Topspin Shot
Legend
If you lose to a pusher or lobber or whatever, you should probably keep mum about it. Or at least I would.
Why do people hate pushers?
- Thread starter FanOfLu
- Start date
Yeah we all know the definition of a pusher. But what I am saying is that outside of a few isolated incidents it never really works that way.
In theory you could have one super fast guy who hits everything back loopy and into the middle and another guy who has good powerful strokes (weapons) and still loses.
In practice what you see out there on the court is entirely different.
You see one player playing 'outside' his skill level - smashing balls into the net and try to use his 'weapons' and another player WITH APPROXIMATELY THE SAME SKILL playing it safe.
So its not really a 'pusher' vs. "proper tennis player scenario' It's one guy playing a game that matches his ego and another guy playing 'outside' his skill level.
The Bashkin Park video is about the only pusher I have ever seen win. But even then its not clear the Asian guy has any weapons!
Since pushers are so common - I invite anyone who loses to them (or plays them tight) to post a video. I'd love to see some guy winning with just speed and no weapons vs. beating a guy who hits big off the ground. I am not kidding its would be entertaining.
Guys like Michael Chang are the rare exception - not the rule. I suspect the reason we see so few videos like that is that the pusher 'victim' recognizes that his 'weapons' are not real..just the same strokes as the pusher hit with less control..
Mick
Legend
>>Mr. Murray insists his defensive game is his weapon, unconventional as it might be, and he doesn't see reverting to it, instead of to a killer forehand or breakneck backhand, as a sign of weakness.
"He tangles you up in these rallies and you can't do anything about it because if you play too aggressively you lose and if you play too passively you lose," Mr. Federer told reporters after narrowly beating Mr. Murray 6-3, 6-4, 7-6 for the Australian Open title earlier this year.<<
http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704423504575212123667809734
"He tangles you up in these rallies and you can't do anything about it because if you play too aggressively you lose and if you play too passively you lose," Mr. Federer told reporters after narrowly beating Mr. Murray 6-3, 6-4, 7-6 for the Australian Open title earlier this year.<<
http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704423504575212123667809734
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KineticChain
Hall of Fame
someone mad?
jussumman
Hall of Fame
Looks like we got ourselves a pusher in here boys. Legs get him. Lol. They definitely play "not to lose the point " each rally. That's a fact. Its OK if you're a pusher or anyone is, just know that it is the least enjoyable an most miserable tennis experience for most of their opponents.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
These guys sum it up quite well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1flUs2TwFg
The pusher "will sell you lots of sweet dreams". However, the pusher can be a monster "who doesn't care if you live or if you die". "GD, the pusher... I said GD, GD the pusher man".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1flUs2TwFg
The pusher "will sell you lots of sweet dreams". However, the pusher can be a monster "who doesn't care if you live or if you die". "GD, the pusher... I said GD, GD the pusher man".
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Well, I can't say my losers enjoy their loses with me. hehe
but yeah I hit to middle a lot and with weak power, AND i'm 20 lbs over weighed LOL.players that are consistent but cant move and dont volley well are pushers. if they do move well, play percentage, and have capable volleys then they are counterpunchers.
You cant just hit them off the court. If you try you will loose more than win.
against actual pushers you can just be patient and play percentages until the point opens up and your options open. You can also bring them into the net. pushing and counterpunching is psychological. They are not aggressive minded players and don't like taking an aggressive position on the court.
pushers who use a lot of variety are junk ballers. if you dont serve and volley or approach and volley....matches can turn into a real mess. usually you know whats going on when some young kid breaks a racquet or two against an old man with bad knees, hips, etc.
You cant just hit them off the court. If you try you will loose more than win.
against actual pushers you can just be patient and play percentages until the point opens up and your options open. You can also bring them into the net. pushing and counterpunching is psychological. They are not aggressive minded players and don't like taking an aggressive position on the court.
pushers who use a lot of variety are junk ballers. if you dont serve and volley or approach and volley....matches can turn into a real mess. usually you know whats going on when some young kid breaks a racquet or two against an old man with bad knees, hips, etc.
crash1929
Hall of Fame
Everyone has a different definition of a pusher. I think Novak is a pusher because in my opinion there are plenty of times when he could go for a slightly bigger shot but he almost never does. It's like he says I'm just going to stay out here all day and hit deep safe balls 'till the sun goes down..
nytennis-74
Semi-Pro
I hate club pushers (3.5 level) because they generally do not want to improve. They ended up with an ugly game with a lot of spinless lobs and think that is ok. It never occurs to them that with a litte effort they could have a better game (they spend enough time on the court - they could definitely do it).
