StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
As if that ever mattered. There are so many examples when a player was having a strong run, only to lose to a big 3 player who looked worse in the early rounds.
When Djokovic beats Carlos, the hype will officially end
- Thread starter Sampras-Bruguera 1993
- Start date
ibbi
G.O.A.T.
I'll tell you what, nobody was stupid enough to make this argument in 2008 when, on a surface he absolutely hated playing on, a washed-up Marat Safin booted the 21-year-old reigning Australian Open champion out of Wimbledon, and so nobody should be stupid enough to make the argument in 2023 if the current defending champion of 2 slams and 2-time champion of this one beats the 20-year-old reigning US Open champion who has never even been past the QF here.
aldeayeah
G.O.A.T.
stop making so much sense or we'll revoke your TTW license
you're supposed to be making incendiary, myopic, knee-jerk takes
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Well, Alcaraz is a bit of a standout though, he has won a slam, multiple masters, has been world number one multiple times, won the first five big finals he has played in, only player to beat Djokodal back to back on clay. He is an ATG in the making, that much is clear, and his peak level is highest right now of all of them that currently play. Carlos is made for big matches.
Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
Djoko won 5 of his last 7 slams. I.e. he is 36, but he's not close to done just yet.
That success is partially thanks to the career inflation era and partially to the great age shift. Djoko is a very young 36 year old and has taken extremely good care of his body.
Alcaraz only just turned 20 and is (hopefully) not peak yet.
Both can lose to one another without "shame" .
And it's about freaking time we (hopefully) get to see this match in a slam
That success is partially thanks to the career inflation era and partially to the great age shift. Djoko is a very young 36 year old and has taken extremely good care of his body.
Alcaraz only just turned 20 and is (hopefully) not peak yet.
Both can lose to one another without "shame" .
And it's about freaking time we (hopefully) get to see this match in a slam
Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
Because Sinner
Exactly. Nadu*l, fed*rror, alcarrash?
Nadal - GOAT
Hall of Fame
If Novak beats Alcaraz then yes the hype should end. Alcaraz has no excuses to losing here. It's not Wimb were Novak can serve his way through to tiebreaks and clutch it out.
Alcaraz has been playing better for the entire clay season and he should win comfortably.
Really hope the match happens.
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
You would be wise to learn the difference between if and when. For sure if Carlos gets beaten by Djokovic, assuming that both of them are through to the semi final, the Carlos hype train is going to be at least temporarily derailed.
I'm impressed with Zv. I did not think he would perform this well. Rune is a question mark - fitness.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Alcaraz has to win here for the hype to be validated. Have to disagree with you on this one.
For Djokovic, it wouldn't be a shame. But Carlos's future dominance would certainly be put into question if he lost.
D
Deleted member 779124
Guest
It's a 50-50 IMHO
RaulRamirez
Legend
Per the end of "The Big 3", how do you define that?
Technically, it ended with Roger's retirement, and we don't know what Rafa's future holds.
But if that doesn't constitute the end, let's have one season when non-Big3 players win three or more slams before declaring its end.
As for their probable matchup, first of all, Khach and Tsit will not be easy matches -- especially if they're looking ahead.
And while someone from the bottom of the draw can take RG, there is something special about the best two players meeting in the SF of a slam. I wish it were the final, but...
Technically, it ended with Roger's retirement, and we don't know what Rafa's future holds.
But if that doesn't constitute the end, let's have one season when non-Big3 players win three or more slams before declaring its end.
As for their probable matchup, first of all, Khach and Tsit will not be easy matches -- especially if they're looking ahead.
And while someone from the bottom of the draw can take RG, there is something special about the best two players meeting in the SF of a slam. I wish it were the final, but...
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Z is doing well, no question, but he should have gone 5 against Tiafoe. The consistency is still lacking, and he will need that in the final for sure.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
No one bases a GOAT tennis player on "peak status", or any random stat, hence the reason players with high winning percentages in a year e.g. McEnroe in 1984) and/or majors count still cannot be considered the GOAT.
