Two Handed Forehand-the Future of Tennis !!!

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Big Bagel

Professional
Particularly on clay courts this tactics is very efficient.
It's actually very inefficient, but it is effective for some people. Unfortunately, that won't work for everyone because they need to be more efficient. You can't always be more fit than your opponent.
Each player should be able to play two handed forehand the same as he uses smash and volley.
So almost never? That's how most people, including you from your videos and the way you talk about the game, play. I think I could agree on that; using the two handed forehand almost never.
 

Jannick

Rookie
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Gregory Diamond and arguments.
 
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Gregory Diamond

Professional
It's actually very inefficient, but it is effective for some people. Unfortunately, that won't work for everyone because they need to be more efficient. You can't always be more fit than your opponent.

So almost never? That's how most people, including you from your videos and the way you talk about the game, play. I think I could agree on that; using the two handed forehand almost never.
If I say that two handed forehand should be used the same as smash and volley I just try to be nice. I know that this thread was a great shock for one handed players. We cant be surprised that they cant accept the thought that they use outdated technique. Their only known argument against two handed forehand was the reach. Now they watch my videos and they see that there is no problem with the reach. On the very fast surface I play almost all balls using two handed forehand. They see how my opponents are forced to run when I play great angles. They try to atack me but they know that I win almost everything. Since the beginning of May I have won 40 matches in tournaments on national level and lost only 3(In one of them I was in the lead 6:0 1:0 so I could win). It is excellent result. If two handed forehand was not the reason it would mean that I have some other extraordinary abilities. We should add that I not only use "inferior" forehand but also I dont use split step(I dont jump like a goat) and I have an injured right wrist. It is dominant hand. How is it possible to achieve so great success if even one of these problems could destroy chance for success in tennnis if it concerned other person ?
 

Big Bagel

Professional
In one of them I was in the lead 6:0 1:0 so I could win
... but you didn't, so you can't say that you could have won.
How is it possible to achieve so great success if even one of these problems could destroy chance for success in tennnis if it concerned other person ?
You have been told numerous times many different reasons.
We cant be surprised that they cant accept the thought that they use outdated technique.
One of my favorite sayings comes to mind when you keep bringing this up... if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Most people don't have a disabled one hand, most people don't have a broken forehand, so there's no need to try and fix them. Tweak and improve, sure, but not fix.
 

Gregory Diamond

Professional
... but you didn't, so you can't say that you could have won.

You have been told numerous times many different reasons.

One of my favorite sayings comes to mind when you keep bringing this up... if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Most people don't have a disabled one hand, most people don't have a broken forehand, so there's no need to try and fix them. Tweak and improve, sure, but not fix.

Maybe I was not right. After today`s practice my legs hurt in many places. A week ago I solved the last(I hope) problem with low balls. I just should lower my body. I tried to do it today. I feel as if I did 1000 sit-ups.

Probably I should agree that two handed forehand is not for everybody. Two handed forehand is only for the best players. I mean it is for me. I doubt if Nadal or Federer could lower their body as I can. Their physical fitness is not good enough. Maybe Djokovic could be taught modern two handed forehand. I am not sure.

It is the future of tennis but only for the best. If you want to be an average player you can use one handed forehand. Dont even try two handed forehand because it requires great physical fitness.

 

Big Bagel

Professional
Probably I should agree that two handed forehand is not for everybody. Two handed forehand is only for the best players. I mean it is for me. I doubt if Nadal or Federer could lower their body as I can. Their physical fitness is not good enough. Maybe Djokovic could be taught modern two handed forehand. I am not sure.
As bad as this joke was, I'm sad to say that it actually did make me laugh a little. I guess this thread has been worth it for this small moment of laughter.
 

Gregory Diamond

Professional
I should apologize. I tried to promote two handed forehand but I didnt understand that most people are not prepared mentally and physically to learn it and use it. If your genes are not the best quality you should forget about two handed forehand. Even hard work wouldnt be enough to learn two handed forehand to use it efficiently.
Shortened reach will be an obstacle you will never overcome. But you shouldnt complain. There are many kinds of one handed forehands. One handed technique is easy to learn. It is old tennis but you can win some matches with other one handed players.
 
