Why was Wilander so good at Cincinnati?

[buscemi]

From 1983-1988, Wilander made 5 Cincinnati finals, winning 4 of them. Some of the players he beat included Lendl, McEnroe, Connors x 2, Edberg x 3, and Jarryd. The one final he lost during this period was to Becker in 1985, soon after he had won Wimbledon. Even during his slump year in 1989, Wilander breezed through 4 straight set matches before losing to Edberg in the SF, 7-6, 7-6.

So Wilander won 4 Cincinnati titles, and only one other player in the Open Era -- Federer -- won more than 3.

So, my question is "why"?

By far Mats's best surface was clay, where he won 20 titles. OTOH, he only won 9 hard court titles, meaning that nearly half 4/9 of his hard court titles came at Cincinnati. Of course, other than being known here as "The Real Slam," Cincinnati is known for being a very fast hard court, not necessarily the best surface for Wilander, although of course he was fairly good across surfaces.

So, does anyone have anyone have any thought on what made Mats so good at Cincinnati?

 

[thrust]

From 1983-1988, Wilander made 5 Cincinnati finals, winning 4 of them. Some of the players he beat included Lendl, McEnroe, Connors x 2, Edberg x 3, and Jarryd. The one final he lost during this period was to Becker in 1985, soon after he had won Wimbledon. Even during his slump year in 1989, Wilander breezed through 4 straight set matches before losing to Edberg in the SF, 7-6, 7-6.

So Wilander won 4 Cincinnati titles, and only one other player in the Open Era -- Federer -- won more than 3.

So, my question is "why"?

By far Mats's best surface was clay, where he won 20 titles. OTOH, he only won 9 hard court titles,P meaning that nearly half 4/9 of his hard court titles came at Cincinnati. Of course, other than being known here as "The Real Slam," Cincinnati is known for being a very fast hard court, not necessarily the best surface for Wilander, although of course he was fairly good across surfaces.

So, does anyone have anyone have any thought on what made Mats so good at Cincinnati?

Perhaps the courts were not quite as fast as they were later

 

[sandy mayer]

Perhaps the courts were not quite as fast as they were later

I think the court was pretty fast actually. This thread is a good question. I don't know the answer but has it anything to do with the time of year and the heat in August? Wilander had plenty of stamina.

 

[ollinger]

Some say he ate a lot of that Cincy chili when he was there. Served over spaghetti and topped with a mountain of grated cheddar (as well as onions and beans if you want it), Mats claimed that it was a source of energy unlike anything he could find elsewhere.

 

[HBK4life]

Heat.
Fitness.

 

[buscemi]

Perhaps the courts were not quite as fast as they were later

I was wondering that, too, but the other winners from 1981-1988 were McEnroe, Lendl, Becker, and Edberg, which would be pretty consistent with it being fast.

 

[buscemi]

I think the court was pretty fast actually. This thread is a good question. I don't know the answer but has it anything to do with the time of year and the heat in August? Wilander had plenty of stamina.

Good point, but wouldn't that make him even better at the U.S. Open w/B05. Of course, he was good at Flushing Meadows, with one title and another final, but he was dominant at Cincinnati.

 

[buscemi]

Some say he ate a lot of that Cincy chili when he was there. Served over spaghetti and topped with a mountain of grated cheddar (as well as onions and beans if you want it), Mats claimed that it was a source of energy unlike anything he could find elsewhere.

I hope this is not tongue in cheek b/c that would be absolutely amazing.

 

[jrepac]

Some say he ate a lot of that Cincy chili when he was there. Served over spaghetti and topped with a mountain of grated cheddar (as well as onions and beans if you want it), Mats claimed that it was a source of energy unlike anything he could find elsewhere.

Seriously? Mats always did well in Cincy....not so much at USO, which was always a little odd. Maybe Cincy was a bit slower??

 

[MissileBackHand99]

Just b/c a player has a "favorite surface" (which for fans equates to surface they won the most titles on), it doesn't mean they're mediocre on other surfaces. I think the humid August conditions and the speed of the courts for Wilander. He did win the USO and Aussie Opens on HC (in two fantastic finals). And even the USO F in '87 was a 4 hour, 45 minute dogfight for 4 sets with Lendl. Point is, Wilander did well on faster surfaces too

 

[netlets]

He won at least one AO on grass - had a very effective slice

 

[Torben]

I think his versatility as a player helped him a lot. He could stay at the back and rally all day or come in on a short ball and put away a volley.

He had excellent court positioning and was rarely caught out of place. He was a master tactician and had a game plan for his matches. It was about executing that plan and he did that more often than not.

 

[Torben]

He won at least one AO on grass - had a very effective slice

Yes so true.