I am glad I moved up and do not have to play with them anymore.
I am glad I moved up and do not have to play with them anymore.
donquijote
G.O.A.T.
I think Radwanska is a counter-puncher and Errani is a pusher although she is good at the net (doubles champ!) and moves very well.
navigator
Hall of Fame
This hints at the notion that consistency, in and of itself, is a weapon, albeit one that is not widely recognized as such. Heresy!!
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
Enga
Hall of Fame
I used to dislike the pusher style. But its humbling to lose to them every once in a while. It makes me realize that tennis isnt a sport of strokes to be compartmentalized and divided like a player is only the sum of his strokes.
Tennis is a game of person vs person. You're not playing against a stroke. You're playing against a player who has his game and style.
And its not his strokes which beat you. It was him. Its okay to not be able to stand losing to him. But dont blame the strokes.
Tennis is a game of person vs person. You're not playing against a stroke. You're playing against a player who has his game and style.
And its not his strokes which beat you. It was him. Its okay to not be able to stand losing to him. But dont blame the strokes.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
I used to as well. One guy that I play started slicing back my flat bombs, high and deep and then started hitting several of these in a row. I'm pretty sure that he picked it up from pro matches as he watches those and adds stuff to his game. It took me a while to adjust but I just got into a rhythm of rallies and being patient to the point where he started calling me a pusher.
Basically you have to adapt to what other players throw at you.
Basically you have to adapt to what other players throw at you.
No this is this is pretty much everyone's idea of a pusher. Anyone who chooses to uses defensive strategy and hits balls that don't get them in trouble are 'pushers' even the top players of the world.
The 'other' type of pusher - the guy that hits everything back on the court like a some incredible robot but with marginal pace and spin is so rare as to not really exist.
Thus when coaches here about players losing to 'pushers' they come up with strategies to beat the robot. Only to hear how those strategies 'don't work.'
What 'pusher' victims want is for their opponent to play like an idiot - and they are frustrated when they do not. Well don't go expecting me to change direction on a well hit ball.
You can call me 'pusher' all you like. I think of it as not playing stupid..
JackB1
G.O.A.T.
Agree with this. If I had to choose between "pusher" or "idiot" I would take pusher all day long. We need a name for those players that continue to go for shots at the wrong times and continue to rack up the UEs match after match?
For the 'rare' robot pusher - absolutely. Michael Chang - quick but played defensively.
But for tennis message board posters - it's pretty much anyone who chooses to not use terrible 'aggressive' shot selection. You can see guys that are as slow as hell being called pushers.
Agassi wasn't a speedster and when he started to play smarter tennis - people started calling him a pusher. Oh wait don't always try to rip winners down the line from 6 feet behind the baseline? Oh you are a pusher..
That's what forum posters think are 'pushers' and that's why you can go to parks and clubs and not see any guys that play like Michael Chang - and yet read about pushers in every single thread in every single forum on message boards.
WildVolley
Legend
Pusher hate seems to be fairly universal.
Only on this board do I see people brag about being pushers.
When I was coaching tennis, even pushers hated to play other pushers during a match. It was funny to watch a pusher complain about how much he hated pushers. Probably because the fitness requirements were so great and the match was so boring.
Only on this board do I see people brag about being pushers.
When I was coaching tennis, even pushers hated to play other pushers during a match. It was funny to watch a pusher complain about how much he hated pushers. Probably because the fitness requirements were so great and the match was so boring.
FitzRoy
Professional
I think the answer is simple: when a player who thinks of him/herself as being pretty good at tennis sees or plays against someone who focuses primarily on getting the ball back into the court, he or she will mentally label that other player as a 'pusher'.
In the mind of a player who considers him/herself good, this 'pusher' label is certainly a negative one, but it doesn't in and of itself explain the hate.
What explains the hate is when a player who thinks of him/herself as 'good' either struggles to beat, or worse loses to, a player that he or she thinks of as a pusher. When faced with the reality of not being as good as he or she thought (by virtue of not being able to easily beat a 'pusher'), many a player will focus mainly on negativity toward the pusher rather than on any shortcomings in his or her own game.
That's how I feel, anyway, speaking from past experience. I started to get a lot better at match play when I stopped thinking of players like this as pushers and started seeing them as worthy opponents. Which they are - a good pusher will make you really earn it, every time.
In the mind of a player who considers him/herself good, this 'pusher' label is certainly a negative one, but it doesn't in and of itself explain the hate.
