Why isn't Nadal considered a "bad matchup" for Djokovic when he started out 4-14 h2h?

[JennyS]

People are always saying that Nadal's a terrible matchup for Federer and hence the 7-13 record for him. But Djokovic has a slightly worse record (7-14) and started out 4-14 vs Nadal!

Djokovic, unlike Federer has never beaten Nadal on clay (0-9). Djokovic, unlike Federer, has never beaten Nadal in a Slam (0-4). And Djokovic also lost his two grasscourt matches with Nadal (wheras Federer is 2-1 vs Nadal on grass). Obviously, people are harder on Federer since he's a 15 time Slam winner, but Federer has had more important wins over Nadal than Djokovic has.

Since Djokovic has a two handed backhand, Nadal isn't considered a "bad matchup" for him, but the guy was 4-14 vs Nadal after Madrid! Federer never got to that point (heck, he started out 5-8 vs Nadal!)

Could it be that Djokovic also suffers from the "if he sucked on clay, he'd have a winning record against Nadal" phenomena that Federer does?

Basically, the worse you do on clay, the better chance you have at a winning or close to .500 record vs Nadal.

 

[djokovicgonzalez2010]

hes won 3 n a row though

 

[JennyS]

hes won 3 n a row though

True, but Federer was a respectable 8-5 vs Nadal prior to 2008. He was also 5-3 on non clay surfaces vs Nadal during that period as well.

Djokovic piled up 3 of his wins during a period where Nadal was losing to every top 10 player not named Tsonga.

 

[djokovicgonzalez2010]

True, but Federer was a respectable 8-5 vs Nadal prior to 2008. He was also 5-3 on non clay surfaces vs Nadal during that period as well.

Djokovic piled up 3 of his wins during a period where Nadal was losing to every top 10 player not named Tsonga.

tsonga is pathetic... still, even be4 the losses were close

 

[smack that]

True, but Federer was a respectable 8-5 vs Nadal prior to 2008. He was also 5-3 on non clay surfaces vs Nadal during that period as well.

Djokovic piled up 3 of his wins during a period where Nadal was losing to every top 10 player not named Tsonga.

u mean 8-6
10 chars

 

[TMF]

Rafa is lucky to face Roger and Nole mostly on clay. If it was the opposite(hardcourt), rafa would have a losing record.

 

[kraggy]

Nadal IS a bad matchup for Djokovic - a bad matchup mentally . If you have seen Djokers matches with Nadal , you will find that when Djokers wins , it is most often a straight set win while his losses are often tightly contested matches.

Nadal is a mental giant and djoker can often be mentally suspect. For example if you watched the queens match 08 Or the epic Madrid 09 match.
, there was very little game wise that separated the two. But there is a lot that separates their mental game.

 

[Tony48]

"A bad match-up" means a bad match-up everywhere. Nadal is not a bad match-up for Djokovic everywhere.

Not anymore, at least.

 

[TMF]

"A bad match-up" means a bad match-up everywhere. Nadal is not a bad match-up for Djokovic everywhere.

Not anymore, at least.

Nole is still a better player than him on hard court. Rafa has trouble against player like Nole who hit hard, flat ball on fast surface.

 

[Tony48]

Furthermore, it seems as if Djokovic is becoming a bad match-up for Nadal on hard courts.

 

[RCizzle65]

Nole is still a better player than him on hard court. Rafa has trouble against player like Nole who hit hard, flat ball on fast surface.

Djokovic hitting flat? lol

 

[TMF]

Djokovic hitting flat? lol

LOL...if Nole's groundstrokes isn't flat, then who's really hitting hard, flat ball on the tour?

 

[crackbillionair]

Rafa is lucky to face Roger and Nole mostly on clay. If it was the opposite(hardcourt), rafa would have a losing record.

I agree with that. But in respect to Djokovic, not only were a lot of the matches on clay, but a lot were when Djokovic was still very unseasoned.

Djokovic is a far better player on hards and it wouldn't surprise me if going forward he is better on all surfaces than Rafa. I think people do not want to play Djokovic. I don't think anyone is afraid to play Nadal.

 

[norbac]

LOL...if Nole's groundstrokes isn't flat, then who's really hitting hard, flat ball on the tour?

Safin used to hit pretty flat and so does Gilles Simon. Soderling and Tsonga too in my opinion. Definitely wouldn't call Djoker a flat hitter.

 

[mtommer]

Because the only thing that gives Nole trouble is Nole when he plays Nadal whereas with Fed no matter how hard he tries or how good he plays Nadal still can give him trouble.

 

[tudwell]

I think it's because everyone knows Nadal is more talented than Djokovic, whereas most people probably think Federer is more talented than Nadal and expect him to have a winning head-to-head. And watching their matches, I don't think Nadal is a bad match-up for Djokovic. When Federer steps out on court with Nadal, he's nervous and shaky and his level of play is usually not at its best. When Djokovic steps out on court with Nadal, he comes out firing. I've seen it a dozen times - Djokovic is in poor form until he meets Nadal and then all of a sudden he's playing his best. The problem is his best just isn't good enough on clay and grass, only on hard.