The slice backhand was very effective.

 

[andreh]

Maybe it was more a "Swede" thing than a "Wilander" thing... Edberg also won several times and reached several finals. It's the tournament Edberg won to seize the no. spot in 1990.

 

[buscemi]

Just b/c a player has a "favorite surface" (which for fans equates to surface they won the most titles on), it doesn't mean they're mediocre on other surfaces. I think the humid August conditions and the speed of the courts for Wilander. He did win the USO and Aussie Opens on HC (in two fantastic finals). And even the USO F in '87 was a 4 hour, 45 minute dogfight for 4 sets with Lendl. Point is, Wilander did well on faster surfaces too

Yeah, I get this, but there's doing well, and then there's having the second best results at one of the biggest non-Major events.

Wilander won 9 hard courts titles in his career: 1 U.S. Open, 1 Australian Open, 1 Lipton, 1 Stockholm, and 1 Itaparica (a smaller event he won in 1990). And then, of course, 4 Cincinnati titles.

So, sure, Wilander could win on hard courts, but he didn't win multiple titles at any hard court event, except Cincinnati where he won four. There was definitely something special about the event and his game.

 

[jrepac]

Just b/c a player has a "favorite surface" (which for fans equates to surface they won the most titles on), it doesn't mean they're mediocre on other surfaces. I think the humid August conditions and the speed of the courts for Wilander. He did win the USO and Aussie Opens on HC (in two fantastic finals). And even the USO F in '87 was a 4 hour, 45 minute dogfight for 4 sets with Lendl. Point is, Wilander did well on faster surfaces too

Wilander, like other GOAT baseliners, could play quite well on all surfaces. He too, one a GS on each and every surface, beating Mac at the near peak of his grass court powers.
He did seem quite strong at the Cincy event, but that didn't quite carry through to the USO

 

[jrepac]

He won at least one AO on grass - had a very effective slice

twice!

 

[ibbi]

But it wasn't especially fast at all, the US Open was faster then, guaranteed. The humidity probably added to that too. Guys like Mac, Boris and Edberg, Sampras even, did well to win it. I know the last 20 years it has seemed faster, the absolute weapons they play with now may factor plenty into that, I don't know, but for two decades between its switching to hard courts and the homogenization of tennis you'd find clay court guys winning that tournament as often as not.

 

[buscemi]

But it wasn't especially fast at all, the US Open was faster then, guaranteed. The humidity probably added to that too. Guys like Mac, Boris and Edberg, Sampras even, did well to win it. I know the last 20 years it has seemed faster, the absolute weapons they play with now may factor plenty into that, I don't know, but for two decades between its switching to hard courts and the homogenization of tennis you'd find clay court guys winning that tournament as often as not.

Looks like they changed from Har-Tru clay to hardcourt (DecoTurf II) in 1979. In the first 20 years after the change, the winners were:

1979: Peter Fleming
1980: Harold Solomon
1981: John McEnroe
1982: Ivan Lendl
1983: Mats Wilander
1984: Mats Wilander
1985: Boris Becker
1986: Mats Wilander
1987: Stefan Edberg
1988: Mats Wilander
1989: Brad Gilbert
1990: Stefan Edberg
1991: Guy Forget
1992: Pete Sampras
1993: Michael Chang
1994: Michael Chang
1995: Andre Agassi
1996: Andre Agassi
1997: Pete Sampras
1998: Pat Rafter
1999: Pete Sampras

 

[ibbi]

Looks like they changed from Har-Tru clay to hardcourt (DecoTurf II) in 1979. In the first 20 years after the change, the winners were:

1979: Peter Fleming
1980: Harold Solomon
1981: John McEnroe
1982: Ivan Lendl
1983: Mats Wilander
1984: Mats Wilander
1985: Boris Becker
1986: Mats Wilander
1987: Stefan Edberg
1988: Mats Wilander
1989: Brad Gilbert
1990: Stefan Edberg
1991: Guy Forget
1992: Pete Sampras
1993: Michael Chang
1994: Michael Chang
1995: Andre Agassi
1996: Andre Agassi
1997: Pete Sampras
1998: Pat Rafter
1999: Pete Sampras

Pretty sure Guga and Moya won it too, right? give it a little more than two decades. No biggie.

 

[jrepac]

But it wasn't especially fast at all, the US Open was faster then, guaranteed. The humidity probably added to that too. Guys like Mac, Boris and Edberg, Sampras even, did well to win it. I know the last 20 years it has seemed faster, the absolute weapons they play with now may factor plenty into that, I don't know, but for two decades between its switching to hard courts and the homogenization of tennis you'd find clay court guys winning that tournament as often as not.

