Weird slice serve bounce on clay

[johnmccabe]

My slice serve bend to the left after bounce on hard courts. Seen the curve and have that on videos. But playing on green clay today, my slice serves bounced consistently to the right like kick. What can possibly cause that? A coach saw it and agreed it was weird. I was not hitting any top slice at 12 o'clock, not hard slice, but those spinny slice at 1:30.

Anyone seen that before and have an explanation?

 

[BlueB]

Gyro spin?

 

[johnmccabe]

Gyro spin?

That's what it takes to create the kick serve bounce? Have no idea how I could possibly create it with slice serve motion

 

[BlueB]

I don't quite know. Guessing that head path and angle are not in tune with each other, for what you are expecting to produce.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Playing in a different hemisphere?

 

[Dragy]

I've had such an effect on my serves on clay, but I do have slightly diagonal spin on most of them. It may also happen on softer, deeper clay, as bounce creates a "crater" and sidespin kind of interacts against the sidewall of that. It may happen more close to the sideline.

But I don't expect this to be a thing on well-prepared clay court, so still a bit of mystery for me.

It's also possible if your slice is really slow and arc-y, that you hit under the ball a bit imparting gyrospin. Like an underhand serve which bounces to the right. Pete from Crunch Time Coaching does use a tad of "under" spin on his wicked lefty slice serves, to my eye. And it may behave differently on different surfaces.

 

[travlerajm]

Surfaces that grab the ball better will make the ball kick more in the direction of the spin axis. With less sliding.

Your spin axis is probably around 8-to-2 on the clock face across the back of the ball. Same spin can bounce left, straight, or right depending on surface friction. Going more toward 7:30-to-1:30 will exaggerate the rightward kick.

 

[Slicehand]

Oponent probably spitted on the ball to trick you, it makes it wet, heavy, and with unpredictable trajectories

 

[johnmccabe]

Oponent probably spitted on the ball to trick you, it makes it wet, heavy, and with unpredictable trajectories

the clay was a little wet from heavy rain the day before

 

[nyta2]

Surfaces that grab the ball better will make the ball kick more in the direction of the spin axis. With less sliding.

Your spin axis is probably around 8-to-2 on the clock face across the back of the ball. Same spin can bounce left, straight, or right depending on surface friction. Going more toward 7:30-to-1:30 will exaggerate the rightward kick.

+1
when i hit my "slice" serve, it's actually more of a topSlice serve... on fast "slick" surfaces it will curve right2left, and "skid" to my left (usually staying low), but when i play on very gritty surfaces, it becomes a "fast kick" (typically faster, with lower clearance, and not as much "kick" (back to my right), but definitely a pronounced kick... and doesn't bounce as high. in my mind, if wanted it to "skid" on a gritty surface, i have to exaggerate more 8-2... but more normal topslice is closer to 7-1

but compared to my normal kicker (where contact is more above/left of my head), which is slower, loopier, more of a pronounced kick, and bounces much higher.

 

[travlerajm]

+1
when i hit my "slice" serve, it's actually more of a topSlice serve... on fast "slick" surfaces it will curve right2left, and "skid" to my left (usually staying low), but when i play on very gritty surfaces, it becomes a "fast kick" (typically faster, with lower clearance, and not as much "kick" (back to my right), but definitely a pronounced kick... and doesn't bounce as high. in my mind, if wanted it to "skid" on a gritty surface, i have to exaggerate more 8-2... but more normal topslice is closer to 7-1

but compared to my normal kicker (where contact is more above/left of my head), which is slower, loopier, more of a pronounced kick, and bounces much higher.

Actually… people think they are hitting 7 to 1, but no one actually does. The human anatomy doesn’t let you arch far enough back to do that unless your contact point is too low.

A “slice” is about 8:30–to-2:30.
A “top-slice” is about 8:15-to-2:15.
A “topspin” serve is about 8-to-2 (bounces straight).
A “twist” serve is about 7:30-to-1:30, as shown in a paper by Rod Cross where he analyzed atp kick serves.