 

[matchmaker]

Virtually all Nadal-Djoko matches on clay have been slugfests, where Djoko technically gave the impression to be able to beat Nadal, but often his stamina wasn't enough and typically he would throw in not so well thought dropshots at the end, enabling Nadal to clinch the win.

In Madrid however, he did little wrong.

On HC, he can manhandle Nadal.

I guess the difference with Fed is that in no match Djoko gives the impression he cannot handle Nadal's game.

True he has lost a lot, but that seemed to be more because of mental issues or lack of fitness.

Federer seems to have gametechnical problems with Nadal. Nadal is an equation he cannot solve, even on HC.

So I guess that is why people consider Djoko a bad matchup for Nadal.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Rafa is lucky to face Roger and Nole mostly on clay. If it was the opposite(hardcourt), rafa would have a losing record.

Maybe if they had never even once played on clay . . . but Fed leads Rafa 5-4, 2-2 in slams . . . it's really not that overwhelming.

 

[Spider]

It isn't rocket science, really. Federer is one of the greatest or the greatest player ever to play this sport and here you have one player from this very same era that he has problems dealing with -- this is what has everyone talking. Whether it is on clay, grass or hard isn't the issue but it is about a player taking to him even during his prime.

Djokovic could smash the hell out of Nadal, or have a more or less similar record that Federer has against him, but the story won't ever be the same. Why? When Djokovic has all the records (or even a quarter of what Fed has managed to achieve over the years) and then he has someone who often beats him, people will start talking about that situation, but until then it is all about Federer.

You don't have to be a fan of Federer to realize this.

 

[TennisFan008]

You're forgetting that Federer is a far greater player than Djokovic so you'd expect him to have a better record vs any given player unless you take how styles matchup into account. Doing this, it's clear that Nadal is a better matchup for Nole than for Roger. I mean, Fed is a much, much better HC player than Nadal, yet the H2H is tied on that surface. Novak and Nadal on the other hand are pretty much equals on HC looking at achievements, but Djokovic leads the H2H 7-3 (15-6 in sets) and the trend is bad for Rafa (2-2 in 2007, 2-1 in 2008 with Djoker winning more points and games at Beijing, and finally 3-0 in 2009. The lopsided H2H on clay is simply because Rafa is head & shoulders above the serbian.

 

[TennisFan008]

True, but Federer was a respectable 8-5 vs Nadal prior to 2008. He was also 5-3 on non clay surfaces vs Nadal during that period as well.

Djokovic piled up 3 of his wins during a period where Nadal was losing to every top 10 player not named Tsonga.

It was 6-8 and 5-2 actually (2-0 grass, 3-2 HC and 1-6 clay). Fed had a good run from wimby -06 to TMC -07 in which he was 2-0 on grass, 2-0 on hard and 1-2 on clay.

 

[joeri888]

Because Djokovic is an inferior player to Nadal, therefore it's logical he loses. Federer is a superior player to Nadal, which makes it unlogical he's looking that bad, although I still think it's exaggerated big time.

 

[AM95]

its because the natural direction in which a lefty hits is towards a righty's backhand. because nadal has such insane topspin on his balls, they expose a major weekness for Federer, as its tough for any one hander to handle high-balls..let alone ones that go 80 miles an hour and rotate 53.33 rps (i read it somehwere).

Djokovic can handle these balls alot easier because of his two-hander, which actually is his better shot. so Nadal can't really expose a weakness there, so he's stuck going down the line which is a lower percentage shot then going cross court, and djokovic's forehand is there to pummel it, given he's not having one of his "spray days"

 

[mandy01]

its because the natural direction in which a lefty hits is towards a righty's backhand. because nadal has such insane topspin on his balls, they expose a major weekness for Federer, as its tough for any one hander to handle high-balls..let alone ones that go 80 miles an hour and rotate 53.33 rps (i read it somehwere).

Djokovic can handle these balls alot easier because of his two-hander, which actually is his better shot. so Nadal can't really expose a weakness there, so he's stuck going down the line which is a lower percentage shot then going cross court, and djokovic's forehand is there to pummel it, given he's not having one of his "spray days"

well put.Though I think Nadal purposely tries to avoid the Federer forehand as well these days and goes there when he thinks he can control the point.He often tries to put Fed on the defensive.Works well.
Roger has to do an incredible amount of retrieving job against Nadal and he's not better than Nadal in this aspect atleast.

 

[namelessone]

Game-wise,Djoker isn't a good matchup for Rafa,no way jose. As other posters have said,djoker has been inching closer to Rafa on clay,their queens match(i take this into account because djoker had matured somewhat here) was very close and on HC Djoker usually takes the cake.

Nadal's best weapons are basically neutralized against djoker,who has one of the best BH in the game and isn't troubled at all by the spin and novak also hits flatter than Rafa,not to mention the fact that he has a MUCH BETTER serve. If we look at it like this,Rafa shouldn't be leading the h2h. Novak is the same brand of player as delpo,soderling in many respects,but with more touch than them but oddly enough he hasn't had major success against Rafa.

