Why has Nadal underachieved in hard courts Masters?

[victorcruz]

Oh look, the daily meltdown from this troll account. Get a grip kid. Learn to live a little and maybe get out of the basement and live a little.

 

[Underdog]

Sure maybe it isn’t ‘clear’ but it is definitively Agassi.

Agassi was always better on HC in youth, making USO SF only losing to peak Lendl at only 18.

let’s talk about the “hard court GOAT” competition btw. You brought it up so let’s look into it. Raf has 4 losses to Fedovic in HC Slams. USO 11, AO 12, AO 17, AO 19.

He was certainly good at the first 3 but imo he was not playing at a high, Slam winning level in AO 19.

Meanwhile Andre lost 4x to PETE, a comparable player to Fedovic in HC Slams. USO ‘90, 95, 01, 02. And don’t forget he lost to actual PEAK Fed in 3 HC Slams, USO 04/05, AO 05.

So that’s 7 times he was stopped by HC ATGs, Nadal only has 4. Andre also missed a lot of Slams, skipping the AO in some of his prime years and having bad injuries in his career, so it’s not only Nadal with that excuse.

Next. Andre is the better HC player. It’s close but it’s true.

Honestly Nadal was playing great at AO 19 prior to the final. I think he had 2012 on his mind going into the match.
I’m not saying Nadal is greater on hardcourts than Andre, but I think the spaniard has had it tougher. Also, I believe the best AO and best USO Rafas beat the respective best Andres and, to me, that says a lot.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

but he was essentially experimenting with random tactics. The 90/91 FO finals especially so, he couldn’t adjust and hit himself off the court. He 100% wins that 91 final without the delay, Courier adjusted and he didn’t. Story of his career. He just didn’t have the mentality for big matches yet.

100%. I will go to my grave thinking Agassi wins that 91 RG final without the rain delay.

Same with the 2002 USO. Agassi was unlucky to get Hewitt in the SF compared to Pete playing Sjeng Schalken of all people (this was still the era of SFs on Saturday and F on Sunday). If Pete gets Hewitt in the SF, I think there's no way Agassi loses that USO.

 

[D.Nalby12]

He actually overachieved in HC Slams. In masters - he achieved as his potential was. Don't overrate Nadal on hard court.

 

[NoleFam]

Compared to his hardcourt Slam count, yea he majorly underachieved in hardcourt Masters. 6 Slams versus 10 Masters. He won 10 out of 75 attempts. That's pretty low honestly when Djokovic won 11 out of 43 on clay but then again, this is proof you can't really compare players to Djokovic's versatility.

 

[abmk]

Nadal hasn't under-achieved at HC masters
Over-achieved at Canada.
Under-achieved at Miami.

He has over-achieved in HC slams thanks to inflation era. Should be at like 4 HC slams, not more tbh. did just fine in HC masters.

He's a worse HC player than Fed, Djokovic, Sampras, Agassi, Lendl among those who got couple of chances at AO on HC when playing well enough

Mac, Connors were also better level wise in the chances they got. Mac better peak level at USO.

 

[Fiero425]

Honestly Nadal was playing great at AO 19 prior to the final. I think he had 2012 on his mind going into the match.
I’m not saying Nadal is greater on hardcourts than Andre, but I think the spaniard has had it tougher. Also, I believe the best AO and best USO Rafas beat the respective best Andres and, to me, that says a lot.

Watching the match on You Tube now! I watched the entire tournament back in 2019 and the commentators were lauding Rafa for holding serve 60+ times in a row! I thought this final was going to be a war like 2012, but Novak was in Gawd-mode and wasn't missing anything; even changing the direction of the ball at will! He annihilated Rafa in quick order making him look BAD even though playing well himself! Rafa wa helpless! He had so many chances to win more AO, but blew it in 2017 & '18! How could he lose another final and SF to Roger so late in his career? Well he was able to vulture an Xtra 1 this season w/ Novak being deported! That's 1 way to win I guess!

 

[abmk]

Honestly Nadal was playing great at AO 19 prior to the final. I think he had 2012 on his mind going into the match.
I’m not saying Nadal is greater on hardcourts than Andre, but I think the spaniard has had it tougher. Also, I believe the best AO and best USO Rafas beat the respective best Andres and, to me, that says a lot.

Not at AO. Agassi AO 95 beats Nadal AO 09.
I'll give marginal edge level wise to Nadal of USO 10 vs Agassi of USO 94.

AO 12 was 7 years ago. Had nothing to do with it. Nadal's form pre-final over-rated in AO 19. No one played even half-decent pre-final to expose his defence.

Agassi had it tougher with prime level Sampras+Federer 9 times in HC slams

Nadal got prime or prime-ish level Djoko+fed like 6 or 7 times.

Sampras fed vs Agassi were playing at higher levels too. Worst among them was AO 95 final, which was still good. Certainly better than USO 10 Djoko or USO 13 Djoko by some distance and a little better than fed AO 12.

USO 90, USO 95, AO 00, USO 01, USO 02, USO 04, AO 05, USO 05 all out of the top drawer, nothing less. That's 8x.

Contrast to only AO 09, USO 11, AO 12 final, AO 19 final out of the top drawer. That's only 4x.

 

[TMF]

Actually Nadal has overachieved on HC. The courts have slowed down that suits perfectly for his playing style. It is often said that tennis is a game of inches, a slight change of court speed can be the difference between an outright winner and a ball that is pummeled back, not to mention great server, and net-rushers are not rewarded for their skills.

