ImmorTAL Big 3
Semi-Pro
After Novak and Roger who are undoubtedly far ahead who do you think is the 3rd best hardcourter in OE.For me it's very debatable,margins are slim but i would say probably Lendl.
Who do you rank as the 3rd best hardcourter in Open Era?
- Thread starter ImmorTAL Big 3
- Start date
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Pete or Agassi
D
Deleted member 629564
Guest
Wrong order.
Julius Caesar
Professional
djokevic so good on hc he has less USOs than Nadal. He just is a kangaroo slam specialist and he has to thank the tournament director for that.
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
Andre is my pick.
But if we include carpet as a form of indoor HC I think Ivan Lendl has to shade it. PETE has the highest peak level. Nadal is up there with all of them on outdoor HC but hasn’t had an elite HC win in 10 years, so he needed to do more indoors to leap them.
But if we include carpet as a form of indoor HC I think Ivan Lendl has to shade it. PETE has the highest peak level. Nadal is up there with all of them on outdoor HC but hasn’t had an elite HC win in 10 years, so he needed to do more indoors to leap them.
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
My gut says Sampras, but I'm not going to vote because I don't feel confident speaking about Connors or Lendl.
Nadal_Django
Legend
Is Nadal even a Top 100 indoor hard player historically wise!? 
I mean what the hell that guy is doing in this poll is totally beyond me?
I mean what the hell that guy is doing in this poll is totally beyond me?ImmorTAL Big 3
Semi-Pro
Right order.But OK the margins are slim for me it's Novak for you Roger.The idea is they both are far ahead than the others on hard
ImmorTAL Big 3
Semi-Pro
AO 9-2,2-0 H2H
IW 5-3 3-1 H2H
Miami 6-0 4-0 H2H !!!
Canada 4-5 H2H
Cincinnati 2-1 2-0 H2H
USO 3-4 1-2 H2H
Shanghai 4-0
Paris 6-0 1-0 H2H
WTF 6-0 3-2 H2H
Indoor hard titles 17-1 !!!!!!!
Nadal haven't defeated Novak on hard for 10 years,i say the gap is enough Big
TheNachoMan
Legend
1. Novak
2. Fed
3. Dre
4. PETE
5. RAFA
2. Fed
3. Dre
4. PETE
5. RAFA
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Fed, behind PETE (1) and Andre (2)
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
Why would you include carpet? Very different surface to play on
InsuranceMan
Hall of Fame
How is it not Pete
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Agassi has an argument for being better when taken into account slow and fast hards I guess?
TheNachoMan
Legend
Agassi should’ve played AO more. He skipped it a bunch in his career.
Shows how much of a fraud Novak is, since that’s where most of his slams come from. LOL
Shows how much of a fraud Novak is, since that’s where most of his slams come from. LOL
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Yeah, seems pretty obvious to me but surprised to see so many posters putting Agassi above him. That's something I've never seen before on TTW.
I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
Fedr
I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
Z can only dream
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Going by stats:
Australian Open: 4 titles for Agassi, 2 for Sampras (2-0 to Agassi in head-to-head)
Indian Wells: 1 title for Agassi, 2 for Sampras (1-1 in head-to-head)
Miami: 6 titles for Agassi, 3 for Sampras (1-1 in head-to-head)
Canada: 3 titles for Agassi, 0 for Sampras (2-0 to Agassi in head-to-head)
Cincinnati: 3 titles for Agassi, 3 for Sampras (1-0 to Sampras in head-to-head)
US Open: 2 titles for Agassi, 5 for Sampras (4-0 to Sampras in head-to-head)
Agassi also won 2002 Madrid on indoor hardcourt
Last edited:
Pheasant
Legend
1. Djokovic
2. Federer
3. Sampras
From there, it gets pretty darn tough.
Agassi regularly skipped the AO until his was 25. And yet, he still bagged 4 of these titles. That's incredible.
Lendl played the AO on grass until he was 28. Lendl's first 3 AO's on hard court were SF, champ, champ(ages 28-30). He also reeled off 8 straight USO finals, which is quite impressive.
Nadal had to go through the most accomplished hard court players in history. So it's no wonder why he never defended a title. Nadal is excellent as well.
