Was Nadal unlucky to have a precociously early grass prime/peak?

[RS]

Don't attack NoleFam for that though please he is a good guy on the forum.

 

[jl809]

Don't attack NoleFam for that though please he is a good guy on the forum.

Oh for sure, fwiw NoleFam if you’re reading this I don’t include you in the ******** category at all (when I make reference to such people)

 

[RS]

Even on a post 2016 scale that's too high for 2022 lol.

I just remember Djokovic returning very well and improving as the match went on even though he did struggle in parts.

Is it that bad a take?

 

[GabeT]

5 stages of grief: Novak GOAT edition

Denial: Novak will never even come close to winning as many slams as Fedal
Anger: Novak simply vultured his slams<- YOU ARE HERE
Bargaining: OK, let’s accept he won all he did but no pretty backhand
Depression: I can‘t believe Novak will end up as GOAT
Acceptance: He is the One

 

[jl809]

I just remember Djokovic returning very well and improving as the match went on even though he did struggle in parts.

Is it that bad a take?

3rd and 4th set of 2022 was great from Djokovic, albeit not really tested from a rallying perspective against a guy who was rallying like an ass. A bit like USO 17 Nadal vs Anderson, a weak opponent from the baseline, but you couldn’t have asked of more from Djokodal in terms of UEs and winners

it’s just that the first set he sucked, and he was still not on it during the second either. So no way does it finish above 18.

 

[jl809]

Damn this thread got really derailed lol

 

[abmk]

Djokovic played better in 2022 final than he played in the 2018 SF. Disagree.

disagree. Nick made him look better than he was.
Plus what he said ->

3rd and 4th set of 2022 was great from Djokovic, albeit not really tested from a rallying perspective against a guy who was rallying like an ass. A bit like USO 17 Nadal vs Anderson, a weak opponent from the baseline, but you couldn’t have asked of more from him in terms of UEs and winners

it’s just that the first set he sucked, and he was still not on it during the second either. So no way does it finish above 18.

now to the other point.

Nadal was #1 and had won 3 out of 5 Slams, and Djokovic was ranked like #22 and hadn't even won a 250 title in over a year. You can't be serious but I'm sure you are.

nadal hadn't made the QF of Wimbledon for 6 long years (2012-17) including losing to 100+ ranked players many times.

djoko was slowly getting back to form in Rome/RG 18, nearly there by Queens. He was seeded #12.

Your own comment on Djokovic in Queens 18:

Based on the way he's played this week he should be pretty confident. He is just resorted to letting Cilic take too big of hits and pushing him back. He needs to force his game onto Cilic. Cilic is really good off the ground so far today though.

I repeat, I had Djoko as 3rd fav for Wim 18 after Queens 18 (after fed/cilic).
At worst you can have him as 4th fav after Nadal (but not by much)

 

[RS]

abmk rating for Djokovic 22 final?

 

[RS]

3rd and 4th set of 2022 was great from Djokovic, albeit not really tested from a rallying perspective against a guy who was rallying like an ass. A bit like USO 17 Nadal vs Anderson, a weak opponent from the baseline, but you couldn’t have asked of more from Djokodal in terms of UEs and winners

it’s just that the first set he sucked, and he was still not on it during the second either. So no way does it finish above 18.

So what would you rate it as?

 

[jl809]

So what would you rate it as?

Oh god I’d have to go back and check. I rated every single big 3 final performance ages ago. My inkling is an 8 though, with 18 SF as 8.5-8.75

 

[abmk]

(I also remember Nadal coming out and the 1st set looking like the last 2 years hadn’t happened as he looked scared and flat, and Djokovic kicked him round the court. Things only took off in set 2)

I think it had to do with the indoor conditions and Djokovic playing flawlessly in the 1st set.
Nadal only adjusted and fought back from 2nd set onwards.

 

[NoleFam]

There is is, knew it

You knew what? He did imo. Djokovic won 34% of return points against a Nick serving over 70%, one of the greatest serves in the game. Better off the ground and better at net in the match. The serve in 2018 was better but I'd go with 2022 overall.

