Teaching a frying pan server the continental grip

[dman72]

I have a buddy who I regularly hit with. I say hit with for the simple reason that playing matches with him is not competitive because his serve is terrible. The last time we played, I had to enforce a "no double fault" rule for him because his serve is that messed up.

His strokes are at least as good as mine, especially technically (from watching video), as my forehand is ugly although more effective in matches than his just because I play more.

I cannot convince this guy to work on his serve with a continental grip. Any time I've seen him try to hit a serve with a continental, he hits the ball with the side of the frame and it travels into the next court or over the fence. He just can't "get it" in terms of hitting the ball on the racquet face with anything other than an eastern forehand grip, bordering on semi-western frying pan, on his serve.

I've tried convincing him to stop even thinking about "serving"..just walk up to service line and self feed yourself overheads hitting with a continental. He thinks the problem is about contact points and shoulder rotations, etc..when it's all about his grip.

It doesn't help that he's around 5'5. I know some people say Becker hit with an Eastern forehand grip on serve, but he's 6'4.

And no, he can't afford lessons.

Where should I start with this guy in re-constructing a serve that at least lands in the box that can't be crushed? T

 

[polski]

Usually, people with frying pan grips use only their arm to serve. There is no hip turn of any sort. Therefore, when they change the grip, they swing the same way & it will get shanked 99% of the time. The other 1% will be an innaccurate heavy spin serve.

Start from the feet & work your way up. The feet need to be getting push off & weight transfer. The kneees & hips need to be torquing up to & through impact. And the body needs to fully follow through, not just the arm, so that the weight has transferred all the way from the back foot to the non-dominant front foot.

 

[fuzz nation]

I'd say to simply move his grip just a little bit away from that frying pan grip toward continental (not all the way) and have him aim maybe four feet to the right of where he normally would. Then just hit some practice balls with the exact same motion. This way, it shouldn't be too drastic of an alteration. He's got to use what he knows to a degree and these two subtle changes should help him on his way to altering his grip. The tricky part is usually getting this sort of server to change his/her instincts for where the ball is going to go.

Small steps instead of a drastic change. If he starts spinning the serve in and landing it with a lot of consistency, he'll probably keep figuring things out on his own.

 

[user92626]

It's very easy when you employ an easy, simple concept when you show him.

Say, have him hold the racket in conti grip, and simply bounce a ball against the ground in front of him. Who couldn't do that?

Then, it's just a matter of tossing a ball up slightly and bounce it against an imaginary vertical ground, ie where the net is.

 

[KenC]

Here is a good place to start

 

[Nellie]

Tell you friend to stay sideways - it feels weird because the muscle memory says to turn the chest to the net, but that just closes the racquet face. The swing path is along the line of the shoulders.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I'd say to simply move his grip just a little bit away from that frying pan grip toward continental (not all the way) and have him aim maybe four feet to the right of where he normally would. Then just hit some practice balls with the exact same motion. This way, it shouldn't be too drastic of an alteration. He's got to use what he knows to a degree and these two subtle changes should help him on his way to altering his grip. The tricky part is usually getting this sort of server to change his/her instincts for where the ball is going to go.

Small steps instead of a drastic change. If he starts spinning the serve in and landing it with a lot of consistency, he'll probably keep figuring things out on his own.

+1 on this. I find that players who can't handle a drastic change to a conti grip will have much less trouble adjusting to a semi-continental grip. Serena uses this latter grip on some, if not most, first serves.

 

[dman72]

Tell you friend to stay sideways - it feels weird because the muscle memory says to turn the chest to the net, but that just closes the racquet face. The swing path is along the line of the shoulders.

Right...he starts sideways..then turns the whole contraption with his shoulders perpendicular to the net while hitting the ball with a flat face frying pan that has no hope of being in unless it's moving 20MPH because of the trajectory.

It's really a train wreck. Funny thing is he took lessons and played on his HS tennis team....you can see it in his backhand and volleys..but the serve... :shock:

 

[xrxpapi12]

Very unorthodox yes, but it is still possible to get decent power and become consistent with that serve through practicing it a lot. If you can't help him just suggest lessons.

 

[Blake0]

He's too comfortable with the grip he uses normally and the continental grip feels weird. He has to take a week and really work on serve with the continental grip. He can't expect to get it to work all together right away like magic.

Get him to watch some FYB fundamentals thing, then go out and serve with continental grip with a basket of balls. Just a simple motion, using mostly upper body only if you need too.

 

[Frank Silbermann]

Usually, people with frying pan grips use only their arm to serve. There is no hip turn of any sort. Therefore, when they change the grip, they swing the same way & it will get shanked 99% of the time. The other 1% will be an inaccurate heavy spin serve.

Start from the feet & work your way up. The feet need to be getting push off & weight transfer. The knees & hips need to be torquing up to & through impact. And the body needs to fully follow through, not just the arm, so that the weight has transferred all the way from the back foot to the non-dominant front foot.

This is the stupidest advice I've heard in a long time.

You have to start with ball contact and work outward. A top player could probably serve 75 miles per hour standing still and just popping his his wrist; but no amount of leg and body motion is going to help you if you don't have the correct racket work.