It is unlikely Alcaraz will ever win the Grand Slam--the GOAT-crowning zenith of all tennis achievements.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
You read like someone trying to wish a status of dominance on Alcaraz when he has not earned that--especially at the majors.
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic has already cemented GOAT and Carlos deserves his hype.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
You are free to interpret it as you wish. My argument is that just because others have failed doesn't mean he will also. He is the first slam champion as a teenager since Nadal in 2005, has won all five of his big title finals, that is impressive when you look at the overall picture. Let him have his shot at Djokovic, he has stood tall against all his peers and is clearly the standout player outside of Djokovic right now.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
This is pretty much how I feel.
Krish872007
Talk Tennis Guru
My take is that if he meets and beats Novak here, and goes on to lift the title, the hype is justified.
There are a few people proclaiming him as not only the next ATG in the making, but the next GOAT-level candidate - in effect Big 3 level. For that, I agree with the posters who say he "should" be in a position to take out a 36-year old GOAT-level candidate and use that as a launching pad for further success. Each of the Big 3 had their moments dethroning previous GOAT-level candidates and ATGs
As you rightly pointed out, all the other stats are in his favour so far. Now is the time to step up for that heavyweight clash.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Or maybe it will just mean that Alcaraz is extremely overrated.
McGradey
Hall of Fame
In theory Djokovic should be bad news for Alcaraz, presuming Novak’s level is good.
He takes the ball early, like Sinner. He can hit the ball very hard off both wings, like Sinner. He has a good serve, like Si—uhh, Roger.
He’s a great returner, like Sinner. He endorses the Head Speed, like Sinner. And most importantly, he’s a fearsome champion, unlike Sinner.
He takes the ball early, like Sinner. He can hit the ball very hard off both wings, like Sinner. He has a good serve, like Si—uhh, Roger.
He’s a great returner, like Sinner. He endorses the Head Speed, like Sinner. And most importantly, he’s a fearsome champion, unlike Sinner.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Fair points.
I wouldn't go far to say he is the next coming of the GOAT, he has a long way to go before he enters that convo and we have no idea what will happen down the line. Its that looking at what he has already done, it's the hallmarks of an ATG in the making. He is the youngest world number one, he is also the youngest ever number one seed at a GS, these are things that are drawing line in the sand. Lets see how it goes, and as I have said in previous threads, lets see if they both make the semis before we get amped for it.
Krish872007
Talk Tennis Guru
Probably somewhere in between these two explanations. Highly doubt he will end up at Big 3 level but there's still some time
20 years & 1 month old now. That was the age Nadal was when he pushed Federer to a fourth set in Wimbledon 2006 final (having just beaten him at RG). Djokovic at that age was a couple of months away from winning Montreal, beating top 3 in the world back-to-back, and then making the US Open final only losing to Federer.
Krish872007
Talk Tennis Guru
Yep completely agree
And I am wary of Tsitsipas here - he's looking good for the first time since the AO, and we all saw the kind of performance Zverev put in last year to dismiss Alcaraz at the same stage.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
If he loses to Tsitsipas, it will be a worse loss than last year.
Krish872007
Talk Tennis Guru
It will be - point being that he should have learned from the mistakes of last year
Now he's the top dog and if i'm right has never previously lost to Tsits. Should be racking up the wins
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
Agree. One thing this whole thread ignores is that Alcaraz is also at an age at which he’s unlikely to be at his peak, not only Djokovic. He’s at an age for a breakthrough but not to be an established dominant player. If he were 24 and lost to a 36-year-old Djokovic that would mean more than losing at 20.
Djokovic is 36 years old, if the match goes over five hours, he will surely lose because he has no stamina compared to Alcaraz. Djokovic needs to finish the match quickly, which is impossible the way Alcaraz plays. In best case scenario Djokovic could take one set, most likely the first one and that would be it.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, and it's important to note, Federer was 25-26 years old back then, not 36.
Hawaiian grip
Professional
Surely losing against a GOAT in a GS will erase his having been youngest YE #1 ever and a slam winner already.
