stormholloway
Legend
Roddick and Blake could play each other on clay and both lose. This is going to be a slaughter.
Looking ahead to USA vs. Spain, should Andy and James really get the call?
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welcome2petrkordaland
Professional
i've read thru this whole thread and i'm still thinking that blake's flat power game with really only one gear and his reluctance to hit 3/4 speed until he gets an opening (despite having great strokes both bh and fh) will be a recipe for a straight set loss to a Spaniard on clay,esp. nadal, ferrer, ferrero, & robredo.
And poor Andy who's playing unbelievable, esp. on his beloved superfast, indoor hard courts simply doesn't have the endurance for a 3 of 5 match with multiple 7 or 8 stroke rallies, much less the lateral movement defensively. Plus, just a reminder to people who forgot or haven't played on clay, smart service returners (esp. the Spaniards) back up way behind the baseline and actually take big cuts at service returns. there is no way in @#$ that roddick will be able to serve and volley on clay against Spain. And his serve will be totally neutralized by the clay. this is spain, folks; roddick and blake will lose both singles rubbers; let's just hope they don't get anyone pregnant.
So overall, Roddick, like Blake, will lose for sure in a singles rubber against even a nadalless Spain on clay. nadal will crush either one, obviously 2, 2, and 2.
Who else, one might ask, could replace these guys? IDK, but I just saw that Young won his 1st match in Houston and Ginepri lost his 1st match.
And poor Andy who's playing unbelievable, esp. on his beloved superfast, indoor hard courts simply doesn't have the endurance for a 3 of 5 match with multiple 7 or 8 stroke rallies, much less the lateral movement defensively. Plus, just a reminder to people who forgot or haven't played on clay, smart service returners (esp. the Spaniards) back up way behind the baseline and actually take big cuts at service returns. there is no way in @#$ that roddick will be able to serve and volley on clay against Spain. And his serve will be totally neutralized by the clay. this is spain, folks; roddick and blake will lose both singles rubbers; let's just hope they don't get anyone pregnant.
So overall, Roddick, like Blake, will lose for sure in a singles rubber against even a nadalless Spain on clay. nadal will crush either one, obviously 2, 2, and 2.
Who else, one might ask, could replace these guys? IDK, but I just saw that Young won his 1st match in Houston and Ginepri lost his 1st match.
flyer
Hall of Fame
just curious, whats your logic behind this thinkign?
welcome2petrkordaland
Professional
anything can happen, but ferrer beat andy on hard court last year, not a good sign for andy on clay. and ferrer is as fast as nadal, which is sick and spells no winners for andy on clay IMHO.
Nadal_Freak
Banned
Ferrer is awesome on clay. He just has a mental block against Federer. Hopefully he changes that around. Roddick can't beat anyone of the top 10 dirtballers. Especially on the clay that Spain is going to use.
finding a way
I think its possible. Even though Roddick has struggled against Ferrer in the past but the way he has been playing lately and in Davis Cup, anything is possible. I know this match up will be tough for the US but I feel they will find a way to win this.
I think its possible. Even though Roddick has struggled against Ferrer in the past but the way he has been playing lately and in Davis Cup, anything is possible. I know this match up will be tough for the US but I feel they will find a way to win this.
Fedace
Banned
Andy can serve huge when he is confident. and Ferrer has problem with andy's serve, even on clay courts. so i expect andy to hold serve 99% of the time. and Ferrer loses confidence when he is getting pushed around from back court. so andy wins.
Nadal_Freak
Banned
I think the fast hardcourts of USA warped your mind. I think you will be surprised how much slower the surface in Spain will be and how different a slippery surface will effect Roddick's game. Ferrer is use to the slippery surface as he grew up on it. No one is unbreakable on clay. Even Sampras.
thalivest
Banned
Andy has trouble holding serve vs Ferrer on hard courts, yet you think he will hold 99% of the time on clay!? Dream on. Also where do you get this warped idea of "Andy Roddick", yes remember this is Andy Roddick here, pushing Ferrer around from the back court, on clay no less.
flyer
Hall of Fame
idk man, i'd just have to disagree here, granted everybody is going to have trouble with andy's serve to an extent but ferrer is one of the very top returners in the game, Fed himself said he has the best second serve return in the game, and on clay which greatly neutralizes Roddick's serve all ferrer would have o do is get the ball back and he would almost certainly win the point, i know you exaggerating that 99% thing but lemme tell you you are way over confident in his serve against ferrer on clay
zagor
Bionic Poster
The last time they play on medium speed indoor hardcourt(TMC) I didn't see Ferrer having any trouble with Roddick's serve at all as he broke him 4 times.