What explains the hate is when a player who thinks of him/herself as 'good' either struggles to beat, or worse loses to, a player that he or she thinks of as a pusher. When faced with the reality of not being as good as he or she thought (by virtue of not being able to easily beat a 'pusher'), many a player will focus mainly on negativity toward the pusher rather than on any shortcomings in his or her own game.
That's how I feel, anyway, speaking from past experience. I started to get a lot better at match play when I stopped thinking of players like this as pushers and started seeing them as worthy opponents. Which they are - a good pusher will make you really earn it, every time.
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
There is a particular breed of pushers I have encountered at my recreational level (3.5-4.0).
They are
a. usually older, have played a lot of tennis (usually 20+ years) and have been at the same level for most of this time, not in very good shape, are dealing with injuries and stick to playing doubles.
b. Use high powered, large headed, light weight racquets.
c. Don't generate much pace of their own. Their serves rarely get to the back fence in a single bounce. Their normal strokes where they generate their own pace tend be short, slow and low or no spin high lobs.
d. They have very good reflexes and their game is based on redirecting the ball to the open court, generating angles, mixed in with a lot of random garbage to throw the opponent off.
Some of the good natured ones of this type are fun to play with. They appreciate a hard hitter who goes for the first strike winner. They improve an up and coming player like me who came to the game recently and in on a upward trajectory. They hone my court awareness, running down tricky balls, dealing with variety/randomness and hitting on the run shots on soft balls.
The people I don't appreciate are those of this playing style who are not good natured. I make it a point to complement the tenacity, guile and experience that went into the points that folks of this style win off of me and in most cases I complement the idea behind a near miss as well. I am not expecting an appreciation of the effort that went into generating a clean hard hit winner by these players (nice as it may be). But what I don't appreciate is the talking down, mind games and inability to accept what comes with a hard hitting style. I have had people who seem happy to play as long as they are keeping up or ahead but turn on a dime and complain that I could kill somebody when I hit a hard passing shot close to their body or put away an overhead or a high bouncing lob. They seem to expect puff balls back in return or something in their wheel house that they can block and redirect. To me hard body serves, attacking a poacher at the net, closing out slow weak returns generated from an earlier hard shot with a ripper straight back at the opponent are a normal part of tennis. What I don't appreciate is people wanting me to take my weapons away from me with the implication that they would complain if I were to keep playing hard. The worst kind are those that call clean aces that landed in the box (not even on a line) out just to get a reaction. When challenged (which I rarely do) one particularly egregious guy told me it was too fast and he thought it was out, but I must have foot faulted. I think having a ball whizz past close to you without being able to even react, is hard on the ego.
They are
a. usually older, have played a lot of tennis (usually 20+ years) and have been at the same level for most of this time, not in very good shape, are dealing with injuries and stick to playing doubles.
b. Use high powered, large headed, light weight racquets.
c. Don't generate much pace of their own. Their serves rarely get to the back fence in a single bounce. Their normal strokes where they generate their own pace tend be short, slow and low or no spin high lobs.
d. They have very good reflexes and their game is based on redirecting the ball to the open court, generating angles, mixed in with a lot of random garbage to throw the opponent off.
Some of the good natured ones of this type are fun to play with. They appreciate a hard hitter who goes for the first strike winner. They improve an up and coming player like me who came to the game recently and in on a upward trajectory. They hone my court awareness, running down tricky balls, dealing with variety/randomness and hitting on the run shots on soft balls.
The people I don't appreciate are those of this playing style who are not good natured. I make it a point to complement the tenacity, guile and experience that went into the points that folks of this style win off of me and in most cases I complement the idea behind a near miss as well. I am not expecting an appreciation of the effort that went into generating a clean hard hit winner by these players (nice as it may be). But what I don't appreciate is the talking down, mind games and inability to accept what comes with a hard hitting style. I have had people who seem happy to play as long as they are keeping up or ahead but turn on a dime and complain that I could kill somebody when I hit a hard passing shot close to their body or put away an overhead or a high bouncing lob. They seem to expect puff balls back in return or something in their wheel house that they can block and redirect. To me hard body serves, attacking a poacher at the net, closing out slow weak returns generated from an earlier hard shot with a ripper straight back at the opponent are a normal part of tennis. What I don't appreciate is people wanting me to take my weapons away from me with the implication that they would complain if I were to keep playing hard. The worst kind are those that call clean aces that landed in the box (not even on a line) out just to get a reaction. When challenged (which I rarely do) one particularly egregious guy told me it was too fast and he thought it was out, but I must have foot faulted. I think having a ball whizz past close to you without being able to even react, is hard on the ego.
bigservesofthands
Semi-Pro
good pushers and bad pushers
There is a particular breed of pushers I have encountered at my recreational level (3.5-4.0).