The transition to homogenized era is a huge factor in Nadal's HC achievements.

 

[jondice]

He's really only under performed at Miami. He should have at least two wins there. But he hasn't and I admit that hurts his resume.

But winning IW 3 times (and come on: We all know he wins this year without the muscle tear) and Canada 5 times are fantastic totals for anyone. ATG numbers. He's managed a Cinci win - despite admitted he hates the conditions there - and he even won Shanghai/Madrid once even though he hardly plays it. And we all know Paris 2 is a joke and shouldn't even be a masters. (Frankly those last two masters should just be cancelled.)

 

[Fiero425]

He's really only under performed at Miami. He should have at least two wins there. But he hasn't and I admit that hurts his resume.

But winning IW 3 times (and come on: We all know he wins this year without the muscle tear) and Canada 5 times are fantastic totals for anyone. ATG numbers. He's managed a Cinci win - despite admitted he hates the conditions there - and he even won Shanghai/Madrid once even though he hardly plays it. And we all know Paris 2 is a joke and shouldn't even be a masters. (Frankly those last two masters should just be cancelled.)

Paris has always been that "also-ran" Masters that gives other players outside the top echelon to win and make a move to qualify YEC in the waning weeks of the season!

 

[Rafa the King]

I believe he has done just fine. For a long time only IW and Miami were his priority, and from 2013 onwards only IW. I don’t think his performances in Cincy really warranted a title, on the other hand he definitely “deserved” to win 1-2 titles in Miami and 1 in Bercy. No more than that so I think he only underachieved by 2 Masters or so

 

[NeutralFan]

I'll be happy if he wins 2 more Hc slams and zero masters. Couldn't care less about the masters.

 

[Hitman]

Yes he has, by going 0-5 in Miami finals. Should have won it at least once.

It's like Federer underachieving on clay, with 0-8 in MC and Rome finals.

 

[Nole_King]

Ever heard of Ivan Lendl?

Quite difficult for those who were born in 90s or later ...

 

[Karma Tennis]

Masters tournaments are all about the money not about the prestige ... except for maybe some of the older Euro clay court ones like Monte Carlo.

Of course, Rafa focuses on Madrid for obvious reasons, so no surprise that he expends a lot of energy in that one. Especially as it is a lead in to Roland Garros.

Once the top guys have plenty of money ...they focus most of their energies on the big shows ... The Majors!

Any time you see them playing lead in Masters tournaments, it is because they are prepping for the Majors.

The only ones that count are the AO, RG, Wimbledon and the USO. All the others are fodder in comparison.

 

[StrongRule]

It's still an incredibly impressive achievement. Just because Nadal fans don't care about consistency doesn't mean the rest of us should feel the same.

4 USO titles are still better than 3, doesn't matter how you try to spin it.

 

[PUSB]

There are 3 Masters on Djokovic's weakest surface and yet he has 11 titles. He won every clay Masters at least twice, with a peak in Rome (12 finals / 6 titles)
Nadal had literally more than 2x more opportunities to rack up Masters on hard courts. There are 6 Masters + the WTF in 1 year

Yet despite having 7 chances/year, he has only won 9 Masters. 3 IW, 5 Canada, 1 Cincinnati and 1 Madrid (counts for Shanghaï).

Never won 3 of them (Miami, Paris, WTF). Only 1 final in Paris, 1 other final in Shanghaï after his Madrid win. Only 1 Cincinnati (0 other final) despite his success in the USO. His peak is the Canada Open and he has less titles and less finals than Djokovic in Rome.

Very telling IMO that Djokovic's absolute "worst" Masters is Monte-Carlo and he still managed to snag 2 titles and make 2 other finals. While Nadal can't even win 3 different Masters. Only 1 indoor title throughout his whole career.

How do you explain all these holes in so many different hard court 1000? Why can't he adapt his tennis to the Miami conditions like he does in IW? Why was he unable (in 16 years) to win more than 2 Masters on fast courts like Cincinnati, Shanghaï and Paris? Why 0 World Tour Finals titles in 16 attempts? Is he ever going to win one of these tournaments? Can he at least achieve ONE career Masters?

Any explanations?

So if we extend this logic to the slams Djokovic as twice the amount on his BEST surface than Fedal yet does not lead the slam race. He has double the amount of masters on his best surface but is only 2 ahead of Nadal. Federer has no masters on his best surface.
You seem to be making the argument that Djokovic is 3rd of his era overall?

 

[tennis_pro]

You misspelled "overachieved".

 

[Underdog]

Watching the match on You Tube now! I watched the entire tournament back in 2019 and the commentators were lauding Rafa for holding serve 60+ times in a row! I thought this final was going to be a war like 2012, but Novak was in Gawd-mode and wasn't missing anything; even changing the direction of the ball at will! He annihilated Rafa in quick order making him look BAD even though playing well himself! Rafa wa helpless! He had so many chances to win more AO, but blew it in 2017 & '18! How could he lose another final and SF to Roger so late in his career? Well he was able to vulture an Xtra 1 this season w/ Novak being deported! That's 1 way to win I guess!

Actually he lost injured to god-mode Cilic at AO 18. No vulture at all this year. Sure, Djokovic chose not to participate, but he faced tough matches under tough conditions and ended up facing Djokovic’s nemesis in the final and won it. Still, sure, the AO 19 final was an unbelievable performance by Nole, truly spectacular.

