borgnadal123
New User
and for those who want to be funny ill tell you right now not to tell me about the animal.
What is a GOAT
- Thread starter borgnadal123
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borgnadal123
New User
thanks alot!
pc1
G.O.A.T.
Whoever you think is qualified to be the Greatest of all time in anything?
You could speak to a million people about that in tennis and come up with a million answers.
If you ask me what is a GOAT in tennis I would say that you can look at it in several ways. You can try to establish who has accomplished the most in tennis history over a career. You can try to figure out who has played at the highest level ever over a period of time, five years, ten years, whatever. You can even decide who has played at the highest level for one match. Some may even decide to pick the GOAT in tennis based on their stroking style.
People tend naturally to pick the recent best players as the GOAT. That's natural because they are current in front of everyone to view. It may be true that they are the GOAT or maybe not.
Take the case of Steffi Graf. She's super player with all the qualifications in every way to be GOAT. Yet some will argue that Monica Seles was number one during some of Graf's peak years and therefore Seles must have been greater than Graf. Who knows but it sure causes a lot of heated debates on this website.
I think people have to take an objective look at the greats and their records and see if they qualify for GOAT in tennis. You can't go around saying Jim Courier is the GOAT even though he was a terrific player. His record doesn't warrant it.
You have to decide on what is the criteria for GOAT. It's not easy and there is no sure 100% answer.
borgnadal123
New User
borgnadal123
New User
no problem
Your welcome...
Tina
Banned
Fee
Legend
You could have used the forum search tool and found your answer, it's been asked many times before.
borg number one
Legend
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
The thing that peeves me is the argument that player X from year A would automatically lose to player Y from year B--because there is no stopping the improvement of everything in tennis.
By this logic, the 500th ranked player in 20 years will beat Federer.
Also there is the notion that, if we could magically time-transport player X to compete in a match against present player Y, then player Y would crush player X--and that this PROVES that player Y is a much better player overall.
By this logic, (unless Fed retires right after winning a tournament) the last player to beat Fed will be a better overall player.
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Joe Pike
Banned
pc1
G.O.A.T.
I agree with you. Of course that logic is incorrect. But many do use that argument.
I've applied this logic to measurable information like speed. We all know by radar guns that a few pitchers today can throw in baseball in the mid 90 mph range to 100 mph. Applying that same logic to pitchers in the past, you would think the pitcher in the past would have problems breaking 80 mph. Yet the greatest strikeout pitcher ever is Nolan Ryan, a pitcher who broke in in the 1960's. He clearly threw regularly over 100 mph in his prime and even at age 46 in the early 1990's, his last pitcher was timed at 98 miles per hour.
Ryan wasn't the only hard throwing pitchers in those days. Koufax, Seaver, Gibson, Drysdale and others were able to throw at very high velocities.
Of course top player of the past can do well today in most sports.
Using the same logic in tennis, we all know the top WOMEN players can serve in the high 120 mile per hour range and hit the heck out of the ball with today's rackets. Why shouldn't a Bill Tilden from the 1920's, a great phyical specimen and was about 6'2" tall be able to serve as well? Most likely far far more powerfully if he wanted too. Are you going to tell me Bill Tilden wasn't far more talented than Serena Williams? Of course he was and he was a student of the game. Always trying to learn. He would adapt easily to learning the techniques today if he felt they were superior to the past.
Pancho Gonzalez was over 6'3" tall. He was fast and very strong and tough as nails. Vic Braden was convinced he could serve in the 140 mph range today with very little effort. Are you going to tell me that this great athlete would not be better than for example an Andy Roddick? At worst the guy is going to serve around the same level as Roddick, maybe a bit worst, maybe a bit better but he could move, was super agile and could do things athletically that Roddick couldn't do.
John Elway in football is considered to this day by some to be the greatest player in football history. Mel Kiper, the pro football talent evaluator thinks so and I believe he still thinks Elway is the most talented player ever. Using this logic, Elway couldn't play Pro Football today.
Incidentally I do believe a young 25 year old Federer would most likely be great if he was transported to the future 20 years from now.
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Falloutjr
Banned
The domestic goat (Capra aegagrus hircus) is a subspecies of goat domesticated from the wild goat of southwest Asia and Eastern Europe. The goat is a member of the Bovidae family and is closely related to the sheep as both are in the goat-antelope subfamily Caprinae. There are over three hundred distinct breeds of goat.[1]
Goats are one of the oldest domesticated species. Goats have been used for their milk, meat, hair, and skins over much of the world.[2] In the twentieth century they also gained in popularity as pets.[3]
Female goats are referred to as does or nannies, intact males as bucks or billies; their offspring are kids. Note that many goat breeders prefer the terms "buck" and "doe" to "billy" and "nanny". Castrated males are wethers. Goat meat from younger animals is called kid or cabrito, and from older animals is sometimes called chevon, or in some areas “mutton”.
Goats are one of the oldest domesticated species. Goats have been used for their milk, meat, hair, and skins over much of the world.[2] In the twentieth century they also gained in popularity as pets.[3]
Female goats are referred to as does or nannies, intact males as bucks or billies; their offspring are kids. Note that many goat breeders prefer the terms "buck" and "doe" to "billy" and "nanny". Castrated males are wethers. Goat meat from younger animals is called kid or cabrito, and from older animals is sometimes called chevon, or in some areas “mutton”.