So I definitely don't see Andy's serve giving Ferrer much problem on clay and during his career Roddick has lost to much worse claycourters than Ferrer.Also in my opinon a serve like Federer's is much less neutralized on clay then Andy's serve which relies on overwhelming pace and power rather then placement and disguise.
M
Morrissey
Guest
Looking at your posts you talk with the logic of a 5 yr old. Ferrer has no problem whatsoever returning Roddick's serve, he has a winning record against him and all were on hardcourt. Ferrer has one of the best return of serve percentages on tour and he returns Andy's serve often. And on clay he'll get almost all the serves back. Ferrer is actually a bad matchup for Roddick, he absorbs his power, returns his serve and makes him rally a lot. All bad things for Andy. Plus it will be on clay which will onlly make this matchup even worse for Andy. Honestly speaking, I predict the US only take 4 sets the entire weekend. 3 of those 4 sets coming from the lone win in the doubles. This is it for the US, the road ends in Spain.
Nadal_Freak
Banned
Poor USA team fans that will try anything to think of a way that USA can actually have a chance on clay against Spain. I think Roddick and Blake should not be chosen to avoid the embarrassment of what's coming forward if Nadal and Ferrer are playing.
So you live in the US and you support Spain?
Fedace
Banned
OK OK, i forgot about that one. If that is the case, then lets all hope, Nadal and Ferrer come down with influenza the night before the match and pull out...:-?
M
Morrissey
Guest
I hope they play because I wanna see Nadal demolish their butts all over the red dirt, it'll be the only chance Nadal gets to play those guys on clay because they suck so hard on it they never go far enough to even face Nadal in a tournament. Nadal always has to go far on his worst surface to even get to play them and even beat them on their favorite surface too. It's time Nadal got the chance to play them on his surface. I'm gonna savor every minute of that trashing and the look on PMac's face as they get slaughtered. I can't stand a single member of that US Davis Cup team.
M
Morrissey
Guest
Then you could always put Moya, Ferrero and even Robredo. Spain would most likely even win that. Americans suck that bad on clay.
slice bh compliment
G.O.A.T.
That was funny, man. I hope you're wrong, but you definitely got me laughing.
Fedace
Banned
I really think US team should bring in Todd Martin for this tie. The reason is this. Todd Martin used to play great on clay courts, had some awsome results on warm up tournaments prior to french open in the past, when he was still playing that is. so Bring todd in and have him coach the guys before the davis cup starts. I think this should give US a better chance to win. Todd used to be so good, that pat Macenroe used to call him Todd Martinez.
M
Morrissey
Guest
So what? Now we have to root for them? I choose to root for who I want, I'm not predisposed to cheer for anyone because of where I'm from. Same for Nadal Freak.
M
Morrissey
Guest
Todd Martin? Did he win any clay Masters Series or better yet a French Open? Todd Martin was no clay master. If you wanted to have someone to represent it better I would put Courier, but it doesn't matter. Roddick and Blake will always suck on clay, their mindset, strategy and their games don't work on clay. Simple as that, so stop trying to "figure it out". This is over. America has no chance of beating Spain on clay in Spain. Do you understand?
zagor
Bionic Poster
If Nadal shows up USA doesn't stand a chance in hell,I don't care it they bring Courier,Chang and Agassi alltogether to prepare Roddick and Blake for clay.If Nadal doens't show up,Spain is still the huge favourite but USA atleast has some very small chance of pulling an upset.Either way I would be very surprised if Spain doesn't take this one and convincingly as well.
M
Morrissey
Guest
I can't believe there's this much discussion about this tie, this shouldn't even be on people's minds because this one is as close to a foregone conclusion that there can be. Let's talk Russia vs Argentina. Now that's going to be competitive. The US suck balls on clay and suck it hard.
M
Morrissey
Guest
If there's ever a time to bet your house on anything it would be on Spain beating the US on clay. I'm just curious to see Nadal play Roddick and Blake on te red dirt. I just wonder how much Roddick will play on clay this Spring. Maybe more than 3 matches this time?
slice bh compliment
G.O.A.T.