As for my advice; I've seen people who hit moderately-paced consistent serves with the frying pan grip. I wouldn't recommend it; but one can definitely serve at the 3.0 level with that technique, if it's perfected. But if he wants to learn a proper serve, I would suggest he begin by going to a backboard and hitting moderately sliced forehand ground strokes with a near-continental grip. When he can do that, just tell him to try tossing the ball overhead and hitting it that way. When he can do that, then you can start teaching him pronation via a whip-type action. When he has the whip-type action with the right grip, then and only then should he worry about getting his weight into the shot.

 

[stormholloway]

This is the stupidest advice I've heard in a long time.

If you genuinely want people to listen to your advice, then you should learn to be more civil.

 

[Frank Silbermann]

If you genuinely want people to listen to your advice, then you should learn to be more civil.

Yes, I am guilty. But let's face it; the student in question was, with respect to the serve, a rank beginner. Particularly with respect to a continental grip server, but as it was described to me he didn't even have a reliable frying pan serve.

You do not teach rank beginner about the kinetic chain from feet to hips to shoulders -- you show him hour to hold the racket and how to use that grip to bump the ball over the net.

 

[user92626]

You have to start with ball contact and work outward. A top player could probably serve 75 miles per hour standing still and just popping his his wrist; but no amount of leg and body motion is going to help you if you don't have the correct racket work.

That's a very sound advice and one which I followed. Above, I also advised to first figure out how to contact the ball via the conti grip and swing path and work from there. It's very awkward to first teach tossing, trophy position, throwing body, etc... You'd be too concerned with "correct form" and screw up the natural hitting mechanic which your body tends to figure out on its own.

 

[dman72]

This is the stupidest advice I've heard in a long time.

You have to start with ball contact and work outward. A top player could probably serve 75 miles per hour standing still and just popping his his wrist; but no amount of leg and body motion is going to help you if you don't have the correct racket work.

As for my advice; I've seen people who hit moderately-paced consistent serves with the frying pan grip. I wouldn't recommend it; but one can definitely serve at the 3.0 level with that technique, if it's perfected. But if he wants to learn a proper serve, I would suggest he begin by going to a backboard and hitting moderately sliced forehand ground strokes with a near-continental grip. When he can do that, just tell him to try tossing the ball overhead and hitting it that way. When he can do that, then you can start teaching him pronation via a whip-type action. When he has the whip-type action with the right grip, then and only then should he worry about getting his weight into the shot.

Apart from the insult to the other guy, I completely agree with you. I'm talking with the guy and he's like "contact point this..shoulder rotaton that..ball toss this"...and I'm just shaking my head. None of that stuff means a THING if you are contacting the ball with a frying pan grip 6 feet off the ground...I'm not going to do the actual geometry, but I'm thinking the maximum MPH you can hit the ball is about 20 to have any hope of it landing in.

 

[5th Element]

Totally agree

I'd say to simply move his grip just a little bit away from that frying pan grip toward continental (not all the way) and have him aim maybe four feet to the right of where he normally would. Then just hit some practice balls with the exact same motion. This way, it shouldn't be too drastic of an alteration. He's got to use what he knows to a degree and these two subtle changes should help him on his way to altering his grip. The tricky part is usually getting this sort of server to change his/her instincts for where the ball is going to go.

Small steps instead of a drastic change. If he starts spinning the serve in and landing it with a lot of consistency, he'll probably keep figuring things out on his own.

 

[Aurellian]

Apart from the insult to the other guy, I completely agree with you. I'm talking with the guy and he's like "contact point this..shoulder rotaton that..ball toss this"...and I'm just shaking my head. None of that stuff means a THING if you are contacting the ball with a frying pan grip 6 feet off the ground...I'm not going to do the actual geometry, but I'm thinking the maximum MPH you can hit the ball is about 20 to have any hope of it landing in.

so a frying pan grip can not generate a fast serve?

 

[Timbo's hopeless slice]

in this context they mean trying to generate spin.. most decent players can't even get their head around the idea of serving with no spin, it's just alien

no offence, but just arming the thing flat and hard is pretty useless really..

 

[10sLifer]

I have a buddy who I regularly hit with. I say hit with for the simple reason that playing matches with him is not competitive because his serve is terrible. The last time we played, I had to enforce a "no double fault" rule for him because his serve is that messed up.

His strokes are at least as good as mine, especially technically (from watching video), as my forehand is ugly although more effective in matches than his just because I play more.

I cannot convince this guy to work on his serve with a continental grip. Any time I've seen him try to hit a serve with a continental, he hits the ball with the side of the frame and it travels into the next court or over the fence. He just can't "get it" in terms of hitting the ball on the racquet face with anything other than an eastern forehand grip, bordering on semi-western frying pan, on his serve.

I've tried convincing him to stop even thinking about "serving"..just walk up to service line and self feed yourself overheads hitting with a continental. He thinks the problem is about contact points and shoulder rotations, etc..when it's all about his grip.

It doesn't help that he's around 5'5. I know some people say Becker hit with an Eastern forehand grip on serve, but he's 6'4.

And no, he can't afford lessons.

Where should I start with this guy in re-constructing a serve that at least lands in the box that can't be crushed? T

Well definitely don't discourage him when he strikes the edge of the racquet while trying to use the continental grip. This is very common for people going through this change. Then they will start to slice it into the side fence. Until they start to pronate the forearm(turn the arm to the hit). The body will also be less open. It's important for him to understand that you can even hit flat with a continental grip. It's all about how that forearm turns out. It can take a while to change a motor signal. 6-8 weeks as a general rule. If you can let his serve get even worse for a while, you might eventually end up with a match. Good luck!