 

[PUSB]

Mac, Lendl, and Connors all played in an era where the AO was either skipped or played on grass. I'd say all are at the very least comparable to Nadal and very possibly better, taking into account how many HC AOs they could have possibly won.

Each also have incredible YEC accomplishments in a time where that was viewed as the 4th major. And they don't have 'Masters' titles bc there wasn't such a thing as the Masters series in the 80s, but equivalently each were dominant HC players, winning many HC tournaments that were Masters-like. Especially Lendl who was basically unbeatable on indoor hard for a good 4 years straight. He was a monster. I've also read that historians say Laver's best surface was HC, he was dominant at the Wembley indoors, as was Pancho.

But I am being nice like I said... so will leave them out officially.

Nadal has more Us Opens than Lendl. Clearly he is better on hard than Lendl.

 

[ForehandRF]

But he peaked the highest, only behind Pete.

Only if that peak is measured with the metric roulette lol

 

[NeutralFan]

Only if that peak is measured with the metric roulette lol

Nice DP son!

 

[Underdog]

Not at AO. Agassi AO 95 beats Nadal AO 09.
I'll give marginal edge level wise to Nadal of USO 10 vs Agassi of USO 94.

AO 12 was 7 years ago. Had nothing to do with it. Nadal's form pre-final over-rated in AO 19. No one played even half-decent pre-final to expose his defence.

Agassi had it tougher with prime level Sampras+Federer 9 times in HC slams

Nadal got prime or prime-ish level Djoko+fed like 6 or 7 times.

Sampras fed vs Agassi were playing at higher levels too. Worst among them was AO 95 final, which was still good. Certainly better than USO 10 Djoko or USO 13 Djoko by some distance and a little better than fed AO 12.

USO 90, USO 95, AO 00, USO 01, USO 02, USO 04, AO 05, USO 05 all out of the top drawer, nothing less. That's 8x.

Contrast to only AO 09, USO 11, AO 12 final, AO 19 final out of the top drawer. That's only 4x.

Andre may have had more matches against ATGs, but I believe Nadal’s were on the hardest side. The three Djokovic versions you just mentioned are pretty unbeatable, truly. Also, not including AO 12 SF and US 13 F is a little bias. Those were tough matches were Nadal simply outplayed the opponent making him look worse.
Not to mention matches like AO 09 SF, US 18 QF, AO 22… All of those matches happened to be played against someone

I know 19 F happened after a long time since 12 F, but I felt Nadal entered the court mentally fragile that match and this is the only explanation I can find.

Finally, I highly doubt on AO 09 Nadal losing to anyone, but that’s just bias on my side, cause that’s my favourite match all time and I’m on the young side on this forum, so my past knowledge is pretty flawed.

 

[abmk]

Andre may have had more matches against ATGs, but I believe Nadal’s were on the hardest side. The three Djokovic versions you just mentioned are pretty unbeatable, truly. Also, not including AO 12 SF and US 13 F is a little bias. Those were tough matches were Nadal simply outplayed the opponent making him look worse.
Not to mention matches like AO 09 SF, US 18 QF, AO 22… All of those matches happened to be played against someone

I know 19 F happened after a long time since 12 F, but I felt Nadal entered the court mentally fragile that match and this is the only explanation I can find.

Finally, I highly doubt on AO 09 Nadal losing to anyone, but that’s just bias on my side, cause that’s my favourite match all time and I’m on the young side on this forum, so my past knowledge is pretty flawed.

not at all unbeatable for most part.
past prime fed in USO 11 was a point away from beating 11 USO djoko. Federer was better at the USO in 04, 05. Sampras better in 90/95 finals and 01 QF. those are the versions Agassi faced off.
12 AO djoko wasn't even close to his best at AO. 08, 11, 13, 16 (SF/F) were better. federer at AO in 05 was better. AO 00 Sampras is on par. Agassi faced off vs them.

fed was significantly better in AO 04-07,09-10 than in AO 12.
good level from fed in AO 12, but nothing more. that's not a top drawer match at all.
USO 13 even worse. Djoko sprayed error for 2 sets full. choked on his service games by getting broken twice (half with UFEs) in 3rd set.

AO 09 SF vs dasco is a legit ATG match
USO 18 QF is just a little better than decent quality wise
AO 22 is just pathetic quality wise, fight not withstanding.

atleast mention AO 08 tsonga, 09 USO delpo etc. man, not stuff like USO 18, AO 22.

you don't think agassi faced off vs other good opponents? Lendl, Courier, Chang, Safin, Hewitt etc.

The explanation for AO 19 is simple. nadal had declined significantly. Ruthlessly exposed by Djokovic in prime-ish phase playing his best tennis at that time and putting him on the defence. others nadal faced in the draw played crappily making him look better than he was. none of them were able to defend off nadal's 3rd shot (shot after serve), let alone converting defence to offence.
If Djoko of AO 19 faced off vs AO 22 nadal, it could arguably be worse than the AO 19 shellacking.

AO 09 nadal is worse than the best Federer, Djokovic, Safin, Agassi, Sampras at the AO. high level, but worse than those.
Even though you are on the younger side, you should atleast see that Djokovic's best at AO clearly beats nadal's there, right?

I'd suggest you watch some matches of fed at AO in 04/05/07, agassi in 95/00, safin in AO 05 SF/F, sampras in AO 94 semi vs Courier etc.