They are
a. usually older, have played a lot of tennis (usually 20+ years) and have been at the same level for most of this time, not in very good shape, are dealing with injuries and stick to playing doubles.
b. Use high powered, large headed, light weight racquets.
c. Don't generate much pace of their own. Their serves rarely get to the back fence in a single bounce. Their normal strokes where they generate their own pace tend be short, slow and low or no spin high lobs.
d. They have very good reflexes and their game is based on redirecting the ball to the open court, generating angles, mixed in with a lot of random garbage to throw the opponent off.
Some of the good natured ones of this type are fun to play with. They appreciate a hard hitter who goes for the first strike winner. They improve an up and coming player like me who came to the game recently and in on a upward trajectory. They hone my court awareness, running down tricky balls, dealing with variety/randomness and hitting on the run shots on soft balls.
The people I don't appreciate are those of this playing style who are not good natured. I make it a point to complement the tenacity, guile and experience that went into the points that folks of this style win off of me and in most cases I complement the idea behind a near miss as well. I am not expecting an appreciation of the effort that went into generating a clean hard hit winner by these players (nice as it may be). But what I don't appreciate is the talking down, mind games and inability to accept what comes with a hard hitting style. I have had people who seem happy to play as long as they are keeping up or ahead but turn on a dime and complain that I could kill somebody when I hit a hard passing shot close to their body or put away an overhead or a high bouncing lob. They seem to expect puff balls back in return or something in their wheel house that they can block and redirect. To me hard body serves, attacking a poacher at the net, closing out slow weak returns generated from an earlier hard shot with a ripper straight back at the opponent are a normal part of tennis. What I don't appreciate is people wanting me to take my weapons away from me with the implication that they would complain if I were to keep playing hard. The worst kind are those that call clean aces that landed in the box (not even on a line) out just to get a reaction. When challenged (which I rarely do) one particularly egregious guy told me it was too fast and he thought it was out, but I must have foot faulted. I think having a ball whizz past close to you without being able to even react, is hard on the ego.
There is a particular breed of pushers I have encountered at my recreational level (3.5-4.0).
They are
a. usually older, have played a lot of tennis (usually 20+ years) and have been at the same level for most of this time, not in very good shape, are dealing with injuries and stick to playing doubles.
b. Use high powered, large headed, light weight racquets.
c. Don't generate much pace of their own. Their serves rarely get to the back fence in a single bounce. Their normal strokes where they generate their own pace tend be short, slow and low or no spin high lobs.
d. They have very good reflexes and their game is based on redirecting the ball to the open court, generating angles, mixed in with a lot of random garbage to throw the opponent off.
Some of the good natured ones of this type are fun to play with. They appreciate a hard hitter who goes for the first strike winner. They improve an up and coming player like me who came to the game recently and in on a upward trajectory. They hone my court awareness, running down tricky balls, dealing with variety/randomness and hitting on the run shots on soft balls.
The people I don't appreciate are those of this playing style who are not good natured. I make it a point to complement the tenacity, guile and experience that went into the points that folks of this style win off of me and in most cases I complement the idea behind a near miss as well. I am not expecting an appreciation of the effort that went into generating a clean hard hit winner by these players (nice as it may be). But what I don't appreciate is the talking down, mind games and inability to accept what comes with a hard hitting style. I have had people who seem happy to play as long as they are keeping up or ahead but turn on a dime and complain that I could kill somebody when I hit a hard passing shot close to their body or put away an overhead or a high bouncing lob. They seem to expect puff balls back in return or something in their wheel house that they can block and redirect. To me hard body serves, attacking a poacher at the net, closing out slow weak returns generated from an earlier hard shot with a ripper straight back at the opponent are a normal part of tennis. What I don't appreciate is people wanting me to take my weapons away from me with the implication that they would complain if I were to keep playing hard. The worst kind are those that call clean aces that landed in the box (not even on a line) out just to get a reaction. When challenged (which I rarely do) one particularly egregious guy told me it was too fast and he thought it was out, but I must have foot faulted. I think having a ball whizz past close to you without being able to even react, is hard on the ego.
PMChambers
Hall of Fame
Chang was a counter puncher, his small stature put him behind the baseline on serve and usually return. I've seen him live a few times and he's quiet aggressive inside the baseline. He's a player who turns defence in attack well, and he'd prefer to attack than defend but he can against the big servers and hitters.
dlk
Hall of Fame
Agree. Whenever I want to win, I put the ball back between my opponents' lines. When I want to practice, I try various styles of tennis. Never could understand the disdain for method of winning.