Of course Ferru is tough as nails. And Rafa is the undiputed heavyweight champion of the world on clay. And the rest of the Spanish team is close to unbeatable on clay.
The US winning two rubbers would be an upset, and 3 would be cause for celebration.
Is it possible?
Well...
Todd Marrrteen won Barcelona once, I think. Maybe it was Estoril, but it was considered an acccomplishment.
Flip won a large claycourt title. So did Krajicek.
So did Pete. Henman got the the semis at RG. So did Rafter.
Pete once dominated a Davis Cup final on heavily watered clay.
RF won Hamburg.
McEnroe won the Italian Open once and ''coulda been'' about ten minutes from the Roland Garros title in 84 against Lendl (who ended up being an all-time great on clay as well as hard courts).
Yannick Noah won RG playing all-court attacking tennis all seven matches.
A huge-server with an attacking game, tempered with patience, quality approaching and precise angled volleys can do well on clay.
I think Roddick, a grinder at heart, can hold and get into TB's with the best of 'em, especially if he embraces the approach and voley game. Then who knows? Maybe an upset or two. And with Blake, you never know. This is the beauty of Davis Cup. Greatest thing in tennis.
ANd also, we Americans root for the underdog. It's in our sporting DNA you know. Plus, this is one of the few times all of us actually root for Roddick. Kind of different. Think I'm going to go to Spain instead of the Open this September.
The US winning two rubbers would be an upset, and 3 would be cause for celebration.
Is it possible?
Well...
Todd Marrrteen won Barcelona once, I think. Maybe it was Estoril, but it was considered an acccomplishment.
Flip won a large claycourt title. So did Krajicek.
So did Pete. Henman got the the semis at RG. So did Rafter.
Pete once dominated a Davis Cup final on heavily watered clay.
RF won Hamburg.
McEnroe won the Italian Open once and ''coulda been'' about ten minutes from the Roland Garros title in 84 against Lendl (who ended up being an all-time great on clay as well as hard courts).
Yannick Noah won RG playing all-court attacking tennis all seven matches.
A huge-server with an attacking game, tempered with patience, quality approaching and precise angled volleys can do well on clay.
I think Roddick, a grinder at heart, can hold and get into TB's with the best of 'em, especially if he embraces the approach and voley game. Then who knows? Maybe an upset or two. And with Blake, you never know. This is the beauty of Davis Cup. Greatest thing in tennis.
ANd also, we Americans root for the underdog. It's in our sporting DNA you know. Plus, this is one of the few times all of us actually root for Roddick. Kind of different. Think I'm going to go to Spain instead of the Open this September.
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M
Morrissey
Guest
Roddick has nothing that Martin, Sampras may have had for brief moments on clay. Imagine Roddick getting into 15-20 shot rallies on a regular basis, that will be only the first set. He gets into 8-10 shot rallies on hardcourt with Ferrer, imagine how long on clay. Blake just getting past a 5 shot rally is nothing short of a miracle, on clay he's gonna come close to 100 unforced errors, if the match even lasts long enough. Nadal and Ferrer on clay is something like having Federer and Djokovic on hardcourt. I think the Americans know deep down this one's over. They're gonna go because they're defending champs and will enjoy the beautiful weather, great food in Spain. They're practically gonna hand over the baton to Spain because I would think they'd be the favorites to win the Davis Cup title. I would think that Roddick and Blake have already had nightmares of this upcoming tie. This is a worst case scenario realized. I wonder if they're gonna pull out a week before it happens? Maybe Roddick needs rest after another heartbreaking loss at the US Open. Maybe Blake is too distraught after another tough 5 set loss. In the end PMac is gonna have to put Fish and Querrey on the flight to Spain.
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slice bh compliment
G.O.A.T.
As a fan, and in terms of results, I think you are probably right.
But trust me, man, THAT is NOT how professional athletes think.
M
Morrissey
Guest
Unless you're Gasquet
welcome2petrkordaland
Professional
yeah, richard's fast becoming a wuss in my book, not just b/c of the DC but everything about his ridiculous talent, inconsistent results profile. gasquet=safin?