 

[Underdog]

not at all unbeatable for most part.
past prime fed was a point away from beating 11 USO djoko. Federer was better at the USO in 04, 05. Sampras better in 90/95 finals and 01 QF.
12 AO djoko wasn't even close to his best at AO. 08, 11, 13, 16 (SF/F) were better. federer at AO in 05 was better. AO 00 Sampras is on par.

fed was significantly better in AO 04-07,09-10 than in AO 12.
that's not a top drawer match at all.
USO 13 even worse. Djoko sprayed error for 2 sets full. choked on his service games by getting broken twice (half with UFEs)

AO 09 SF is a legit ATG match
USO 18 QF is just a little better than decent
AO 22 is pathetic slam level wise

AO 09 nadal is worse than the best Federer, Djokovic, Safin, Agassi, Sampras at the AO. high level, but worse than those.

The explanation for AO 19 is simple. nadal had declined significantly. Ruthlessly exposed by Djokovic in prime-ish phase playing his best tennis and putting him on the defence. others nadal faced in the draw played crappily making him look better than he was.

I think you’re being biased against Nadal here. No hate, though.
I think you’re, strongly underestimating Nadal’s competition and level. Djokovic wasn’t unbeatable throughout the whole US 11, but his performance in the final was unbeatable. Same for AO 19, I don’t believe Nadal faced crappy competition at all. He obliterated a Tsipas who has just beaten Fed convincingly. AO 12 too, man. The level by Djokovic in the final is crazy. Crazy mental, crazy physical, crazy ball striking.
Also, a player not playing his best, especially considering how high Fed and Nole highs were, does not mean the game wasn’t ATG level. You listed so many matches for Agassi, you can’t believe he played the opponent’s best form ever in all of them.

US 18 was amazing level by Thiem. The whole match was unbelievable.
AO 22 too, man. Med started off playing very well. The same brand of tennis that took down Novak the Slam before. And Nadal was on the merit side of the win, not Med on the demerit.

Also, 09 AO Nadal has to go down as one of the best performances ever. He didn’t drop a set until back to back ATG matches. No way he’s below all those guys you mentioned.

 

[abmk]

Actually he lost injured to god-mode Cilic at AO 18. No vulture at all this year. Sure, Djokovic chose not to participate, but he faced tough matches under tough conditions and ended up facing Djokovic’s nemesis in the final and won it. Still, sure, the AO 19 final was an unbelievable performance by Nole, truly spectacular.

dude, wake up. level was sh* poor. Shapo let nadal off the hook as did Med.
The worst slam winning level since AO 02 Johansson. (for the whole slam).
the very definition of vulturing.

In which land did Med become Djoko's nemesis?
DJokovic leads him 6-4.
had crushed him in AO 21 final previously.
Med got lucky with Djokovic playing his worst slam final ever under pressure of CYGS in 21 USO final.

 

[Underdog]

dude, wake up. level was sh* poor. Shapo let nadal off the hook as did Med.
The worst slam winning level since AO 02 Johansson. (for the whole slam).
the very definition of vulturing.

In which land did Med become Djoko's nemesis?
DJokovic leads him 6-4.
had crushed him in AO 21 final previously.
Med got lucky with Djokovic playing his worst slam final ever under pressure of CYGS in 21 USO final.

I’m not saying the whole tournament run was strong, but you should consider context. First big tourney after a whole semester off. And yes, man, the final was great.
Also, yes, Medvedev is someone Djokovic has trouble against, what for Djokovic is doesn’t mean a losing h2h, of course, but Medvedev won convincingly against Nole at the USO. Saying that he beat a fragile Djokovic doesn’t do any justice whatsoever to Medvedev’s performance.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Nadal hasn't under-achieved at HC masters
Over-achieved at Canada.
Under-achieved at Miami.

He has over-achieved in HC slams thanks to inflation era. Should be at like 4 HC slams, not more tbh. did just fine in HC masters.

He's a worse HC player than Fed, Djokovic, Sampras, Agassi, Lendl among those who got couple of chances at AO on HC when playing well enough

Mac, Connors were also better level wise in the chances they got. Mac better peak level at USO.

 

[abmk]

I think you’re being biased against Nadal here. No hate, though.
I think you’re, strongly underestimating Nadal’s competition and level. Djokovic wasn’t unbeatable throughout the whole US 11, but his performance in the final was unbeatable. Same for AO 19, I don’t believe Nadal faced crappy competition at all. He obliterated a Tsipas who has just beaten Fed convincingly. AO 12 too, man. The level by Djokovic in the final is crazy. Crazy mental, crazy physical, crazy ball striking.
Also, a player not playing his best, especially considering how high Fed and Nole highs were, does not mean the game wasn’t ATG level. You listed so many matches for Agassi, you can’t believe he played the opponent’s best form ever in all of them.

US 18 was amazing level by Thiem. The whole match was unbelievable.
AO 22 too, man. Med started off playing very well. The same brand of tennis that took down Novak the Slam before. And Nadal was on the merit side of the win, not Med on the demerit.