Sure but as close as you can get to a pusher at the pro level. I think the term is 'grinder' that best describes Chang.
Recreationally - anytime a player chooses to play 'safe' patterns - he gets termed a pusher. One very simple pattern for rec players is this..
Hit every ball towards (roughly) pushing it some to the left or right (cross court). This is a really good pattern that will win 3.0s and 3.5s lots of matches.
Hit the ball with enough depth and you can cut down the angles for your opponent so its harder for them to hit winners..
This tactic will get the player branded a pusher - but its smarter tennis. Go for too much DTL like a hard DTL serve return and you will just give up free points.
In tennis - defense pays off..unlike say basketball - defending well actually scores you points. So strategizing around sound defense is extremely effective.
You do not have to be fast either..Agassi was pretty slow and was able to use his ball striking to increase his defense (especially in his later years).
A defense first pattern is all you need to get yourself branded a pusher by some players.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
If they can't move but can put the ball back in play 1 more time to beat you, than you must be really really super bad. Bad like ..you basically can't hit a single shot in because every shot in always requires some sort of moving. LOL.
Mick
Legend
... if you have a net game and know how to hit overheads
that's a big if for those who have problem playing pushers
it's worse then that - lots of times against a Matt Lin type they can just start ripping the ball down the line on you..
People label people as 'pushers' when they get beat with defensive patterns. That doesn't mean your opponent HAS to use a defensive pattern.
In fact you should use the safest easiest pattern to beat your opponent. If you can beat a guy hitting every ball back up the middle - you can and should do this..
FitzRoy
Professional
This is really true. All of the guys I've encountered who are successful "pushers" at 4.0, and especially all the ones who make it to 4.5, are very adept at either lobbing or getting the ball low to make opponent at net volley up...or are just adept at both. The guys who smartly get the ball down first are usually pretty speedy and are good at getting the ball by you if you leave something up for them.
You just have to be a pretty good player to beat someone like that, bottom line.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
because they don't look like Federer
Mick
Legend
you mean they don't "play" like Federer
there are a lot of Federer posers out there who cannot handle pushers.
ReggieHurley
Rookie
pushers r OP bro
fullpolyserve&volley
Rookie
It's because you come home from a hard week/day of work and expect a good solid challenge to test your technique and strategies in a fun environment to then play someone who has no interest in making the game fun. If that's all they're capable of doing fair enough. But alot of players will deliberately not play the game properly for the sake of winning. And it leaves the proper player thinking "are they that desparate?" i.e serve paddy cakes to make the returner bend over and come to the net.... over and over.... (and then of course when the opponent stands super close in to take the short serve, the pusher serves fast at the body. God I hate that)
And it becomes mundane, boring and can make the player hoping for a proper match embarrassed to be seen losing. It's also a lot harder to play against pushers with these modern tennis balls that are heavier and slower. They favour drop shots and are more difficult to hit through moonballs etc. In the 90's if you chipped or pushed a ball short it would sit up and get clobbered by the attacker. These days, if you push it back (even with little to no topspin). It'll rapidly sink to the ground for an easy point (or at least trap the other guy to the net or no man's land). Especially in colder weather.
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fullpolyserve&volley
Rookie
Agreed. I also blame the balls. Its almost as if people need to have more powerful racquets now that the balls are so slow and heavy.
fullpolyserve&volley
Rookie
well guys, I love playing pushers because:
(1) they can get the ball back unlike the players who cannot keep the ball in play. I would rather engaging in a rally with them than spending time picking up the balls every 5 seconds.
(2) by definition, pushers don't go for winners so there is less pressure in playing them than playing against the players who want to hurt you with their strokes. They don't rush you, you can take your own time when you want to hit those decisive winners.
(3) I would get a better work out by playing against a pusher. When I play tennis, I want to run and cover the court. With other types of player, sometimes only my arms get to work out :shock:
(4) Usually, I would win
Come to australia and beat some of the ones here then please. But be prepared to bend over and over and over and over and then when you finally win the point have it called out or long. Having said that though, i cant be be too mad towards pushers. Australia is the number 1 in the world for recreational drug use and pirate downloading. So these are the kind of people im stuck playing with and being around in general...
fullpolyserve&volley
Rookie
The thing is though, youre still playing properly. Its a defensive counter punch. I have no qualms about a player knowing, distance and timing. And Controlling rhythm and depth of the rallies. The ones that i cant stand as ive said before are the ones that exploit the new conditions so badly to win points, they may as well be playing in a little kids grade.