M
Morrissey
Guest
Safin has grit, he's not a p*ssy. He's just too busy chasing it or thinking about it. But I don't think Safin would back down from playing anyone, no matter how bad he's playing. And at least Safin won 2 slams, multiple MS. Gasquet has none of those things. It's funny because he fits the stereotype of a Frenchman. At least French history of cowardice.
GOD_BLESS_RAFA
Semi-Pro
How about this : USA can ask Courrier to come back to play Brugera in Davis Cup ...LOL
Rabbit
G.O.A.T.
In 1995, Sampras was a 1R loser at the French Open. In Davis Cup in 1995, Sampras beat Kafelnikov who was a semi-finalist at the French that year losing to the eventual champion, Muster. Sampras did make the semis the next year, 1996, losing to Kafelnikov in straight sets 6-7, 0-6, 2-6 hardly a stirring indictment of Sampras' clay court prowess. I think in his career, Sampras had exactly one more career clay cour title than Boris Becker who retired with zero.
IF Roddick continues playing and improving as he has, wins over Joker, Federer, Nads, and he has a good summer and IF Blake will finally figure out that he doesn't have to hit every ball as hard as he can and learns the lesson Jim Courier learned; the other guy can miss....well the US might just have a slim chance at a 3/2 upset in Spain.
Hey, we're due we haven't beaten Spain on dirt since the Spanish/American War...
M
Morrissey
Guest
They'll be playing 2 guys with even more heart than them, and also more consistency and stamina than them as well.
M
Morrissey
Guest
You do realize how silly that sounds right? We're talking about beating Nadal and Ferrer on clay. Hoping isn't going to make them better all of a sudden on clay. Let alone be good on clay, but then dealing with juggernauts in Nadal and Ferrer. I'm wondering if the Bryans wil even win their match. They've not been so good this year.
Andy,James got lucky last year because instead of playing Argentina;they got Sweden instead and thrashed them and got a Safin-less-russian team and a choking Youzhny and got lucky again when Tsonga got injured.Mathieu has been a choker all his life and will die a choker.Gasquet's got knee tendinitis and punked out of this tie due to clay season starting next week for him while Andy will be on vacation in Rome and in Paris shopping;walking around until Wimbledon with his fiance :lol:
Ferrer thrashed Roddick,twice on hard courts and Nadal has beaten Blake on his favorite hard court surface.
Roddick,Blake should remember what playing in Spain on red clay feels like,and that Nadal and Ferrer imo have improved as players and will thrashed Roddick;no matter how hot Andy is these days and Blake into oblivion:lol:
The only point the US might;yes might will come from Mike and bob
a bunch of 2nd tier dirtballers like Melzers and Koubek ain't Nadal,Ferrer,Moya,Ferrero or even Almagro
if anyone thinks Roddick,Blake;Fish or whomever will be a healthy Spanish team is delusional at best:lol:
luck ends here guys
Ferrer thrashed Roddick,twice on hard courts and Nadal has beaten Blake on his favorite hard court surface.
Roddick,Blake should remember what playing in Spain on red clay feels like,and that Nadal and Ferrer imo have improved as players and will thrashed Roddick;no matter how hot Andy is these days and Blake into oblivion:lol:
The only point the US might;yes might will come from Mike and bob
a bunch of 2nd tier dirtballers like Melzers and Koubek ain't Nadal,Ferrer,Moya,Ferrero or even Almagro
if anyone thinks Roddick,Blake;Fish or whomever will be a healthy Spanish team is delusional at best:lol:
luck ends here guys
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el sergento
Hall of Fame
Here's what I would do:
Let Blake play Nadal and have Roddick play the #2 or 3 guy for both rubbers.
Nadal wins both matches of course, bur Roddick has a better chance of scoring 1-2 points against anyone else but Nadal. So the score would be 3-2 Spain if the US wins in doubles. If Roddick out of some act of god wins both singles then the B'bros could be the deciding factor.
I see it as the only chance the US has to not go down 4-1. Blake is gonna loose anyway so why not play him vs. Nadal so that Roddick can have a chance at scoring at least a single point.
Let Blake play Nadal and have Roddick play the #2 or 3 guy for both rubbers.
Nadal wins both matches of course, bur Roddick has a better chance of scoring 1-2 points against anyone else but Nadal. So the score would be 3-2 Spain if the US wins in doubles. If Roddick out of some act of god wins both singles then the B'bros could be the deciding factor.