Also, 09 AO Nadal has to go down as one of the best performances ever. He didn’t drop a set until back to back ATG matches. No way he’s below all those guys you mentioned.

djoko played better in the USO 11 semi than in the final.
he served way better in the semi than in the final (getting 28% serves unret vs fed compared to only 16% vs nadal). arguably a little better from the baseline in the final, but doesn;'t compensate for the serving.

you call djoko of USO 11 unplayable. federer, sampras are clearly better than him prime level wise at USO. they played like that at USO 90/95/01 and 04/05 respectively. agassi had to face off vs them.

tpas sh*t the bed completely vs nadal in AO 19 semi. it was his first slam semi.

only thing crazy about AO 12 djoko was his stamina, not the level.
still ATG level, but quite below several other performances. on par with Sampras of AO 00. but quite clearly lesser than fed of AO 05.

USO 18 - only amazing thing from THiem was 1st set, nothing else.
AO 22 - med collapsed like utter sh*tt. one of the 3 worst chokes of this century in a slam final along with RG 04 final and USO 20 final.

I'll repeat , Atleast mention matches like tsonga of AO 08,delpo of USO 09, man. Heck Berdych of AO 12 whom Nadal beat was significantly better than Thiem of USO 18.
I'm not being biased against nadal.

AO 09 nadal is below all of those I mentioned.You need to go and watch the matches I mentioned.
tons and tons of players have gone to the semi of a HC slam without losing a set. that's not what was impressive about Nadal in AO 09. its the b2b semi and final.
also his absolute domination vs Haas in 3R.

 

[abmk]

I’m not saying the whole tournament run was strong, but you should consider context. First big tourney after a whole semester off. And yes, man, the final was great.
Also, yes, Medvedev is someone Djokovic has trouble against, what for Djokovic is doesn’t mean a losing h2h, of course, but Medvedev won convincingly against Nole at the USO. Saying that he beat a fragile Djokovic doesn’t do any justice whatsoever to Medvedev’s performance.

Med played a little better than good final in USO 21. that's it. nothing special about it.
he played similar level in Paris 21 and djoko beat him there.

if Djoko plays anything close to what he is capable of, Med is toast.

Again getting back to AO 22, yes. first tourney after lay off. irrrlevant while evaluating actual level.
fed was in exact same position and he won AO 17 playing at a much higher level and vs much tougher competition.
I mean either of fed of AO 17/nadal of AO 17 would absolutely obliterate nadal of AO 22. it'd be a bloodbath.

 

[MichaelNadal]

AO 09 nadal is below all of those I mentioned.You need to go and watch the matches I mentioned.

 

[NeutralFan]

Med played a little better than good final in USO 21. that's it. nothing special about it.
he played similar level in Paris 21 and djoko beat him there.

if Djoko plays anything close to what he is capable of, Med is toast.

Again getting back to AO 22, yes. first tourney after lay off. irrrlevant while evaluating actual level.
fed was in exact same position and he won AO 17 playing at a much higher level and vs much tougher competition.
I mean either of fed of AO 17/nadal of AO 17 would absolutely obliterate nadal of AO 22. it'd be a bloodbath.

Son Abmk ! Ao2009 Nadal beat better Opponent than Roger ever beat for his all AOs

 

[Underdog]

djoko played better in the USO 11 semi than in the final.
he served way better in the semi than in the final (getting 28% serves unret vs fed compared to only 16% vs nadal). arguably a little better from the baseline in the final, but doesn;'t compensate for the serving.

you call djoko of USO 11 unplayable. federer, sampras are clearly better than him prime level wise at USO. they played like that at USO 90/95/01 and 04/05 respectively

tpas sh*t the bed completely vs nadal in AO 19 semi. it was his first slam semi.

only thing crazy about AO 12 djoko was his stamina, not the level.
still ATG level, but quite below several other performances. on par with Sampras of AO 00. but lesser than fed of AO 05.

USO 18 - only amazing thing from THiem was 1st set, nothing else.
AO 22 - med collapsed like utter sh*tt. one of the 3 worst chokes of this century in a slam final along with RG 04 final and USO 20 final.

I'll repeat , Atleast mention matches like tsonga of AO 08,delpo of USO 09, man.

AO 09 nadal is below all of those I mentioned.You need to go and watch the matches I mentioned.

Again, man. I’m not saying Nadal is the better player. I’m saying you’re taking credit away when credit is due.
Considering Nadal as the better returner over Federer, it’s normal the unreturned serves rate would drop. Also, the baseline level in the final is otherworldly.

Unfair to Nadal to say he send Tsipas packing convincingly because of a choke on the greek’s part. Nadal played amazing. So much so that everyone expected a great final.

I hardly believe any of those Samprases, Agassis and Safins would beat either 09 Nadal or 12 Djokovic.

Thiem played great the whole match, come one. He was in amazing form the, but was outplayed by a goat of tennis. Same for Wawrinka 13 against Nole, for example.
Med didn’t choke that hard. Again, Nadal raised his game and Med couldn’t handle it. That’s the opinion of most people within the sport.

 

[Underdog]

Med played a little better than good final in USO 21. that's it. nothing special about it.
he played similar level in Paris 21 and djoko beat him there.

if Djoko plays anything close to what he is capable of, Med is toast.

Again getting back to AO 22, yes. first tourney after lay off. irrrlevant while evaluating actual level.
fed was in exact same position and he won AO 17 playing at a much higher level and vs much tougher competition.
I mean either of fed of AO 17/nadal of AO 17 would absolutely obliterate nadal of AO 22. it'd be a bloodbath.