 

[TMF]

Sorry, no, it IS an opinion that Fed played better, one that is based on you defining playing better as having better stats. you are free to define what makes a “better’ player however you see fit, just don’t pretend this is some universally accepted definition when it’s not.

Right, but forming an opinions is influenced by facts/data and actually watching the match live. Federer was the better player, but Djoko fans opinion is base on feeling. Big difference.

I prefer another, much simpler definition. I don’t pretend that you agree with it. But I don’t share your definition.

Simple is like judging the book by it's cover. One should not form an opinion on someone or something based purely on what is seen on the surface, because after taking a deeper look, the person or thing may be very different than what was expected.

 

[RS]

Damn this thread got really derailed lol

It was only going to end one way after the first page......

 

[RS]

5 stages of grief: Novak GOAT edition

Denial: Novak will never even come close to winning as many slams as Fedal
Anger: Novak simply vultured his slams<- YOU ARE HERE
Bargaining: OK, let’s accept he won all he did but no pretty backhand
Depression: I can‘t believe Novak will end up as GOAT
Acceptance: He is the One

Can't be good for our well being. Can't believe what we didn't achieve bothers us this much.

 

[Hitman]

5 stages of grief: Novak GOAT edition

Denial: Novak will never even come close to winning as many slams as Fedal
Anger: Novak simply vultured his slams<- YOU ARE HERE
Bargaining: OK, let’s accept he won all he did but no pretty backhand
Depression: I can‘t believe Novak will end up as GOAT
Acceptance: He is the One

Seems about right.

 

[abmk]

Lets also pull up some stuff from Wim 18 semi thread, @NoleFam

So many Nole fans doubting what he is capable of in here. I'm really superstitious so I don't vote in polls like this and make predictions but you may be surprised Friday. Nadal had the 5 hour match and Djokovic has found his gears again, which can make for a compelling result. That's all I will say for now.

One interesting stat today is that Del Potro, who is a rather poor returner, won 30% of return points against Nadal today. Kei who is a much better returner and who killed Djokovic's 2nd serve only won 30% of return points against Djokovic. That could be a key Friday.

 

[GabeT]

Right, but forming an opinions is influenced by facts/data and actually watching the match live. Federer was the better player, but Djoko fans opinion is base on feeling. Big difference.



Simple is like judging the book by it's cover. One should not form an opinion on someone or something based purely on what is seen on the surface, because after taking a deeper look, the person or thing may be very different than what was expected.

Lol

 

[NoleFam]

Lets also pull up some stuff from Wim 18 semi thread, @NoleFam

This says that I thought Djokovic was playing better which he was, and could pull the upset which he did. Nowhere does that say I thought he was playing as well as he was capable of. This just means I felt Djokovic being the better grasscourt player with the better serve, which I thought then and still do, could win him the match.

 

[NatF]

I didn't say he was levels above him. I said there are levels to the game of tennis, especially grasscourt tennis. Djokovic in 2018 beat Nadal mainly with his serve and his guile. He didn't even return that great, for his standards, and wasn't firing like he does at his best from the baseline. Meaning, Djokovic had more levels that he didn't even have that day probably because he was low on confidence and was struggling to reach his top level again. Nadal played about as well of a match he could play at thst point in time and still didn't get the win. So it's not a mystery why Djokovic has 7 and he has 2. Djokovic is one of the best Wimbledon players of all time, never losing in the 1st round and only once losing in the 2nd round. Even Sampras and Federer don't have those bragging rights who lost in the 1st round multiple times. The record at Wimbledon says it all.

With that in mind I guess you'd have to agree Fed is better at 3/4 slams

 

[NoleFam]

With that in mind I guess you'd have to agree Fed is better at 3/4 slams

There's a typo there. I think you meant 2/4.