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RajS

Semi-Pro
@Gregory Diamond : First of all, I agree with all your Physics reasoning, which is very sound. You are also, definitely, a very good player. But I think you are underestimating the stability you can get with a single handed forehand. Having the arm close to the body while making the forward swing and contacting the ball in front of the body as the pros do, puts the whole body behind the ball and arm, and minimizes racket recoil. The arm is positioned such that, like a trap door, it can be moved one way easily (forward) but there is strong resistance to movement the other way (backward), thus solving the problem of control. And you get a few more degrees of freedom in arm movement with a single hand which can be used to create more pace and spin. If this were not true, in the competitive and potentially lucrative world of ATP tennis, a lot of people would have already started using what you are prescribing.

This is not all my original thought, I confess - I discussed this with a friend of mine who has a very high level performance coach, whom he consulted.

But let us agree in advance to disagree, since we want to avoid infinite loops!
 

Gregory Diamond

Professional
@Gregory Diamond : First of all, I agree with all your Physics reasoning, which is very sound. You are also, definitely, a very good player. But I think you are underestimating the stability you can get with a single handed forehand. Having the arm close to the body while making the forward swing and contacting the ball in front of the body as the pros do, puts the whole body behind the ball and arm, and minimizes racket recoil. The arm is positioned such that, like a trap door, it can be moved one way easily (forward) but there is strong resistance to movement the other way (backward), thus solving the problem of control. And you get a few more degrees of freedom in arm movement with a single hand which can be used to create more pace and spin. If this were not true, in the competitive and potentially lucrative world of ATP tennis, a lot of people would have already started using what you are prescribing.

This is not all my original thought, I confess - I discussed this with a friend of mine who has a very high level performance coach, whom he consulted.

But let us agree in advance to disagree, since we want to avoid infinite loops!

959 comments were needed to agree about elementary physics.

It is true that even using one handed forehand you can stabilize the stroke if your right elbow is near your body and even more if it is bent(Krickstein, Sock). I played that way before I injured my wrist.
But we should notice that then you shorten your reach. You are losing greatest advantage over two handed forehand. It is also true that if you play in front of the body you can prevent bouncing the racket back during the collision with the ball( only to some extent because your wrist is not as strong as two hands). But at the same time your right elbow cant do anything during the collision. It is only used to block the racket. You are losing control once more. You also are losing posibility to use energy of rotary motion(Very often people who dont know physics say that the long arm allows to accelerate the ball to much greater speed using turn of the body but they dont understand that the further the arm is from the axis the greater moment of inertia is and it is more difficult to turn the arm with the racket). If you want to stabilize the racket you should play with bent elbow(Sock, Krickstein) but then your reach is even smaller than in two handed forehand. But even playing near your body your stability will never be the same as using two handed forehand. I can compare it because I used both techniques. More degrees of freedom(but you resigned from most of them looking for stability) can help a little.

Almost everything you have to do to stabilize one handed forehand results in a technique almost similar to two handed forehand. You proved that the best one handed forehand is just two handed forehand.

My two handed forehand is really one handed forehand with a little help of left hand. So now we all agree that one handed forehend(I mean my two handed forehand) is the future of tennis.
 
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dnguyen

Hall of Fame

Big Bagel

Professional
Lol, nobody here is denying elementary physics. Nobody has the entire thread. We just disagree on the forehand. The fact that you're using Sock as your representative of a better one handed forehand is hilarious because he has one of the most "modern" swings of anybody. We all know that collisions are about momentum, not just speed. We all know that having an extended arm increases the moment of inertia. But what you don't see in high level forehands is someone extending their arm straight out, then swinging with their body. You see players use their bodies like whips; they aren't swinging everything together the way a figure skater is spinning all together. The key to a good modern forehand is actually deceleration; the legs accelerate the movement, then decelerate to let the hips fire, which accelerate the decelerate letting the core fire, then shoulders, arm, wrist, and racquet. Before the racquet can move reach top speed, everything before it has to slow down to allow it to release forward, just like a whip. A whip can turn a flimsy piece of leather into a precise weapon that can cut people. A body can turn a flimsy 330 gram racquet into a cannon firing back the tennis ball back in the direction from which it came. We all agree on the basic physics, you just underestimate what can be done with one hand holding the racquet.