Cowboyardee
Rookie
No offense, but from your post upthread it sounds more like they're exploiting your lack of mobility than any new conditions caused by balls, racquets, etc.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
Not to pick on anyone here.. but when I hear someone say, "I hate playing pushers...", I usually envision someone who spends hours and hours of practice on the court, hitting from 1 spot on the court (eg. 1ft behind the middle tick mark). They hit *AMAZING* from their "pitcher's mound". It truly is satisfying after hard/bad day of work to thunk hard consistent balls again and again, and feel good about being competent at something (I get it, I'm guilty of this from time to time ). Kinda reminds of the scene in "Karate Kid" where Mr. Miyagi makes fun of folks breaking wood... "Wood no hit back" (ie. what good is technique if you don't use it practically in live sparring/hitting where the opp is trying to make you miss).
Ever go to a tennis lesson with a competent feeder, and feel like you learned so much because you hit a million hard balls in the court,.... only to go out to a match, and can't hit a ball in the court? Yeah, because now the ball is no longer in the same spot (compared to when being fed).
I know lots of 3.5 and 4.0 players that look amazing if you hit the ball right to them. Lots of times they don't even realize that part of the reason they're hitting so well is because you're hitting back a consistent ball in the same spot to them. That's also the reason it's hard to tell the difference between 4.5, 5.0, and maybe even 5.5, if you're just watching a cooperative hitting session.
I recall one guy I practiced with (I was looking to hit with anyone that day) that had a solid 4.0+ fh when hit to him at the baseline, and a mediocre ~3.5 backhand (eg. think high slice). I spent 30 min hitting exclusively to his forehand, and tried not to make him move much, just so I can get some longer rallies in practice. At some point he started intentionally making me move, and hit winners when he could... which was fine me since it's always good practice for me to be hitting on the run (eg. simulate attacking a lefty who's backhand is weaker than his forehand). After he beat me up for about 20 min (I definitely lost more points), I asked if he wanted to play a set... at which time, all I did was underhand or kick serve to his backhand, dinked and moonballed him to 6-0... not one hard groundstroke to his forehand. "Pushing" was a far better tactic than hitting hard.
For folks that complain that pushers are not playing the "right way"... I interpret "right way" to mean, play like the pros, where you get into deep ball rallies, trying to force a short ball, attack the midcourt ball, come to net, and end the point with an overhead... Yeah, in my mind that's the way I work towards myself, but against good very fit pushers, they quickly highlight that my vision of the perfect world is flawed in that:
* I'm not consistent at hitting hard and deep
* I'm even less consistent taking advantage of mid court balls
* my movement/anticipation relative to the ball often puts me in the wrong position to strike
* my fitness level does not match the vision in my head
* ...and I make alot of errs before getting to that magical put away overhead
Like other folks playing pushers, I used to get frustrated because pushers don't appear to be playing to the same idealistic vision. They play within their comfort zone (eg. hustling and hitting with less than pro-like strokes). Most importantly, they beat me, and make me look bad in the process (despite having a nice matching shirt and shorts, with sneakers to compliment, and "pretty" strokes).
Took me a while to realize they understand the core premise of playing tennis, get the last ball back
). Kinda reminds of the scene in "Karate Kid" where Mr. Miyagi makes fun of folks breaking wood... "Wood no hit back" (ie. what good is technique if you don't use it practically in live sparring/hitting where the opp is trying to make you miss).Ever go to a tennis lesson with a competent feeder, and feel like you learned so much because you hit a million hard balls in the court,.... only to go out to a match, and can't hit a ball in the court? Yeah, because now the ball is no longer in the same spot (compared to when being fed).
I know lots of 3.5 and 4.0 players that look amazing if you hit the ball right to them. Lots of times they don't even realize that part of the reason they're hitting so well is because you're hitting back a consistent ball in the same spot to them. That's also the reason it's hard to tell the difference between 4.5, 5.0, and maybe even 5.5, if you're just watching a cooperative hitting session.
I recall one guy I practiced with (I was looking to hit with anyone that day) that had a solid 4.0+ fh when hit to him at the baseline, and a mediocre ~3.5 backhand (eg. think high slice). I spent 30 min hitting exclusively to his forehand, and tried not to make him move much, just so I can get some longer rallies in practice. At some point he started intentionally making me move, and hit winners when he could... which was fine me since it's always good practice for me to be hitting on the run (eg. simulate attacking a lefty who's backhand is weaker than his forehand). After he beat me up for about 20 min (I definitely lost more points), I asked if he wanted to play a set... at which time, all I did was underhand or kick serve to his backhand, dinked and moonballed him to 6-0... not one hard groundstroke to his forehand. "Pushing" was a far better tactic than hitting hard.