 

[johnmccabe]

Actually… people think they are hitting 7 to 1, but no one actually does. The human anatomy doesn’t let you arch far enough back to do that unless your contact point is too low.

A “slice” is about 8:30–to-2:30.
A “top-slice” is about 8:15-to-2:15.
A “topspin” serve is about 8-to-2 (bounces straight).
A “twist” serve is about 7:30-to-1:30, as shown in a paper by Rod Cross where he analyzed atp kick serves.

What I never understand is where the string bed first contact the ball. When you say swing 8 to 2, does the string first touch the ball on the 8:00 side of the ball or the 2:00 side of the ball?

 

[nyta2]

Actually… people think they are hitting 7 to 1, but no one actually does. The human anatomy doesn’t let you arch far enough back to do that unless your contact point is too low.

A “slice” is about 8:30–to-2:30.
A “top-slice” is about 8:15-to-2:15.
A “topspin” serve is about 8-to-2 (bounces straight).
A “twist” serve is about 7:30-to-1:30, as shown in a paper by Rod Cross where he analyzed atp kick serves.

you sure you got the minutes right? just 30s off will result in service meltdown ;p

 

[Dragy]

What I never understand is where the string bed first contact the ball. When you say swing 8 to 2, does the string first touch the ball on the 8:00 side of the ball or the 2:00 side of the ball?

For serve it’s mostly “back of the ball”. Some kick serves, particularly with open pattern racquets, may have stringbed tilted closed, so contact is higher on the ball sphere.

Those clock references show swing direction.

 

[travlerajm]

What I never understand is where the string bed first contact the ball. When you say swing 8 to 2, does the string first touch the ball on the 8:00 side of the ball or the 2:00 side of the ball?

It touches a small spot on the back of the ball. It touches the 8 side of that spot first, then exits the contact on the 2 side.

 

[travlerajm]

For serve it’s mostly “back of the ball”. Some kick serves, particularly with open pattern racquets, may have stringbed tilted closed, so contact is higher on the ball sphere.

Those clock references show swing direction.

Yes. The clock face might be slightly tilted. Tilted downward if you are a big server dealing power kicks, or tilted upward if you are serving high blooping kicks.

 

[onehandbh]

The clock references may not work for younger kids who have only seen digital clocks that only display integers.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

That's what it takes to create the kick serve bounce? Have no idea how I could possibly create it with slice serve motion

Because of our anatomy and the manner in which we swing a racket, a minute amount of gyro spin (spiral spin) will result when we impart sidespin to the ball. In most cases, this spiral spin component is so small, we might not notice the effect.

One possibility is that you might be imparting a little bit more spiral spin than normal when you hitting your "slice" serve. The nature of the clay interaction might enhance the effect of this type of spin.


Another possibility is that your spin rate is very high and the ball might acquire significant spiral spin, prior to the bounce, as the ball flies thru the air. This can occur with a fast sidespin (usually combined with topspin or underspin). According to @travlerajm (I think), gravity will act of this very fast spin to produce (additional) spiral spin as the ball flies thru the air

 

[travlerajm]

Because of our anatomy and the manner in which we swing a racket, a minute amount of gyro spin (spiral spin) will result when we impart sidespin to the ball. In most cases, this spiral spin component is so small, we might not notice the effect.

One possibility is that you might be imparting a little bit more spiral spin than normal when you hitting your "slice" serve. The nature of the clay interaction might enhance the effect of this type of spin.


Another possibility is that your spin rate is very high and the ball might acquire significant spiral spin, prior to the bounce, as the ball flies thru the air. This can occur with a fast sidespin (usually combined with topspin or underspin). According to @travlerajm (I think), gravity will act of this very fast spin to produce (additional) spiral spin as the ball flies thru the air

The spiral spin builds up because gravity changes the ball’s direction of travel. The slower the serve, the more spiral spin st the bounce. This causes the angle between the spin axis and the direction of travel to change. But what causes the kick is the ball gripping the ground while spinning.