By the way, I'm not a biomechanist; I've studied some biomechanics so I know the principle is sound, but details might not be exactly right since I haven't looked at it in a while.
 

Jannick

Rookie
Lol, nobody here is denying elementary physics. Nobody has the entire thread. We just disagree on the forehand. The fact that you're using Sock as your representative of a better one handed forehand is hilarious because he has one of the most "modern" swings of anybody. We all know that collisions are about momentum, not just speed. We all know that having an extended arm increases the moment of inertia. But what you don't see in high level forehands is someone extending their arm straight out, then swinging with their body. You see players use their bodies like whips; they aren't swinging everything together the way a figure skater is spinning all together. The key to a good modern forehand is actually deceleration; the legs accelerate the movement, then decelerate to let the hips fire, which accelerate the decelerate letting the core fire, then shoulders, arm, wrist, and racquet. Before the racquet can move reach top speed, everything before it has to slow down to allow it to release forward, just like a whip. A whip can turn a flimsy piece of leather into a precise weapon that can cut people. A body can turn a flimsy 330 gram racquet into a cannon firing back the tennis ball back in the direction from which it came. We all agree on the basic physics, you just underestimate what can be done with one hand holding the racquet.

By the way, I'm not a biomechanist; I've studied some biomechanics so I know the principle is sound, but details might not be exactly right since I haven't looked at it in a while.

Great explanation, love the whip comparison.
Gregory Diamond will ignore absolutely everything you said and talk about some random bullso about the 2hfh having more body power or smth.
 

Gregory Diamond

Professional
Lol, nobody here is denying elementary physics. Nobody has the entire thread. We just disagree on the forehand. The fact that you're using Sock as your representative of a better one handed forehand is hilarious because he has one of the most "modern" swings of anybody. We all know that collisions are about momentum, not just speed. We all know that having an extended arm increases the moment of inertia. But what you don't see in high level forehands is someone extending their arm straight out, then swinging with their body. You see players use their bodies like whips; they aren't swinging everything together the way a figure skater is spinning all together. The key to a good modern forehand is actually deceleration; the legs accelerate the movement, then decelerate to let the hips fire, which accelerate the decelerate letting the core fire, then shoulders, arm, wrist, and racquet. Before the racquet can move reach top speed, everything before it has to slow down to allow it to release forward, just like a whip. A whip can turn a flimsy piece of leather into a precise weapon that can cut people. A body can turn a flimsy 330 gram racquet into a cannon firing back the tennis ball back in the direction from which it came. We all agree on the basic physics, you just underestimate what can be done with one hand holding the racquet.

By the way, I'm not a biomechanist; I've studied some biomechanics so I know the principle is sound, but details might not be exactly right since I haven't looked at it in a while.

You have just described "throwing a racket at the ball". We many times established that it is one of the greatest errors in so called "modern forehand". It leads to losing control. It is main reason why old players like Nadal, Federer and Djokovic(who several years ago should end their careers) beat young players. The level of tennis has never been so low as it is today. We talked about great crisis in tennis. It is reall. Professional tennis is now on the level of seniors from +35 category. This error results from the cult of speed. In tennis there are no points for greatest speed of the ball. Points are for the balls your opponent cant play in the court. Precision, angles, rotation, speed, hight, defence, conservation of energy, minimizing number of unforced errors are equally important. I understand it so I win almost all matches. I almost dont use winners to win. Usually there is no need because other elements are much more effective.
 