What are you talking about. Med played a great great US final. Yes, of course the best Novak as well as the best Nadal toast Med, but the best Med has and had a lot to say against a good Nadal/Djoko. He won the final convincingly.

As for your 17 v 22 analysis, nobody is saying otherwise, man. What’s beijg said is that Nadal had a sort of miraculous run because of the context and ended up playing an ATG final. Say what you like, but coming from 6 months injured and digging a 0-2 against the most recent HC GS champion who was playing great is nothing to look aside.

 

[abmk]

Again, man. I’m not saying Nadal is the better player. I’m saying you’re taking credit away when credit is due.
Considering Nadal as the better returner over Federer, it’s normal the unreturned serves rate would drop. Also, the baseline level in the final is otherworldly.

nope.
firstly 12% difference is huge.
fed won 22.7% of return games on HC vs top 20 in 2011
nadal won 22.6% of return games on HC vs top 20 in 2011

basically very similar.

yes, Djokovic was phenomenal from the baseline in the USO 11 final (just as he was in the semi), but it nearly wasn't enough v 11 USO fed for the match, let alone prime fed or prime Sampras.

Unfair to Nadal to say he send Tsipas packing convincingly because of a choke on the greek’s part. Nadal played amazing. So much so that everyone expected a great final.

not really. I expected djokovic to win in 4 sets tops based on his utter demolition of Pouille in the semi, but nadal played worse in the final than pre-final
man, you really need to learn to evaluate level. Tpas played utter tripe in the semi.

I hardly believe any of those Samprases, Agassis and Safins would beat either 09 Nadal or 12 Djokovic.

that's because you haven't watched.

Thiem played great the whole match, come one. He was in amazing form the, but was outplayed by a goat of tennis. Same for Wawrinka 13 against Nole, for example.
Med didn’t choke that hard. Again, Nadal raised his game and Med couldn’t handle it. That’s the opinion of most people within the sport.

Please. Djoko-Wawa AO 13 is like a 9/10 match.
Nadal-Thiem is like a 7 level wise.
they are not even remotely comparable.
not even close.
Med-Nadal AO 22 is like a 5 at best
Nadal-Med USO 19 was significantly better, like a 7/10 match.

 

[abmk]

What are you talking about. Med played a great great US final. Yes, of course the best Novak as well as the best Nadal toast Med, but the best Med has and had a lot to say against a good Nadal/Djoko. He won the final convincingly.

the only thing med did great in the USO 21 final was 1st set. other 2 sets were like between good to little better than good. just escaped getting broken in the 2nd set. 3rd set, was on the way to a choke, but djoko had played so bad to go down 2 breaks already.
Its a little better than good to very good at best, but not great.

As for your 17 v 22 analysis, nobody is saying otherwise, man. What’s beijg said is that Nadal had a sort of miraculous run because of the context and ended up playing an ATG final. Say what you like, but coming from 6 months injured and digging a 0-2 against the most recent HC GS champion who was playing great is nothing to look aside.

miraculous given context/fight, but not level wise. level wise, its bang mediocre. people criticize RG 04 final and USO 20 final for level and choking. why should AO 22 be an exception?
Mind you none of the 4 - Coria, Gaudio, Thiem, Zverev had won a slam yet.
Med had.
and med choked badly and played a absolutely mediocre final in AO 22. if you use great for that, your evaluation seriously needs help.
he played significantly better in the USO 19 final vs nadal himself. that final was a much better match.
AO 22 final was a disaster level wise. calling it an ATG is a spit on the face of quality and essence of tennis.

 

[ForehandDTL]

the only thing med did great in the final was 1st set. just escaped getting broken in the 2nd set. 3rd set, was on the way to a choke, but djoko had played so bad to go down 2 breaks already.
Its a little better than good, but not great.



miraculous given context/fight, but not level wise. level wise, its bang mediocre.
and med choked badly and played a terrible final. if you use great for that, your evaluation seriously needs help.
he played significantly better in the USO 19 final vs nadal himself

It’s amazing how your sit on your chair to type paragraphs and paragraphs all day, and all of them manage to be wrong

 

[Underdog]

nope.
firstly 12% difference is huge.
fed won 22.7% of return games on HC vs top 20 in 2011
nadal won 22.6% of return games on HC vs top 20 in 2011

basically very similar.

yes, Djokovic was phenomenal from the baseline in the USO 11 final (just as he was in the semi), but it nearly wasn't enough v 11 USO fed, let alone prime fed or prime Sampras.



not really. I expected djokovic to win in 4 sets tops based on his utter demolition of Pouille in the semi, but nadal played worse in the final than pre-final
man, you really need to learn to evaluate level. Tpas played utter tripe in the semi.



that's because you haven't watched.



Please. Djoko-Wawa AO 13 is like a 9/10 match.
Nadal-Thiem is like a 7 level wise.
they are not even remotely comparable.
not even close.
Med-Nadal AO 22 is like a 5 at best
Nadal-Med USO 19 was significantly better, like a 7/10 match.

% of return games won is not necessarily the same as unret serves, but fair enough.

Also, I think you just said prime Djokovic at US isn’t enough for prime Fed AND prime Sampras? No way.

You may have expected a 4 ser final, but at the time in 19, everybody was talking about how both semis were beatdowns and the final would be great. Not to mention you call Tsipas’ level ****, but it was not like Pouille played a good semi either, come on.