You mean Cincy's courts? I assumed it was Decoturf...but could have been slower than USO depending on the exact mix, I suppose. Certainly was humid there, but USO could be too

 

[jrepac]

Skyline Chili

Yum. Been ages since I had that

 

[jrepac]

Looks like they changed from Har-Tru clay to hardcourt (DecoTurf II) in 1979. In the first 20 years after the change, the winners were:

1979: Peter Fleming
1980: Harold Solomon
1981: John McEnroe
1982: Ivan Lendl
1983: Mats Wilander
1984: Mats Wilander
1985: Boris Becker
1986: Mats Wilander
1987: Stefan Edberg
1988: Mats Wilander
1989: Brad Gilbert
1990: Stefan Edberg
1991: Guy Forget
1992: Pete Sampras
1993: Michael Chang
1994: Michael Chang
1995: Andre Agassi
1996: Andre Agassi
1997: Pete Sampras
1998: Pat Rafter
1999: Pete Sampras

So, if I examine this list vs. US Championship, I see only 2 times when the Cincy winner won USO (81, 88).
Not very indicative/predictive!

 

[ibbi]

You mean Cincy's courts? I assumed it was Decoturf...but could have been slower than USO depending on the exact mix, I suppose. Certainly was humid there, but USO could be too

Yep. I forget the exact type. I think it was Decoturf II, whatever that means. I'm just going off watching the matches. The ones I've seen had a lot of baseline tennis, more than you'd generally see at US Open in the period. The finals were played basically exclusively during the day too, which makes rallying a lot easier.

 

[bluetrain4]

Even if his best surface was clay, he was very good on hardcourts. I don't think any speed of court really bothered him. Wimbledon, I'd say it was the low and erratic bounces more than the speed. Why did he win 4 Cincy titles? He had the game for it and it just worked out that way. He won a couple times and probably felt confident there. He was truly a great all-court player. It's easy to think "clay master" thus baseline play, grinding, passing shots. But in addition to his stellar baseline play, Wilander always moved forward a fair amount, even on clay. And he had his backhand slice to mix things up and add another element.

 

[buscemi]

Yep. I forget the exact type. I think it was Decoturf II, whatever that means. I'm just going off watching the matches. The ones I've seen had a lot of baseline tennis, more than you'd generally see at US Open in the period. The finals were played basically exclusively during the day too, which makes rallying a lot easier.

Here are some highlights of the 1987 final between Becker and Edberg (the one year between 1983-1988 when Wilander wasn't in the final):

 

[dryeagle]

Mats loves middle America. Calm and laid back atmosphere of Cincy / Indy tournaments back in the day. Players loved them and consistently rated them among the best. Fit Mats well. Didn’t he retire to Montana or Idaho?

 

[bluetrain4]

Mats loves middle America. Calm and laid back atmosphere of Cincy / Indy tournaments back in the day. Players loved them and consistently rated them among the best. Fit Mats well. Didn’t he retire to Montana or Idaho?

He did retire to Idaho. if I remember correctly it was because of some health issue with his son who needed a specific climate. That said, I'm sure that climate could also be found elsewhere, so maybe he also just liked Idaho.

 

[King_olaf_the_hairy]

He did retire to Idaho. if I remember correctly it was because of some health issue with his son who needed a specific climate. That said, I'm sure that climate could also be found elsewhere, so maybe he also just liked Idaho.

He sold that property in 2020. Seven bedroom ranch set in 80+ acres, went for about $4.2 million. Not a bad little shack...

Luxury Ranch Sold! - Young & Bates - Sun Valley

We are ecstatic to announce the closing of another magnificent property. Set on over 80 acres amidst the Pioneer Mountains, this European-inspired family compound features expansive views and plenty of space to roam without ever leaving your property. With a grand main residence with no detail...

younggroupsunvalley.com

I couldn't tell you off-hand where he moved to though. He might well have stayed in Idaho.

 

[Waves]

Nice observation OP. Wilander was a poor man’s Djokovic. He had energy to burn, was quick and a wall. Not surprising he did well there under adverse conditions of the heat, and on the hard court. Also being BO3, he could get a jump on people, and then just bore them to dea…er, wear them out with defence.

 

[Torben]

You mean Cincy's courts? I assumed it was Decoturf...but could have been slower than USO depending on the exact mix, I suppose. Certainly was humid there, but USO could be too

I was just thinking about the tournament back in the seventies when it was on clay. It’s changed venue but the humidity must’ve caused some very heavy conditions on the clay back then.

I guess guys like Harold Solomon snd Eddie Dibbs had a great time on those courts in those conditions.