

By this point in 1985 I wouldn't have picked Connors over Lendl on any clay court, But, no argument, the odds got even worse playing him in those conditions. To each his own. Me, when he gets thumped the way he got thumped, court conditions were not what came to my mind. He would have had to put up more of a fight before I started thinking, if only it had been a dry court.

.

I would not have picked Connors over Lendl on any clay surface either. But, it was the RG semis and Lendl was not the most consistent performer at that time. Up until that point, he had not beaten Connors at a GS event. This is not yet the Lendl of the late '80s...he could still be spotty at times. I saw the '84 semi match at Forest Hills; Lendl played great, Connors, horribly. [Then Lendl got clocked by McEnroe, if memory serves me right.] Faster court, under any circumstances would typically help Connors (or Mac, for that matter). But, at 32yrs old, the odds were very much against him. Really, through the end of '85, I did not view Lendl as "invincible. " He was starting to clearly get the better of Connors, yet was getting trounced by Mac and sometimes losing to Wilander (like at RG that year). But, once he won the USO final vs. Mac, things really started to take off for him.

 

[krosero]

I'm aware what your point was. Did I dispute, anywhere in my reply to yours, that wet, red clay was possibly Connors' worst surface? My point was and still is, he might have beaten him like that, anyway. Again, in 1984, when you claim they are about even, Lendl beat him love and love on har tru.

By this point in 1985 I wouldn't have picked Connors over Lendl on any clay court, But, no argument, the odds got even worse playing him in those conditions. To each his own. Me, when he gets thumped the way he got thumped, court conditions were not what came to my mind. He would have had to put up more of a fight before I started thinking, if only it had been a dry court.

Great stats, Moose. That percentage of service winners really pits it in context. Just saying 50 free points versus 30 can be misleading.

I'm especially glad that you listed all those 1984 matches. This is my recollection from watching back then. It wasn't even about free points. He was doing a lot of serving and volleying and I remember thinking, as I watched back then, he's not even having to play that many tough volleys.

He was just so dominant until 2 sets into the final. I'm one who always fights against the Mcenroe drove org from the game because he'd gotten too good for him. You don't own someone until you can beat them on their surface.

Mcenroe hadn't had that much clay court success, relatively speaking, before this year. He had won Forest Hills in 1983.
I think that might have been his first clay court title. But in 84, he was just thumping people, even on clay. Forest Hills again, then the World Team Cup. I think he beat Lendl at least twice, badly each time. Clerc once or twice, badly again. These guys who had traditionally given him clay court trouble, he was just wiping out. Until 2 sets up in the finals.

But now you have me curious what some of his free service point percentages were on faster surfaces. If i ever do any more stats on Connors matches(been a couple years), I think I'll incorporate this stat.

WCT, any stats you get will be nice to see again

 

[Moose Malloy]

WCT, here are some stats on unreturned serves for Mac at Wimbledon:
1980 vs Connors: 42.1%
1980 vs Borg: 38.9%
1981 vs Borg: 34.8%
1982 vs Connors: 34.8%
1983 vs Lendl: 49.5%
1984 vs Connors: 47.3%

And a couple vs Wilander
1985 USO: 26.4%
1983 Masters: 34.1%

 

[NonP]

WCT, here are some stats on unreturned serves for Mac at Wimbledon:
1980 vs Connors: 42.1%
1980 vs Borg: 38.9%
1981 vs Borg: 34.8%
1982 vs Connors: 34.8%
1983 vs Lendl: 49.5%
1984 vs Connors: 47.3%

And a couple vs Wilander
1985 USO: 26.4%
1983 Masters: 34.1%

Two more for Mac (at Wimbledon):

1977 SF l. Connors - 29.4% (40/136), with 5 aces
1989 SF l. Edberg (courtesy of @slice serve ace) - 40% (50/125), with 8 aces

 

[Moose Malloy]

^where did you get the stats for 77 Wimbledon semi? Do you have anything else on that match?