I agree with you that Djo-Waw 13 was better than Nad-Thiem 18, but it’s a hair difference and we’re talking about very different stages on the respective players careers.
The 19 Nad-Med may have had a better level by Nadal throughout the match, but 22 Med played just as good as his 19 self if not better for most part and the game was much more emotional. I do give the edge to 19 too, tho.

 

[abmk]

% of return games won is not necessarily the same as unret serves, but fair enough.

yeah, I don't thinks its possible to get that for the year.

Also, I think you just said prime Djokovic at US isn’t enough for prime Fed AND prime Sampras? No way.

well duh!
obviously. anyone watching tennis properly would tell the same.
prime fed/sampras are top 2 prime level at USO (JMac the 3rd)
djokovic falls below, as does nadal, as do agassi, lendl, connors.

You may have expected a 4 ser final, but at the time in 19, everybody was talking about how both semis were beatdowns and the final would be great. Not to mention you call Tsipas’ level ****, but it was not like Pouille played a good semi either, come on.

yeah, Pouille played sh*t as well in the semi. But djoko showed his whole range in that semi. guy had actually won USO 18, was unplayable in Shanghai 18 and YEC before the final.
His level was proven over the past few months on HC. unlike Nadal's.

I agree with you that Djo-Waw 13 was better than Nad-Thiem 18, but it’s a hair difference and we’re talking about very different stages on the respective players careers.
The 19 Nad-Med may have had a better level by Nadal throughout the match, but 22 Med played just as good as his 19 self if not better for most part and the game was much more emotional. I do give the edge to 19 too, tho.

its not even within the same galaxy.
AO 13 4R >>>> USO 18 QF
I mean either of Djoko/Stan would lose a set tops to Nadal/Thiem of USO 18 QF.

19 USO med played significantly better in the final than in AO 22 final.
he hit his fh ok in the USO 19 final, actually transitioned to the net ok, volleying ok. no dumsh*t dropshots either unlike in AO 22 final.
AO 22 final, couldn't put fhs away, dumsh*t dropshots, horrible transitioning to the net/volleying

 

[Underdog]

yeah, I don't thinks its possible to get that for the year.



well duh!
obviously. anyone watching tennis properly would tell the same.
prime fed/sampras are top 2 prime level at USO (JMac the 3rd)
djokovic falls below, as does nadal, as do agassi, lendl, connors.



yeah, Pouille played well below par as well. But djoko showed his whole range in that semi. guy had actually won USO 18, was unplayable in Shanghai 18 and YEC before the final.
His level was proven over the past few months on HC. unlike Nadal's.



its not even within the same galaxy.
AO 13 4R >>>> USO 18 QF
I mean either of Djoko/Stan would lose a set tops to Nadal/Thiem of USO 18 QF.

19 USO med played significantly better in the final than in AO 22 final.
he hit his fh ok in the USO 19 final, actually transitioned to the net ok, volleying ok. no dumsh*t dropshots either unlike in AO 22 final.
AO 22 final, couldn't put fhs away, dumsh*t dropshots, horrible transitioning to the net/volleying

No way the best form Djokovic is a clear loser against anyone on any tournament. That’s probably also true for Federer, Nadal, Sampras…

So you discredit Nadal level because of the supposed **** level of Tsi, but it’s fine that Pouille himself played poorly because Djokovic was on a good stretch of form? Come on, man. Nadal was injured. Both played great semis, but the Djoker had a clear, more than clear, edge in the final. No problem about it.

Also, you’re comparing prime Nole and Waw to 32yo Nadal. I know where your argument of 13 4R being way better comes from, but the 18 QF had so much to it, the tension, the level why not, the emotions. It was a great great match.

 

[abmk]

No way the best form Djokovic is a clear loser against anyone on any tournament. That’s probably also true for Federer, Nadal, Sampras…

There's a clear enough gap b/w prime levels of Sampras/Federer at USO vs Djokovic. It doesn't mean they would win every time, but something like 7/10 matches.

So you discredit Nadal level because of the supposed **** level of Tsi, but it’s fine that Pouille himself played poorly because Djokovic was on a good stretch of form? Come on, man. Nadal was injured. Both played great semis, but the Djoker had a clear, more than clear, edge in the final. No problem about it.

Like I said, nadal played well before the final, but wasn't tested. nor was he proven on HC in past few months unlike Djokovic.
Djokovic was at just another level athletically on HC at that time. nadal playing below par in the final made it significantly worse for himself.
Just another reminder at this stage that Nadal hasn't won a single set vs Djokovic on HC starting from Beijing 2013.

Also, you’re comparing prime Nole and Waw to 32yo Nadal. I know where your argument of 13 4R being way better comes from, but the 18 QF had so much to it, the tension, the level why not, the emotions. It was a great great match.

We were strictly talking about competition - which is only level. not the drama.
else I could be talking about agassi-baghdatis in USO 06 which had immense drama, but level wise its not worth mentioning at all.

Heck, Agassi-Blake QF in USO 05 was clearly better than Nadal-Thiem USO 18 QF level wise and had even more drama.

you were the one who started the comparision b/w prime Nole/Wawa at AO 13 and 32 yo Nadal at USO 18. they are not even remotely close level wise.

 

[ForehandDTL]

No way the best form Djokovic is a clear loser against anyone on any tournament. That’s probably also true for Federer, Nadal, Sampras…

So you discredit Nadal level because of the supposed **** level of Tsi, but it’s fine that Pouille himself played poorly because Djokovic was on a good stretch of form? Come on, man. Nadal was injured. Both played great semis, but the Djoker had a clear, more than clear, edge in the final. No problem about it.