Big Bagel

Professional
You have just described "throwing a racket at the ball". We many times established that it is one of the greatest errors in so called "modern forehand". It leads to losing control. It is main reason why old players like Nadal, Federer and Djokovic(who several years ago should end their careers) beat young players. The level of tennis has never been so low as it is today. We talked about great crisis in tennis. It is reall. Professional tennis is now on the level of seniors from +35 category. This error results from the cult of speed. In tennis there are no points for greatest speed of the ball. Points are for the balls your opponent cant play in the court. Precision, angles, rotation, speed, hight, defence, conservation of energy, minimizing number of unforced errors are equally important. I understand it so I win almost all matches. I almost dont use winners to win. Usually there is no need because other elements are much more effective.
Except Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic all hit the ball that way as well, so you are seeming delusional if you think they are winning because of their technique. Besides, increased racquet head speed doesn't necessarily mean less control. In fact, it often means more control due to having greater ease of moving the ball and the added spin as well as the increased confidence in the swing. Winning matches is usually about forced errors, not unforced errors or winners. Nobody wins matches with winners, even when they are treeing with their "modern" technique. You really seem to not understand the modern game of tennis.
 

Gregory Diamond

Professional
Nope not my word. Check post #844. I do not think ill of you at all. I just mentioned that post when somebody called you that to prove that your are actually human :)
I dont say that you were the first to use it. You reminded it without any reason. You tried to be vulgar. You thought about it before you wrote. Now it will not be so easy for you to throw it out of your head. You infected your memory.
 

Big Bagel

Professional
GD, if you could hit the ball harder with more spin, but the same level of control, would you? Because that's what the best players in the world do. They start out focusing on getting the ball in. Then they focus on moving the ball around and aiming it more. Then, they focus on hitting the ball faster and with more spin to create errors from their opponents, because if they just get the ball in, even in the right place, their opponents aren't going to miss, and they will get pushed around. So, they start hitting it harder. They maintain great control because they are tremendous athletes. Players like you and me can't hit the ball as hard because we are not good enough athletes to maintain the same level of control, but they can.
 

grhcan99

Semi-Pro
I dont say that you were the first to use it. You reminded it without any reason. You tried to be vulgar. You thought about it before you wrote. Now it will not be so easy for you to throw it out of your head. You infected your memory.

Just to prove that GD does not ever listen. And he has quite a fertile mind :)
 

Gregory Diamond

Professional
GD, if you could hit the ball harder with more spin, but the same level of control, would you? Because that's what the best players in the world do. They start out focusing on getting the ball in. Then they focus on moving the ball around and aiming it more. Then, they focus on hitting the ball faster and with more spin to create errors from their opponents, because if they just get the ball in, even in the right place, their opponents aren't going to miss, and they will get pushed around. So, they start hitting it harder. They maintain great control because they are tremendous athletes. Players like you and me can't hit the ball as hard because we are not good enough athletes to maintain the same level of control, but they can.
It is obvious that if I could hit the ball with greater speed with the same control I would do it. The problem is that more speed means less control. If we presented the dependence of the control on the speed of the racket on the graph at first increasing the speed would result in increasing of control. But from some speed increasing the speed would result in decreasing of control. We shouldnt exceed that speed.
 

Big Bagel

Professional
It is obvious that if I could hit the ball with greater speed with the same control I would do it. The problem is that more speed means less control. If we presented the dependence of the control on the speed of the racket on the graph at first increasing the speed would result in increasing of control. But from some speed increasing the speed would result in decreasing of control. We shouldnt exceed that speed.
Correct, we shouldn't exceed that speed on most shots. Sometimes it is worth the risk, but not on the average shot. However, that speed is different for every player. For professional players, that speed is leaps and bounds ahead of what you and I are doing. They do not lack control (for the most part). They can play just as consistent as you when they want/need to, they just choose not to, plus they can do it with much greater speeds and spins.
 

Gregory Diamond

Professional
My legs are still hurting after yesterday`s practice. Lowering the body before the stroke is essential in two handed forehand. Only great players can do it. So if your physical fitness is not very good then two handed forehand is not for you. Average players should use one handed forehand. It means that average players should leave this thread. From now on this thread is only for professionals . I dont mean professional players from ATP. We know that most of these players use only arms when they play forehand. They play most forehands with open stance. Their legs are glued to the ground.
 