 

[NonP]

^where did you get the stats for 77 Wimbledon semi? Do you have anything else on that match?

Have no clue. It's been so long I can't even tell which thread I saw some of these numbers in. Afraid I don't have anything else on that match except Jimbo's own stats: 28/118 (4 aces) for 23.7%.

 

[WCT]

I would not have picked Connors over Lendl on any clay surface either. But, it was the RG semis and Lendl was not the most consistent performer at that time. Up until that point, he had not beaten Connors at a GS event. This is not yet the Lendl of the late '80s...he could still be spotty at times. I saw the '84 semi match at Forest Hills; Lendl played great, Connors, horribly. [Then Lendl got clocked by McEnroe, if memory serves me right.] Faster court, under any circumstances would typically help Connors (or Mac, for that matter). But, at 32yrs old, the odds were very much against him. Really, through the end of '85, I did not view Lendl as "invincible. " He was starting to clearly get the better of Connors, yet was getting trounced by Mac and sometimes losing to Wilander (like at RG that year). But, once he won the USO final vs. Mac, things really started to take off for him.

No, he had never beaten him ina GS, but they'd never played on clay. And it's not like Lendl never won any big matches against him. Unless you didn't consider the Masters major.
He'd beaten him 3 straight times there.

No, Lendl wasn't invincible, but he had gotten over that one big hurdle. He won the 84 French, his first GS title. It's not about was Lendl at his peak. It's about where Connors was at the point versus Lendl at that point. Then the surface. Connors has never advanced past the semis. Lendl has won it and been a finalist another time, giving Borg a 5 set match.
Connors has not won a single tournament that year. Take all these factors into place, I don't see Connors beating Lendl on red clay no matter what the conditions. Could he have? Of course. It's why they play the matches.

Oh, yeah, the 1984 Forest Hills. That Lendl got whacked by Mac after bageling Connors, to me, spoke more about How Mcenroe was playing than a slight on Lendl. Who wasn't at his peak, but I think pretty clearly a far superior clay court player than Connors.. At that point since Connors had much success on it earlier in his career. Beat Lendl on it a couple times. But that qas 1979 and 1980, this was 1984.

Thanks for the stats, Moose. They certainly bear out what you'd think, that grass would be the most difficult surface to return. Hard courts would be in the middle with the truer bounce. Couple of those matches basically half his serves are free points. Such an advantage.

I'm surprised to see how high Connors was in his 77 semi, a match I never did stats for. And I mean high for Connors. But early on Mcenroe was often careless with his service return. Missing easy returns more than you'd expect.

Krosero, I will. Just remember that I don't do them like as comprehensively as you or Moose. I was doing it for Connors net stats and service free points both for and against. I always thought it was at a pretty significant disadvantage versus Borg and Mcenroe because of their serves being so much bigger. You spot them 15 points ahead of time, it's hard. These guys were hard enough to beat without that

 

[jrepac]

N
Oh, yeah, the 1984 Forest Hills. That Lendl got whacked by Mac after bageling Connors, to me, spoke more about How Mcenroe was playing than a slight on Lendl. Who wasn't at his peak, but I think pretty clearly a far superior clay court player than Connors.. At that point since Connors had much success on it earlier in his career. Beat Lendl on it a couple times. But that qas 1979 and 1980, this was 1984.

1979 Lendl was not the Lendl of '84/'85....same could be said of Connors, I agree. In '84, Mac pretty much ruled on all surfaces, let's face it. He even made Lendl look bad....until he ran out of steam in the RG final. Mac clobbered Connors in the RG semis (who he had never beaten on clay and Jimmy was playing well that season) and then came within games of winning RG. So, Lendl had his big break, but then he doesn't follow thru at Wimbledon or USO, falling to Connors and Mac, respectively. This is why in mid '85 I didn't feel that Lendl was quite the uber-dominant force he would yet become. And, this is why I think from '80-85, you really had some of the best matches as it was never certain who would win when you had Borg, Mac, Connors, Lendl and Wilander in the mix. Just a lot of top notch competition and some nail biters.