 

[abmk]

This says that I thought Djokovic was playing better which he was, and could pull the upset which he did. Nowhere does that say I thought he was playing as well as he was capable of. This just means I felt Djokovic being the better grasscourt player with the better serve, which I thought then and still do, could win him the match.

yes and this is what I wrote.

no, that was the best Djokovic could play on grass in 18.
Djokovic was clearly worse on grass/Wimbledon in 19/21/22 compared to 18.
the mythical better Djokovic on grass you are looking for in 18 doesn't exist.

Edit: funny how Djokovic's confidence is talked about, but not that Nadal's confidence given he hadn't made QF at Wim from 12-17 or that Nadal had a 5-set war vs delpo the round before while djoko won his QF vs a significantly easier opponent in Nishi much easier.
After Queens 18, Djoko was 3rd fav for me in Wim 18 after Fed&Cilic.

Edit:
the capable part you are looking at is from 11-16 lens.
My point was that was the best 18 Djokovic was capable of on grass.

Nadal was #1 and had won 3 out of 5 Slams, and Djokovic was ranked like #22 and hadn't even won a 250 title in over a year. You can't be serious but I'm sure you are.

I also mentioned your posts from Queens 18 where you yourself pointed out Djoko getting back to form.
So what part of my post was not serious?

 

[NoleFam]

yes and this is what I wrote.




Edit:
the capable part you are looking at is from 11-16 lens.
My point was that was the best 18 Djokovic was capable of on grass.



I also mentioned your posts from Queens 18 where you yourself pointed out Djoko getting back to form.
So what part of my post was not serious?

Getting back to form doesn't mean he was at his confident best, plus being confident against Cilic, someone he had only once lost to, is totally different than being confident against the #1 player who had won 3/5 Slams coming into the match, who happened to be Nadal.

 

[abmk]

Getting back to form doesn't mean he was at his confident best, plus being confident against Cilic, someone he had only once lost to, is totally different than being confident against the #1 player who had won 3/5 Slams coming into the match, who happened to be Nadal.

and my comment was this:

Edit: funny how Djokovic's confidence is talked about, but not that Nadal's confidence given he hadn't made QF at Wim from 12-17 or that Nadal had a 5-set war vs delpo the round before while djoko won his QF vs a significantly easier opponent in Nishi much easier.
After Queens 18, Djoko was 3rd fav for me in Wim 18 after Fed&Cilic.

I didn't say Novak was 100% confident, but neither was Nadal given he hadn't made QF of Wim for 6 years
and I mentioned the 5-setter here vs Delpo; which you yourself mentioned in the 2018 Wim thread.

(Edit: throw in match being played under the roof, which tilted it atleast somewhat against Nadal)

Also Novak started the 1st set vs Nadal on a roll, playing a perfect set and that set was more dominant than 6-4 scoreline indicates, with Djokovic winning nearly twice the return points%.

So what's the "not serious" part again?

 

[TMF]

Lol

You have lost the argument

 

[NoleFam]

and my comment was this:



I didn't say Novak was 100% confident, but neither was Nadal given he hadn't made QF of Wim for 6 years
and I mentioned the 5-setter here vs Delpo; which you yourself mentioned in the 2018 Wim thread.

(Edit: throw in match being played under the roof, which tilted it atleast somewhat against Nadal)

Also Novak started the 1st set vs Nadal on a roll, playing a perfect set and that set was more dominant than 6-4 scoreline indicates, with Djokovic winning nearly twice the return points%.

So what's the "not serious" part again?

I don't even know why are going down this path tbh. A guy who is back to his best winning Slams has more belief in his abilities than someone in the worst point of their career, outside of the top 20, hasn't won a title in so long, coming into the match with a 6-6 record for the year, and has so many doubts in themselves and in their game. It's not even worth entertaining this and commenting on it any further,

 

[abmk]

I don't even know why are going down this path tbh. A guy who is back to his best winning Slams has more belief in his abilities than someone in the worst point of their career, outside of the top 20, hasn't won a title in so long, coming into the match with a 6-6 record for the year, and has so many doubts in themselves and in their game. It's not even worth entertaining this and commenting on it any further,

I wasn't debating with you about who had more or less confidence specifically. I'm saying Nadal had his own issues confidence wise as well (no Wimbledon QF for 6 years, 5 setter vs delpo leading to some tiredness) - which you neglected to mention. those weren't insignificant factors.