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Big Bagel

Professional
My legs are still hurting after yeaterday`s practice. Lowering the body before the stroke is essential in two handed forehand. Only great players can do it. So if your physical fitness is not very good then two handed forehand is not for you. Average players should use one handed forehand. It means that average players should leave this thread. From now on this thread is only for professionals . I dont mean professional players from ATP. We know that most of these players use only arms when they play forehand. They play most forehands with open stance. Their legs are glued to the ground.
Lol, you should look at some of their legs... it's impressive, way more impressive than yours or mine.
 

Big Bagel

Professional
But they dont bend it as they should. Probably they have some problems with the knees. I think. It would explain why they dont use their legs.
Except you can see countless videos and pictures of players hitting forehands while in mid-air, no legs touching the ground at all... you kind of have to use your legs to do that.
 

Gregory Diamond

Professional
Except you can see countless videos and pictures of players hitting forehands while in mid-air, no legs touching the ground at all... you kind of have to use your legs to do that.
You have just proved that they not only dont bend their legs., they dont even have contact with the ground. Maybe we revealed main reason of great crisis in tennis. When I try to lower the position of the body coaches force young players to jump before the stroke. Probably they try to imitate goats. Now we understand why jumping like a goat spread all over the world. This "goat" technique is the reason why old players still are the best. They just dont jump that high like young players. Their legs are not strong enough to do it.
 

grhcan99

Semi-Pro
You have just proved that they not only dont bend their legs., they dont even have contact with the ground. Maybe we revealed main reason of great crisis in tennis. When I try to lower the position of the body coaches force young players to jump before the stroke. Probably they try to imitate goats. Now we understand why jumping like a goat spread all over the world. This "goat" technique is the reason why old players still are the best. They just dont jump that high like young players. Their legs are not strong enough to do it.

Oh my this is just too hilarious!
 

Big Bagel

Professional
You have just proved that they not only dont bend their legs., they dont even have contact with the ground. Maybe we revealed main reason of great crisis in tennis. When I try to lower the position of the body coaches force young players to jump before the stroke. Probably they try to imitate goats. Now we understand why jumping like a goat spread all over the world. This "goat" technique is the reason why old players still are the best. They just dont jump that high like young players. Their legs are not strong enough to do it.
Have you ever watched Federer, Nadal, or Djokovic play? They are jumping, and their legs are massive. And you kinda need to bend your legs in order to jump. And the jump is part of the stroke, it's not like a volleyball serve where the jump and swing are completely separate motions. The jump forces players to use their legs more than you ever could if you leave them on the ground.
 

Gregory Diamond

Professional
Have you ever watched Federer, Nadal, or Djokovic play? They are jumping, and their legs are massive. And you kinda need to bend your legs in order to jump. And the jump is part of the stroke, it's not like a volleyball serve where the jump and swing are completely separate motions. The jump forces players to use their legs more than you ever could if you leave them on the ground.
I bend my legs to be more stable . Not to jump.
 

Big Bagel

Professional
I bend my legs to be more stable . Not to jump.
Again with your stability. Most people don't have an issue with stability the way you seem to. Besides, the ball must not feel your whole body if you aren't using your legs to drive into the ball and are only using them for stability; the ball must only be feeling your upper body on your forehand, compared to the entire body with a "modern" "goat-jumping" one-handed forehand.
 

Gregory Diamond

Professional
Again with your stability. Most people don't have an issue with stability the way you seem to. Besides, the ball must not feel your whole body if you aren't using your legs to drive into the ball and are only using them for stability; the ball must only be feeling your upper body on your forehand, compared to the entire body with a "modern" "goat-jumping" one-handed forehand.
You revealed the reason why two handed forehand is the future of tennis. In so called "modern" one handed "goat-jumping" forehand the ball feels only upper half of the body but in modern two handed forehand it "feels" the whole body. This great advantage cant be minimized by greater speed of the racket.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
You revealed the reason why two handed forehand is the future of tennis. In so called "modern" one handed "goat-jumping" forehand the ball feels only upper half of the body but in modern two handed forehand it "feels" the whole body. This great advantage cant be minimized by greater speed of the racket.
The ball is an inanimate object. It has no feelings.
 
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