For folks that complain that pushers are not playing the "right way"... I interpret "right way" to mean, play like the pros, where you get into deep ball rallies, trying to force a short ball, attack the midcourt ball, come to net, and end the point with an overhead... Yeah, in my mind that's the way I work towards myself, but against good very fit pushers, they quickly highlight that my vision of the perfect world is flawed in that:
* I'm not consistent at hitting hard and deep
* I'm even less consistent taking advantage of mid court balls
* my movement/anticipation relative to the ball often puts me in the wrong position to strike
* my fitness level does not match the vision in my head
* ...and I make alot of errs before getting to that magical put away overhead
Like other folks playing pushers, I used to get frustrated because pushers don't appear to be playing to the same idealistic vision. They play within their comfort zone (eg. hustling and hitting with less than pro-like strokes). Most importantly, they beat me, and make me look bad in the process (despite having a nice matching shirt and shorts, with sneakers to compliment, and "pretty" strokes).
Took me a while to realize they understand the core premise of playing tennis, get the last ball back
fullpolyserve&volley
Rookie
Thats ok, No im pretty quick and i dont have anywhere near as many issues with pushers as i did 2 years ago. But they did cause me to injure myself in a collision from constantly bending over and having to bloody slide and split like novak. Playing 10 pushers in a row in fixture matches does that. A pusher in america is different to australia. They still show the classic style or moonballs and slices. But points they go for will be the drop shot or something short and low. Thats probably why i serve and volley so well now. To stop them from chopping or pushing it down just past the service box. There's no such thing as a normal, standing upright rally against these sorts. You may as well have your racquet on the ground. Its not fun man.
The way i got around it was choosing a different racquet and modifying it with some lead and string choices. I bascially escalated my gear to deal with the new conditions. I can now plough through their shots better and rip it up even when its low and create a heavy ball thats enough to throw them off their game and let me play mine. That helped me move up so i dont play them as much. Every now and then ill play against one with a stock standard weight for the heck of it and boy does it remind me how hard it can be to beat one. Especially using wilson australian open balls in cold weather...
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
Interesting... I was thinking of doing this (again). Where did you put the lead? While it groundies felt amazing, I felt that dramatically affected the handling at net.
fullpolyserve&volley
Rookie
Not to pick on anyone here.. but when I hear someone say, "I hate playing pushers...", I usually envision someone who spends hours and hours of practice on the court, hitting from 1 spot on the court (eg. 1ft behind the middle tick mark). They hit *AMAZING* from their "pitcher's mound". It truly is satisfying after hard/bad day of work to thunk hard consistent balls again and again, and feel good about being competent at something (I get it, I'm guilty of this from time to time
Ever go to a tennis lesson with a competent feeder, and feel like you learned so much because you hit a million hard balls in the court,.... only to go out to a match, and can't hit a ball in the court? Yeah, because now the ball is no longer in the same spot (compared to when being fed).
I know lots of 3.5 and 4.0 players that look amazing if you hit the ball right to them. Lots of times they don't even realize that part of the reason they're hitting so well is because you're hitting back a consistent ball in the same spot to them. That's also the reason it's hard to tell the difference between 4.5, 5.0, and maybe even 5.5, if you're just watching a cooperative hitting session.
I recall one guy I practiced with (I was looking to hit with anyone that day) that had a solid 4.0+ fh when hit to him at the baseline, and a mediocre ~3.5 backhand (eg. think high slice). I spent 30 min hitting exclusively to his forehand, and tried not to make him move much, just so I can get some longer rallies in practice. At some point he started intentionally making me move, and hit winners when he could... which was fine me since it's always good practice for me to be hitting on the run (eg. simulate attacking a lefty who's backhand is weaker than his forehand). After he beat me up for about 20 min (I definitely lost more points), I asked if he wanted to play a set... at which time, all I did was underhand or kick serve to his backhand, dinked and moonballed him to 6-0... not one hard groundstroke to his forehand. "Pushing" was a far better tactic than hitting hard.
For folks that complain that pushers are not playing the "right way"... I interpret "right way" to mean, play like the pros, where you get into deep ball rallies, trying to force a short ball, attack the midcourt ball, come to net, and end the point with an overhead... Yeah, in my mind that's the way I work towards myself, but against good very fit pushers, they quickly highlight that my vision of the perfect world is flawed in that:
* I'm not consistent at hitting hard and deep
* I'm even less consistent taking advantage of mid court balls
* my movement/anticipation relative to the ball often puts me in the wrong position to strike
* my fitness level does not match the vision in my head
* ...and I make alot of errs before getting to that magical put away overhead
Like other folks playing pushers, I used to get frustrated because pushers don't appear to be playing to the same idealistic vision. They play within their comfort zone (eg. hustling and hitting with less than pro-like strokes). Most importantly, they beat me, and make me look bad in the process (despite having a nice matching shirt and shorts, with sneakers to compliment, and "pretty" strokes).