 

[WCT]

I will say this. If Connors had gotten past Mcenroe in that 84 US Open semi, I think he would have beaten Lendl in the final.
Possibly in straight sets. Obviously, the detriment would have been that hr played the late match, ending 9 at nightish.

However, he was playing so well. I have always thought that this was the Connors/Mcenroe match with the highest level of play. I mean consistently high. Mcenroe didn't play like he had at Wimbledon, but he played very well. Served over 60% and I think Connors broke him 8 times. For awhile, that midsize really helped his game. I don't think he had lost a set before the semis.

No later on he may not have liked it, switching back to the T2000 at one point, but he was playing great with it then. And was still using it in japan several months later.

All that said, this was 8 or 9 months later and on a red clay court. I had Lendl as a big favorite. Again, though, that's why they play the matches. Ashe can't beat Connors in 75, except he did, and wiped him out the first 2 sets. Look at the 2015 US Open. BOTH Federer and Djokovic are going to lose to players ranked that far below them? It happened.

Connors certainly COULD have won that 85 match. I just happen to think it was a lot longer shot than you apparently do. Still, he was a top 5 player, I think. The guy certainly had a chance.

 

[krosero]

I took stats on the other semi:

Lendl d Connors 62, 63, 61

Lendl won 85 pts, Connors 51

Lendl served at 51%(34 of 67)
He won 30 of 34 pts on 1st serve(88%)
and 20 of 33 on 2nd(61%)
8 aces, 4 df's
drew 8 return errors(1 on 2nd serve)
6-10 on break points(Connors made 1st serves on 7 of them)

Connors served at 68%(47 of 69)
He won 24 of 47 pts on 1st serve(51%)
and 10 of 22 on 2nd(45%)
1 ace, no df's
drew 3 return errors(1 on 2nd serve)
had no break points(this is the 2nd match in a major I can recall Lendl not facing break points in - '87 USO QF vs Mac)

non service winners:
Lendl: 17 - 10 fh, 5 bh, 2 bhv
Connors: 15 - 5 fh, 2 bh, 4 fhv, 2 bhv, 2 ov

unforced errors:
Lendl: 13 - 10 fh, 3 bh
Connors: 43 - 25 fh, 15 bh, 3 volleys

net pts:
Lendl: 2-2(100%) in the intro to the final Bud Collins said Lendl only came to net twice in the semis. nice to see my stats line up
Connors: 15-30(50%)

conditions were cold and rainy, and Lendl was hitting pretty deep, so I think it would've been hard for Connors to get to net more.

Aggressive Margins

Lendl 18.4%
Connors -6.6% (negative number)

 

[krosero]

Only 4 points lost by Lendl on first serve...

 

[WCT]

Aggressive margins? How is that stat determined, krosero?

 

[krosero]

WCT, this is good article about that stat, by Alberto Brignacca: http://www.daviscup.com/media/108526/108526.pdf

To calculate it, you need only to know how many points each player won in total, and how many unforced errors each player committed.

The simplest formula for it would be:

Lendl AM = (Lendl total points won – all UEs in match) / total points played

Then repeat for Connors, so:


Lendl AM = (85-60) / 136 = 18.4%
Connors AM = (51-60) / 136 = -6.6%

 

[WCT]

Thanks. Interesting stat that I never saw before. I really like that % of unreturned serves stats. It gives so much more context that just the total amount of them. I do remember using it the last portion of Connors matches I did. I started doing % of net points. Same thing, context. If I doing any more matches I'll do the same thing with the serve.

 

[jrepac]

I will say this. If Connors had gotten past Mcenroe in that 84 US Open semi, I think he would have beaten Lendl in the final.
Possibly in straight sets. Obviously, the detriment would have been that hr played the late match, ending 9 at nightish.