Also, you’re comparing prime Nole and Waw to 32yo Nadal. I know where your argument of 13 4R being way better comes from, but the 18 QF had so much to it, the tension, the level why not, the emotions. It was a great great match.

Everyone knows Safin-Fed AO 2005 and Roddick-Fed WB 2004 are the only good matches in tennis history. The rest are junk

 

[Kralingen]

Nadal has more Us Opens than Lendl. Clearly he is better on hard than Lendl.

No

 

[Underdog]

There's a clear enough gap b/w prime levels of Sampras/Federer at USO vs Djokovic. It doesn't mean they would win every time, but something like 7/10 matches.



Like I said, nadal played well before the final, but wasn't tested. nor was he proven on HC in past few months unlike Djokovic.
Djokovic was at just another level athletically on HC at that time. nadal playing below par in the final made it significantly worse for himself.
Just another reminder at this stage that Nadal hasn't won a single set vs Djokovic on HC starting from Beijing 2013.



We were strictly talking about competition - which is only level. not the drama.
else I could be talking about agassi-baghdatis in USO 06 which had immense drama, but level wise its not worth mentioning at all.

Heck, Agassi-Blake QF in USO 05 was clearly better than Nadal-Thiem USO 18 QF level wise and had even more drama.

you were the one who started the comparision b/w prime Nole/Wawa at AO 13 and 32 yo Nadal at USO 18. they are not even remotely close level wise.

I think we’re mostly clashing opinions here. Apart from the Djokovic beign in better form by AO 19 and overall HCs since 2013. I obviously agree with that

 

[Underdog]

There's a clear enough gap b/w prime levels of Sampras/Federer at USO vs Djokovic. It doesn't mean they would win every time, but something like 7/10 matches.



Like I said, nadal played well before the final, but wasn't tested. nor was he proven on HC in past few months unlike Djokovic.
Djokovic was at just another level athletically on HC at that time. nadal playing below par in the final made it significantly worse for himself.
Just another reminder at this stage that Nadal hasn't won a single set vs Djokovic on HC starting from Beijing 2013.



We were strictly talking about competition - which is only level. not the drama.
else I could be talking about agassi-baghdatis in USO 06 which had immense drama, but level wise its not worth mentioning at all.

Heck, Agassi-Blake QF in USO 05 was clearly better than Nadal-Thiem USO 18 QF level wise and had even more drama.

you were the one who started the comparision b/w prime Nole/Wawa at AO 13 and 32 yo Nadal at USO 18. they are not even remotely close level wise.

Ok, just for closure: I went back and rewatched a few condensed matches.
The USO 18 QF was nothing, absolutely nothing short of spectacular. Still, the AO 13 4R is indeed a cut above, what a match. It had been a while since I last laid my eyes on it.
The exact same level Djokovic displayed at this match is why I can’t accept at all that his best level at HC is anyhow below those of Fed or Sampras (and this is coming from a Djokovic semi-hater lol). Also I still stand for his USO 11 F performance.
Also, those AO 09 and USO 10 Nadals also make the cut to not be below anyone.

 

[Pheasant]

Wait. Nadal has 10 hard court masters titles, despite having to go through the two best hard court players of all time for his entire career?

That's incredible. I didn't realize that Nadal had that many masters titles on hard courts. Nadal is even better on hard courts than I realized.

 

[abmk]

Ok, just for closure: I went back and rewatched a few condensed matches.
The USO 18 QF was nothing, absolutely nothing short of spectacular. Still, the AO 13 4R is indeed a cut above, what a match. It had been a while since I last laid my eyes on it.
The exact same level Djokovic displayed at this match is why I can’t accept at all that his best level at HC is anyhow below those of Fed or Sampras (and this is coming from a Djokovic semi-hater lol). Also I still stand for his USO 11 F performance.
Also, those AO 09 and USO 10 Nadals also make the cut to not be below anyone.

AO 13 4R wasn't even Djokovic's best level there. highlights do make it look better than it was. some spectacular rallies truly, but quite a few UFEs as well. Along with djoko getting off to a slow start and Stan slipping up in 2nd set when up 5-2.
Djoko's best is better than Sampras' best at the AO.

USO to USO is different. there's prime Sampras/Federer/Mac are clearly better.
16% unret. serves in the USO 2011 final is low. as great as his baseline game/returning was. he was better in the semi overall and still had to save MPvs vs past prime federer. prime federer obviously better than 2011 version.

You need to watch some more of prime fed/sampras/mac etc. for an actual comparision with them
not just repeat of what you've watched in the 2010s.

USO 18 QF was just good level, nothing more. Djokovic at that USO would've taken out either of them in straights most likely or tops lose one set.
delpo was playing better than either Nadal/Thiem at that USO and Djoko took him out in straight sets. (though he could've lost set2)

 

[BeatlesFan]

Rafa's won an amazing 4 USO's and that's all that matters. His legacy is completely unaffected by whether he won 20 hard court Masters or 0.

 

[Mainad]

Rafa's won an amazing 4 USO's and that's all that matters. His legacy is completely unaffected by whether he won 20 hard court Masters or 0.

He has won 6 Slams on hardcourts and is into double figures in hardcourt Masters. Can anyone seriously say he is a slouch on that surface??