Edit: djoko's record in 18 wasn't 6-6 coming into Wim. not sure what you mean.

 

[jl809]

You knew what? He did imo. Djokovic won 34% of return points against a Nick serving over 70%, one of the greatest serves in the game. Better off the ground and better at net in the match. The serve in 2018 was better but I'd go with 2022 overall.

All this shows is that he was returning very well and once the return was in play, was up against a guy who couldn’t rally that well. Nadal in 18 had a weaker serve but was leagues better than Nick 22 from the baseline, particularly on the BH, which was one of Nadal’s best ever displays vs Djokovic. Ofc Djoker is going to look worse from the baseline when he’s getting missiles thrown at him off both wings

 

[NatF]

There's a typo there. I think you meant 2/4.

3/4

FO 2011/USO 2011 and Windows 2012

 

[jl809]

(Edit: throw in match being played under the roof, which tilted it atleast somewhat against Nadal)

According to Djokovic fans on this site, this is actually a case of Schrodinger’s Nadal - a Nadal who is both crap indoors and therefore not an ATG, but also fine indoors so unaffected by roofs during matches like the 18 SF

 

[TripleATeam]

No. He's unlucky that the prime he had ended. Nothing states a player needs to necessarily be good for 7 years on grass.

 

[The_Order]

If Novak won the important points then he was the better player

Believe what you want...

The fact is, Fed was playing better than him throughout, Djok just hung in there and in the TBs in particular he played his best tennis.

Of course, ********* like you can't bear to admit that because it damages your egos for some reason...

Need to have Djok put on that same pedastool as Pete and Fed at Wim so you can sleep well citizen's of the Earth's mightiest heavyweight champ Rambo etc...

 

[RS]

Problem is TB's are huge.

I still have a hard time calling Fed the better player . I could see equal though.

 

[GabeT]

Believe what you want...

The fact is, Fed was playing better than him throughout, Djok just hung in there and in the TBs in particular he played his best tennis.

Of course, ********* like you can't bear to admit that because it damages your egos for some reason...

Need to have Djok put on that same pedastool as Pete and Fed at Wim so you can sleep well citizen's of the Earth's mightiest heavyweight champ Rambo etc...

Well, if you believe what you want I guess I’ll do the same

 

[The_Order]

Well, if you believe what you want I guess I’ll do the same

Exactly!

You believe in your little fantasy and I'll believe in reality. Cool, now we can move on.

 

[GabeT]

Exactly!

You believe in your little fantasy and I'll believe in reality. Cool, now we can move on.

Lol

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

Nadal’s IRL grass career was a weird thing where he entered his prime aged 20 and left it aged 25. This was followed by 5 years of the kind of form you’d expect from a newcomer to the surface, but in his mid-late 20s, while he was still in his clay/HC prime.

If his career had followed a more “traditional” trajectory - I.e. he’d been relatively **** / meh on grass from 05-09 (like Djokovic and kinda Murray) instead, then become good in his early/mid 20s - would his career on grass be looked upon more favourably?

He probably wouldn’t have those long “last time beating..” records which the ********* frequently quote, and wouldn’t have had to face prime/peak Fed in 3 Wimbledon finals, which neither Djoker or Murray ever had to do IRL too.

So was Grassdal unlucky to be a child star who burned out early, like the Amanda Bynes of grass tennis?

Definitely. He ran into prime Roger when in his own grass prime and peak, unlike Djokovic who got to vulture on post prime Roger in the serb's own grass prime.

 

[The_Order]

Lol

You have lost the argument

 

[GabeT]

You have lost the argument

 

[GabeT]

You have lost the argument