Here's why: Nadal is tougher mentally than him and he has more stamina. Djoker has problems staying in the game and simply wilts away in certain periods of the match and in the past he needed to quickly close out a match before his breathing problems(he has asthma) kicked in. Fortunately for him,he has got much tougher lately and has played 90+ games last season without too many retirements.

 

[chanee]

Nole who hits hard, flat ball on fast surface.

Djokovic is not a big hitter. You've never watched Djokovic play.

 

[viduka0101]

Rafa is lucky to face Roger and Nole mostly on clay. If it was the opposite(hardcourt), rafa would have a losing record.

it actually is the opposite since nadal and djokovic have played 10 times on hard and 12 in total on non-clay surfaces which is more than 9 on clay either way
i'm just wondering why couldn't you go to the atp website and check the stats instead of making stuff up?

also
as someone else said before , if nadal and federer never played on clay the record would be 5-4 and 2-2 in slam finals which isn't as loopsided as 13-7

 

[viduka0101]

i agree that is kinda strange that nadal isn't considered a bad matchup for djokovic just by lookin at the H2H but i think it's been pretty obvious for quite some time that it's the opposite(IMO on all surfaces,not just hard courts), that nole is a bad matchup for nadal and it's just that nadal manages to find a way to beat him most of the time

 

[JennyS]

it actually is the opposite since nadal and djokovic have played 10 times on hard and 12 in total on non-clay surfaces which is more than 9 on clay either way
i'm just wondering why couldn't you go to the atp website and check the stats instead of making stuff up?

also
as someone else said before , if nadal and federer never played on clay the record would be 5-4 and 2-2 in slam finals which isn't as loopsided as 13-7

I am 100% certain that Nadal racking up the claycourt match victories translated to his Wimbledon and/or Australian Open victories over Federer.

Without the frustrating losses like Rome 2006, Hamburg 2008, etc, Federer might be more confident mentally against Nadal. Nadal, on the other hand, might not have had as much confidence.

 

[viduka0101]

I am 100% certain that Nadal racking up the claycourt match victories translated to his Wimbledon and/or Australian Open victories over Federer.

Without the frustrating losses like Rome 2006, Hamburg 2008, etc, Federer might be more confident mentally against Nadal. Nadal, on the other hand, might not have had as much confidence.

possibly but i don't think so since those were very close matches(wimbledon/AO)
and i'm not sure what you're point is
that it's not fair that Federer isn't as mentaly strong as Nadal?
that it's not fair the clay season comes right before wimbledon?:neutral:

 

[TMF]

it actually is the opposite since nadal and djokovic have played 10 times on hard and 12 in total on non-clay surfaces which is more than 9 on clay either way
i'm just wondering why couldn't you go to the atp website and check the stats instead of making stuff up?

also
as someone else said before , if nadal and federer never played on clay the record would be 5-4 and 2-2 in slam finals which isn't as loopsided as 13-7

No I didn't make it up b/c you didn't get it. I was comparing clay vs. hardcourt, where rafa is better on clay while Roger/Nole is better on hardcourt. Like i said....if they meet more time on hardcourt, rafa would have a negative record.

They were 5-4, but Roger thrives in summer hardcourt. How many times did rafa met roger during the US Open Series? How many?

 

[World Beater]

bad matchup doesnt make sense. since most ppl acknowledge that nadal is a better player than djokovic.

nadal is bad matchup for federer because federer has better results than rafa.

 

[CocaCola]

"A bad match-up" means a bad match-up everywhere. Nadal is not a bad match-up for Djokovic everywhere.

Not anymore, at least.

True.
10char

 

[viduka0101]

No I didn't make it up b/c you didn't get it. I was comparing clay vs. hardcourt, where rafa is better on clay while Roger/Nole is better on hardcourt. Like i said....if they meet more time on hardcourt, rafa would have a negative record.

They were 5-4, but Roger thrives in summer hardcourt. How many times did rafa met roger during the US Open Series? How many?

yeah, probably but this is different from what you posted earlier

on the last part
it may not be "fair" that they haven't met more in the second part of the season but IMO federer is a much more consistent player than nadal and he play great tennis all year long so that shouldn't be a black spot on their H2H

also, why are you so certain that federer would run over nadal if they met more in the later part of the seaon

 

[TMF]

yeah, probably but this is deiiferent from what you posted earlier

on the last part
it may not be "fair" that they haven't met more in the second part of the season but IMO federer is a much more consistent player than nadal and he play great tennis all year long so that shouldn't be a black spot on their H2H

also, why are you so certain that federer would run over nadal if they met more in the later part of the seaon

And this is why it's not a knock on Roger. Tennis is play full year but rafa avoid Fed since he isn't good enough to handle all surfaces.

Roger is a better hc court players and his results at the US Open Series are head and shoulder above everyone. And other players proved that they can beat rafa. My take here is Roger would beat rafa more often given a chance.