McEnroe skipped the AO, which was grass anyway. But he won 3 straight USO titles and 4 before his 26th birthday, which is very impressive.
Number 4 is very tough call.
2. Federer
3. Sampras
From there, it gets pretty darn tough.
Agassi regularly skipped the AO until his was 25. And yet, he still bagged 4 of these titles. That's incredible.
Lendl played the AO on grass until he was 28. Lendl's first 3 AO's on hard court were SF, champ, champ(ages 28-30). He also reeled off 8 straight USO finals, which is quite impressive.
Nadal had to go through the most accomplished hard court players in history. So it's no wonder why he never defended a title. Nadal is excellent as well.
McEnroe skipped the AO, which was grass anyway. But he won 3 straight USO titles and 4 before his 26th birthday, which is very impressive.
Number 4 is very tough call.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Hmm, it's actually closer between the two than I originally thought. Still probably give the edge to Pete but only slightly.
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
I see this point constantly from people talking about Nadal’s lacking HC resume compared to Agassi. Here are the facts. Andre faced tougher competition on HC than Rafa did in Slams. Zero doubt about it.
Raf has 4 losses to Fedovic in HC Slams. USO 11, AO 12, AO 17, AO 19.
He was certainly good at the first 3 but imo he was not playing at a high, Slam winning level in AO 19.
Meanwhile Andre lost 4x to PETE, a comparable player to Fedovic in HC Slams. USO ‘90, 95, 01, 02. And don’t forget he lost to actual PEAK Fed in 3 HC Slams, USO 04/05, AO 05.
So that’s 7 times he was stopped by HC ATGs, Nadal only has 4. And if that wasn’t enough, Andre ran into peak Lendl at USO 88/89.
Andre also missed a lot of Slams, skipping the AO in 8 of his prime years and also having bad injuries in his career, so it’s not only Nadal with that excuse.
Andre is inarguably the better HC player.
StannisTheMannis
Hall of Fame
Djokovic, Conners….Federer distant 3rd.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
People assume that the peak Agassi of the 1995 Australian Open shows up if he plays at earlier Australian Opens, but what's to say that it wouldn't be the Agassi of the 1996 Australian Open (when a mixture of epic and flat, seldom brilliant), or worse the 1998 and 1999 versions? Agassi in the Bollettieri era was usually inconsistent.
Topspin_80
Hall of Fame
AUS Open 2022 win, was not elite enough in your opinion?
initialize
Hall of Fame
This is the correct order
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
Well, it wouldn’t be a high bar to be better than Nadal who got straight setted on 4 different occasions in his 5 losses from AO 05 to AO 11…
TheNachoMan
Legend
Agassi is underrated by the casual fan i feel. Surprised Netflix haven’t made a documentary on Andre yet.
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Peak had the highest peak on hards IMO. Including Djokovic in there. . But Agassi had a brilliant, consistent career on hards. Pete was streaky during early HC seasons. Maybe Pete is the best top level for top level, but in many ways Agassi may be the 2nd best Hardcourt player right behind djokovic. He has an argument for sure. Heck look at all the trouble Late career Agassi gave peak Fed at the US Open.
I would say Fed could be the best, but its hard to vouch for him when he can't win a US Open title after 2008. Thats big dinger against him
I would say Fed could be the best, but its hard to vouch for him when he can't win a US Open title after 2008. Thats big dinger against him
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Agassi was straight setted by Chang in 1996.
Razer
Legend
Pete is GOAT at USO, Novak is GOAT at AO, Fed is 2nd at both, so how can Fed be 1st overall by being 2nd at both ?
initialize
Hall of Fame
Even if you believe that, Fed is still better than Djoko at USO by a large margin, plus fast hardcourts and indoor courts. Djoke only has the advantage on slow courts
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Many people remember how low Agassi sank in 1997. He missed the Australian Open, supposedly for an ankle injury, but many think he had his mind on other things. His form crashed around March-April, then he was gone for a few months and got married to Brooke Shields, and the whole "crystal meth" positive test (not revealed until well over a decade later) around this time as well. His form in July and early August was terrible and he was out of the top 50. He had a pretty decent US Open (by 1997 standards) in getting to the Round of 16, but he had been defending semi final points from the previous year's US Open, so Agassi's ranking continued to crash. After a poor loss to Todd Martin in his first match in Stuttgart Indoor, Brad Gilbert was at the end of his tether, and basically told Agassi to either seriously dedicate from scratch and play some challenger events, or to retire. Agassi chose the former, and then stayed dedicated for most of the next 8-9 years. Ironically, as he got serious about tennis again, his marriage to Brooke Shields started falling apart.