However, he was playing so well. I have always thought that this was the Connors/Mcenroe match with the highest level of play. I mean consistently high. Mcenroe didn't play like he had at Wimbledon, but he played very well. Served over 60% and I think Connors broke him 8 times. For awhile, that midsize really helped his game. I don't think he had lost a set before the semis.

No later on he may not have liked it, switching back to the T2000 at one point, but he was playing great with it then. And was still using it in japan several months later.

All that said, this was 8 or 9 months later and on a red clay court. I had Lendl as a big favorite. Again, though, that's why they play the matches. Ashe can't beat Connors in 75, except he did, and wiped him out the first 2 sets. Look at the 2015 US Open. BOTH Federer and Djokovic are going to lose to players ranked that far below them? It happened.

Connors certainly COULD have won that 85 match. I just happen to think it was a lot longer shot than you apparently do. Still, he was a top 5 player, I think. The guy certainly had a chance.

Yes, the '84 USO semi, I think was the best Mac v. Connors match, in terms of quality of play by both. Connors redeemed himself after that hideous Wimbledon final. To your point, Mac serving over 60% was usually a wipe out, but not on this night. Connors was all over him. But, I still need to sit down and watch the '80 USO semi from start to finish as some pick that match as the best--it was high drama, clearly. Connors/Mac matches tended to be ragged affairs...peaks and valleys....often one playing very well, the other not so much. Still, they were a lot of fun to watch...2 grenades waiting to explode...just a matter of when it would happen!

I think it would've been a close match w/Lendl...age & fatigue could have hurt Connors. But, he was still competitive against Lendl in '84, on faster surfaces, no question there.

And...Connors never should've dropped the Pro-Staff...dumb, dumb, dumb. He later said that he felt he had less control over his shots with that racket. From an observer's perspective, he seemed to be striking the ball better and his shots were just as explosive. Definitely helped at net. If you recall, he went on a long losing streak from '85-'87..something like 12 finals. Now, some of that was physical breakdown, but he ditched the Pro-staff by the time '86 rolled around. He no longer felt confident with it. But, his results in '86 were god-awful and he was next playing w/the Slazenger, white ceramic racket--early '87, I think. And, guess what? His game did improve--ended the year at #4--ahead of Mac-- and he won 4 more tourneys after that, prior to leaving the ATP tour.

 

[WCT]

I only thought the 84 final was hideous in the result. I saw Connors play so much worse than that. That was the most discouraged I ever was because Mcenroe just toyed with him.

I remember thinking, at the time, this is the best match I've ever seen anyone play. Because Connors was not spraying errors all over the place and he was just utterly crushed. I was wondering how he could ever beat that guy.

Mind you, this is just as I recall it from watching live. I've never watched the match since then. The 1980 US Open semi has periods of patchy play. Mcenroe was out of it for over a set. The 6-0 third set is as much him giving it away as Connors taking it. He had a chance to go up 2 breaks in the fourth. 15-30 he took a Mcenroe volley off his return, in the air, and caught the tape. He goes up 2 breaks, I think he had the match. Of course, Borg was waiting in the final. And Mcenroe didn't serve any 60% in that match.

I don't mean to imply that it's not a great match. I just don't happen to think the level of play was as consistently high as 1984.

 

[Moose Malloy]

I'm surprised to see how high Connors was in his 77 semi, a match I never did stats for. And I mean high for Connors. But early on Mcenroe was often careless with his service return. Missing easy returns more than you'd expect.

the 77 numbers NonP listed were for McEnroe, not Connors

 

[WCT]

The 28/114 isn't Connors? I thought it was and I thought 23% vs Mcenroe's 29% wasn't as big of a disparity as I'd expect. Well, this was early in Mcenroe's career. Considering that, perhaps not as surprising as I first thought.

I only had Connors with 9 unreturned serves in the 77 final. I've never rechecked, but I still find it hard to believe. I do the stats on a bigger sheet than transfer the totals off to a smaller one. I usually throw the bigger one out. I did before I noticed how low 9 was. It's what I have writtern down, though. But 9 in 5 sets? Damn low on a grass court for even an average serve.