Took me a while to realize they understand the core premise of playing tennis, get the last ball back
My definition of playing the right way is something being some form of game. I dont mean hit it hard so i can hit my shots hard and look good. I mean something where anything can happen. Something that be can exciting. And have both players going "oooooh" on every nailbiting point.
I was just saying before If someone (fully grown man) starts serving like a little kid because they want the serve to be a drop shot after serving normally for the majority of the match. I question the mental state of the person a little. Thats all im saying. Because thats pretty shameless. I dont think even a genuine pusher would enjoy someone doing that, And on the topic of shameless, my country australia recently got crowned the number 1 in the world for recreational drug use. Thats terrible as we know. Its something like 1 in 4 are on something. And they dont care. They even take pride in it on their social media. Im embarrassed. And i know we shouldnt judge people on how they look. But i think its easy to see when a person has been using drugs for a long time. And in australia, i usually see someone on drugs walking into a tennis club and immediately assume pusher. And im very usually right. So thats my deep seeded beef with them. But only exlcusively to australia. Playing a pusher thats like "wall" or "absorber" i acknowlege would be a genuine challenge.
fullpolyserve&volley
Rookie
I have a collection of racquets. So its hard to say. Some i like putting it at just 12 oclock. Others were more 10 and 2. Just so long as you like it and its good for attacking low balls and hitting through high ones.
Dont be afraid to put some under the grip. Grab your racquet in a continental grip, gauge where your palm sits. And put some lead there (naturally both sides). That should make it more maneuverable and generate more force through the shot like a volley. It could also juice up your serve.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
Interesting perspective.
Regarding "little kid" serving... usually when I serve underhand, I'm trying to catch someone off guard, especially if I've been serving hard all match (I don't serve that hard... 80-90mph), and my opp is just standing 5ft behind the baseline to lob it back deep.
Even if I do get away with it once, the better players I play with typically are fast enough to attack it by either:
1) re-dropping me
2) deep approach shot
Most times I'll lose the positional advantage I should have as server, so I rarely use it... Unless of course I realize my opp can't move up well to do either 1 or 2. That said, I have had someone yell at me/walk off the court when I served like that for entire game... but mainly because it was effective against him.
Regarding drug users... your perspective gives "Pusher" an entire different meaning
Cowboyardee
Rookie
That was my thought too - if you're getting caught by 'drop serves' more often than every once in a blue moon, you're likely either lacking mobility on the court or else standing way too far behind the baseline to compensate for a big serve. Losing mobility sucks, especially when it's caused by age or injury, and of course I can see why such a player would prefer to play someone who doesn't exploit this.
But if you're standing too far back on return, IMO the other player absolutely SHOULD punish you for it. Your positioning is costing him aces and weak returns on his usual first serve - why should he let you get away with that?
I don't underhand 'drop' serve, but I do something that serves the same purpose. I'm a lefty with a fairly hard flat serve; if you stand too far back to compensate, I have slice serve with a very low quick toss and a very dramatic curve out wide to the righty backhand. If you're ten feet behind the baseline (especially if you're covering the big flat serve up the T at all), you'll never catch up to it on the AD side.
fullpolyserve&volley
Rookie
Interesting perspective.
Regarding "little kid" serving... usually when I serve underhand, I'm trying to catch someone off guard, especially if I've been serving hard all match (I don't serve that hard... 80-90mph), and my opp is just standing 5ft behind the baseline to lob it back deep.
Even if I do get away with it once, the better players I play with typically are fast enough to attack it by either:
1) re-dropping me
2) deep approach shot
Most times I'll lose the positional advantage I should have as server, so I rarely use it... Unless of course I realize my opp can't move up well to do either 1 or 2. That said, I have had someone yell at me/walk off the court when I served like that for entire game... but mainly because it was effective against him.
Regarding drug users... your perspective gives "Pusher" an entire different meaning
HaHaha omg thats mean.. I empathise with that person that walked off...Just guessing by your choice of tactics are you the kind of person that would hide the last piece of someone else's 5000 piece jigsaw puzzle???
I have a tactic to play against you should we ever meet. I'll hire a hairy,fat guy to take his shirt off to hurt your eyes when you're about to serve. And there will be nothing you can do about it because he'll be at the sidelines. While he's wobbling and jiggling away, i'll figure out the best way to win without hurting my eyes in the process.
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