Agassi's ranking went as low as 141 in the world on 10 November 1997. He had been number 1 as recently as 11 February 1996. And he would be back at number 1 in July 1999. Agassi's low moments in the summer and autumn of 1997 were big news. The talk was that he was likely finished and would probably retire.
Razer
Legend
Overall this is Top 10 HC Win% in Grand Slams for a minimum 20 matches played.
| Rank | Country | Name | Overall Matches | Won | Lost | Played |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | SRB | Novak Djokovic | 75.00% | 39 | 13 | 52 |
| 2 | USA | John McEnroe | 72.73% | 16 | 6 | 22 |
| 3 | USA | Pete Sampras | 70.37% | 19 | 8 | 27 |
| 4 | SUI | Roger Federer | 69.81% | 37 | 16 | 53 |
| 5 | USA | Andre Agassi | 60.00% | 18 | 12 | 30 |
| 6 | USA | Ivan Lendl | 58.82% | 20 | 14 | 34 |
| 7 | SUI | Stan Wawrinka | 51.85% | 14 | 13 | 27 |
| 8 | ESP | Rafael Nadal | 50.00% | 16 | 16 | 32 |
TheNachoMan
Legend
Probably the most interesting story in tennis. Way more so than any of the big 3.
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
No.
Pheasant
Legend
I forgot about Agassi facing Lendl in the USO semis in both 1988 and 1989. Lendl was ranked world #1 both times Agassi faced him.
Even though Lendl had slipped a notch in 1990, he still managed to push Sampras to 5 sets in the 1990 USO. Sampras ended up winning that event. I'd include Lendl as an ATG hardcourt player as well. That makes 9 hard court ATG's that stopped Agassi. Your point is a good one.
Lendl at the USO:
1985 USO: won QF, semi, and Final all in straight set blowouts and all 3 opponents were in the top 10(#7 Noah, #4 Connors, #1 McEnroe)
1986 USO: lost one set total from QF-final, which includes crushing #4 Edberg in straight sets.
1987 USO: lost one set total from QF-final, includes crushing both McEnroe and Connors in straight sets. He managed to lose a tight tiebreaker to Wilander(9-7), but made up for that lone lost set by bageling Wilander the very next set.
I stand corrected. With that being said, I'd probably put Lendl #4, followed closely by Agassi. Lendl said in later years that Rebound Ace was his favorite surface. Makes sense. At age 29, he won, then defended that title at age 30. Rebound Ace was slow compared to the USO back then. Not many players have defended a hart court slam at both events.
WeekendTennisHack
Hall of Fame
You never took advanced math?
Hypothetically:
USO
Pete 10
Fed 9
Djokovic 5
AO
Djokovic 10
Federer 8
Pete 6
Now here's the hard part, you take an A-V-E-R-A-G-E.
Federer 8.5
Pete 8
Djokovic 7.5
Mustard
Bionic Poster
An 18-year-old Agassi was on a 23 match winning streak going into the 1988 US Open semi final against Lendl, and already world number 4 (would soon be 3). Agassi was already having a grudge match with a veteran like Connors and winning (Connors was twice Agassi's age at 36), Agassi beating Connors 6-2, 7-6, 6-1 in the quarter final (having predicted 6-3, 6-3, 6-3, still 9 games lost).
Lendl was expected to beat Sampras at the 1990 US Open. Sampras was a 19-year-old rising player, Lendl a 30-year-old veteran who had been in the previous 8 US Open finals. Lendl hadn't slipped at that point, unless it's from 1985-87 time.
Wilander had set points in the third set, but Lendl won 6-7, 6-0, 7-6, 6-4. The match was 4 hours and 47 minutes, despite only being 4 sets and 1 of the sets being 6-0.
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