OP is so desperate a hater and a Sinnertard it's not even funny.
OP is so desperate a hater and a Sinnertard it's not even funny.
Hawaiian grip
Professional
Sinner can and will hit really hard off both wings when he's on his A Game, and that can trouble anyone, Alcaraz included. but he doesn't really hit anywhere as hard as Jannik does. He's extremely consistent and a human pong, but it's not his power that's gonna trouble Alcaraz and blow him out of the court -it's his extreme consistency that might. Just like he does to anybody else.
I don't see a matchup thing there, no.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Truth
Mugging is also a sin.I was looking for another word. But this counts too
Razer
Legend
Even if Alcaraz gets defeated then his hype train can temporarily be derailed but not ended, his hype will stay until someone like Rune makes him his pigeon like Federer did to Roddick.
Djoker is too old and the age difference is 16 years, he cannot stop alcaraz for long, even if he holds alcaraz for 1 more year that would still mean alcaraz is 21 and novak is 37, that point on alcaraz shall prevail.
Djoker is too old and the age difference is 16 years, he cannot stop alcaraz for long, even if he holds alcaraz for 1 more year that would still mean alcaraz is 21 and novak is 37, that point on alcaraz shall prevail.
Hawaiian grip
Professional
This is a preposterous take. It'd be a perfectly winnable match for Djokovic, who is still holding two GS to Alcaraz's one and only lost to another GOAT and clay ultimate GOAT in Nadal last year. Alcaraz is still extremely young and he's already achieved a lot. That hypothetical much has no bearing on his future.
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic isn't aging. He could play 11 hours and be fine.
TennisManiac
Hall of Fame
There's no way Novak can beat Alcaraz.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I'm not saying he won't still go on to achieve great things, but I doubt people won't question his future dominance if he fails to beat a 36 year old Djokovic on his worst surface.
Beulah Jesus
Hall of Fame
Disagree with this comment. Djokovic can beat Alcaraz even though the youngster is favored presently in a match-up.
Carlos needs to get through Tsitsipas anyway before we can start to even think about him beating Nole.
Winners or Errors
Legend
Hmmm, not confirm the ongoing inflation era? I suspect the defeat of young Carlitos would mean different things than you’re thinking to many here at TT.
That's not true, at least for me, and for many reasons:
- With the modern age shift in sports (and Djokovic generally being a freak of nature) it's totally not just a given thing that he must be less physically fit with 36 than his opponent.
- "ATG" as such doesn't matter, because we call players with 5 or 6 Slams ATGs, and the distance to GOAT candidates like Djokovic is more than a full Sampras career. Alcaraz may very well get much better than "just an ATG", but we don't know that yet.
- I would root for Djokovic anyway, because I want him to overcome the injustice of all his bans and take the lead in the Slam race.
- Why should I be bitter about Djokovic NOW after all? A few years ago I certainly didn't want him to overtake Federer, but now that he has done it, I don't care if he has 2 or 5 or even 10 more Slams in the end. The race with Federer is over anyway.
Hawaiian grip
Professional
What dominance? I'm a huge Alcaraz fan, I opened a thread here when he was 14 y.o since he's from my hometown and I had seen him train in the club. And I know he's achieved a lot but is still NOT at the point that losing to a GOAT, old though he might be, would be any kind of testament to him. He is not a multi slam winner and a player that's been dominating the tour regularly, so that's not the yardstick (yet). He's still a developing player. One that already was YE #1 and one major, but still developing nonetheless. No shame in a possible loss to Novak friggin' Djokovic.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Considering the hype around him, it would be a disappointment. And like you said, he has already been no.1, he has already won a slam, he has already won all these big titles, so he's not a kid anymore. He should be expected to beat Novak.
Topspin_80
Hall of Fame
Djokovic is toast.
Looks like he's gonna lose to Khachanov.
Looks like he's gonna lose to Khachanov.
Hawaiian grip
Professional
No one should be "expected" to beat a guy holding two GS at the moment and 22 overall. Djokovic must be respected and Alcaraz is still a nobody in comparison.
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