Tina
Banned
The domestic goat (Capra aegagrus hircus) is a subspecies of goat domesticated from the wild goat of southwest Asia and Eastern Europe. The goat is a member of the Bovidae family and is closely related to the sheep as both are in the goat-antelope subfamily Caprinae. There are over three hundred distinct breeds of goat.[1]
Goats are one of the oldest domesticated species. Goats have been used for their milk, meat, hair, and skins over much of the world.[2] In the twentieth century they also gained in popularity as pets.[3]
Female goats are referred to as does or nannies, intact males as bucks or billies; their offspring are kids. Note that many goat breeders prefer the terms "buck" and "doe" to "billy" and "nanny". Castrated males are wethers. Goat meat from younger animals is called kid or cabrito, and from older animals is sometimes called chevon, or in some areas “mutton”.
You bet- a baby goat
GetBetterer
Hall of Fame
theace21:
^ That.
However, a lot of people say Roger Federer is a GOAT. Unfortunately, they're wrong. A GOAT is Federer.
^ That.
However, a lot of people say Roger Federer is a GOAT. Unfortunately, they're wrong. A GOAT is Federer.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Apparently, Bob Feller threw the 2nd fastest pitch ever measured in 1946.
PS: Pancho's serve with a wood racquet was better than Roddicks with his nuclear weapon racquet. Pancho could hit up to 120 mph, got nearly 75% of his first serves in, and he could paint the lines. As a player, Roddick isn't even close to Pancho in any respect.
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darthpwner
Banned
Federer, Laver, Sampras, and Borg. All GOAT candidates.
Really? Don't you think that's shortchanging Roddick just a little bit? The guy has one of the all-time great serves. Federer thinks that Roddick has the best first and second serves in the game today, even better than Karlovic. Personally, I don't agree that he's better than Karlovic in this respect, but it's just an indication of the kind of esteem this guy's serve is held in. Roddick's serve with modern racquets is better than Pancho's with wood. It's definitely reasonable to think Pancho's serve, relative to the technology he had available, is better than Roddick's, but it's going too far to say it was better regardless of the technology.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
Is there an intrinsic contradiction here?
pc1
G.O.A.T.
It has been proven that you can serve almost as hard with a wood racket compared to today's rackets. Now can you get as much spin and movement on the serves? I know I get more spin with today's rackets. I'm sure Gonzalez would get more action on his serve with today's rackets but it doesn't mean his serve wasn't super effective with wood. Could he get the speed and action on his serve with wood to be very effective today?
We don't have records of how high a percentage Gonzalez served at and how effective his serve was. I do believe it may be the best serve ever but can his serve with a wood racket compare?
Too bad we can't have him serve with a wood racket and then magically give him the current rackets to see how effectively he can hold serve comparing apples with apples. Yes I know Gonzalez is not alive anymore.
It's also too bad we don't have many full Gonzalez matches so we can chart the serve percentage and how often he held serve. I'm sure with the computer analysis we have today we can find a reasonable estimate of the service speeds at the time with wood rackets.
We don't have records of how high a percentage Gonzalez served at and how effective his serve was. I do believe it may be the best serve ever but can his serve with a wood racket compare?
Too bad we can't have him serve with a wood racket and then magically give him the current rackets to see how effectively he can hold serve comparing apples with apples. Yes I know Gonzalez is not alive anymore.
It's also too bad we don't have many full Gonzalez matches so we can chart the serve percentage and how often he held serve. I'm sure with the computer analysis we have today we can find a reasonable estimate of the service speeds at the time with wood rackets.
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borg number one
Legend
PC1, I was thinking the same thing. It's not just top speed. It's spin plus speed, as well as repeatability. In the wood days, I think players were forced to "pick their spots" and then hit a really hard serve (their top speed serve) occasionally. It was more difficult with wood frames to keep hitting that really hard serve over and over again. Gonzalez would be simply electric on serve today with a great "serve-friendly" frame. The adjustment for him would then be facing the return games/passing shots of opponents, who are also armed with these modern frames.
pc1
G.O.A.T.
It makes you wonder if Gonzalez can serve and volley effective today or would he adjust? It would seem to me that if his serve was causing weak returns that he still could serve and volley effectively. I know Sampras made the comment that he, if he was in his prime would continue to serve and volley. I know it was an exhibition but Sampras looked good serving and volleying against Federer a couple of years ago.
In watching some of the matches like the Isner-Mahut match and some of the Berdych matches, I was watching the returns to see if the player tried to serve and volley whether the return would be fairly easy to volley. In my opinion a lot of them could have been easy volley winners if the players were at the net but they usually decided to let it bounce and hit a powerful drive.
It does make you wonder, considering how easily many players hold serve today by controlling the third shot after the first strike powerful serve if serve and volleying is still viable today. It's not just grass tournaments, I've noticed that the players could put away returns on many hard court tournaments too.
Now the flip side is if the returner knew the player was serve and volleying, could the returner drive the ball back well enough to cause problems for the serve and volleyer? Could the server vary his serves well enough on the other end to be able to continue to serve and volley?
It seems to me that guys like Isner, Karlovic, Berdych and many others certain have the serves to be able to serve and volley effective.
Again, I agree with that statement on Gonzalez's serve. Gonzalez said that if he was down love-40, that he felt he was even.
Nadal, with his wide lefty serve in the ad court would possibly be effective in serving and volleying, possibly Federer too, considering his strong serve.
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The-Champ
Legend
theace21:
^ That.
However, a lot of people say Roger Federer is a GOAT. Unfortunately, they're wrong. A GOAT is Federer.
Many people think federer looks like a goat too.
GetBetterer
Hall of Fame
The-Champ:
You make me lol.
You make me lol.