I see it as the only chance the US has to not go down 4-1. Blake is gonna loose anyway so why not play him vs. Nadal so that Roddick can have a chance at scoring at least a single point.
el sergento
Hall of Fame
Ferrer isn't that dominant on clay, he's pretty much an all courter. Which is why he's a top 10er.
On HC he's 90-65 which is a58% winning percentage.
On Clay he's 110-65 which is a 62% winning percentage.
I'd play Ferrero or Moya over Ferrer. Moya wins 71% of the time on clay and Ferrero 74%.
Plus Ferrer is, so far, having a crappy year. By September all this might change though.
FYI - Nadal is 91% life time on clay = GOAT.
Nadal_Freak
Banned
I support the Spanish team because my favorite players are on that team. The USA team is full of players I don't like.
Nadal_Freak
Banned
Ferrer had his best year last year though. He is an all courter except maybe grass but clay is still his favorite. Ferrer earlier in his career was obviously not as good as Moya and Ferrero but he is obviously better than them now.
my_forehand
Professional
el sergento
Hall of Fame
He's a better player for sure, but not necessarily a better clay court player. Ferrer has improved so much because he now takes more risks on his FH, which he can flatten out to great effect on faster courts, and which he used to great effect against Nadal at the USO and TMC. He's also now making tonnes more errors then he used to when he was a classic steady retriever or counter puncher (or dirt-baller). Given his achievements last year and his new style of play it will be interesting to see how he fares on clay this season.
[/I]
I saw something the other day. Sampras had 3 clay court titles. I don't know what tournaments they were.
M
Morrissey
Guest
Sampras was a better mover than Roddick and hit better from the baseline than he ever did. People forget that about Sampras, especially on clay. It was from 1997 and onwards that Sampras was obsolete on clay.
Plus, even on clay, Sampras serve was dangerous. If he was serving well, he beat everyone, regardless of the surface. If he was placing them in the corners (unlike Roddick), he still could blow away even the best clay courters, because the surface may be slow, but where you put the serve is almost as important as speed. And he had a HUGE kicker for a 2nd serve, that bothered a lot of players.
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
I know Rodick generally sucks on clay, but keep in mind the DC tie just consists of 1 or 2 matches, & you generally know who you are going to play beforehand. It's not like a regular tour event at all, where you can play anyone of a number of players in the 1st round. Your prep is totally different as well, you have an entire week to practice there, unlike a tour event, for the most part.
Here is Roddick's DC record on clay, I have a feeling if he was playing some of these guys in Monte Carlo or something he wouldn't have fared as well:
2002
loss to Clement 6-4 6-7(6) 6-7(5) 1-6
loss to Grosjean 4-6 6-3 3-6 4-6
2003
loss to Hrbaty 6-3 3-6 4-6 4-6
win over Beck 6-3 6-4 6-4
2004
loss to Nadal 7-6(6) 2-6 6-7(6) 2-6
loss to Moya 2-6 6-7(1) 6-7(5)
2005
win over C Rochus 6-1 6-2 6-3
win over O Rochus 6-7(4) 7-6(4) 7-6(5) 4-6 6-3
2006
loss to Safin 4-6 3-6 6-7(5)
loss to Tursunov 3-6 4-6 7-5 6-3 15-17
2007
win over Minar 6-4 4-6 6-2 6-3
win over Berdych 4-6 6-3 6-2 7-6(4)
2008
win over Melzer 6-4 4-6 6-3 6-7(4) 6-3
So while that isn't a great record, he managed to be competive with all those players, no blowouts. I think he can do the same in Sept. His close scores vs Spain in 2004 is especially impressive.
Here is Roddick's DC record on clay, I have a feeling if he was playing some of these guys in Monte Carlo or something he wouldn't have fared as well:
2002
loss to Clement 6-4 6-7(6) 6-7(5) 1-6
loss to Grosjean 4-6 6-3 3-6 4-6
2003
loss to Hrbaty 6-3 3-6 4-6 4-6
win over Beck 6-3 6-4 6-4
2004
loss to Nadal 7-6(6) 2-6 6-7(6) 2-6
loss to Moya 2-6 6-7(1) 6-7(5)
2005
win over C Rochus 6-1 6-2 6-3
win over O Rochus 6-7(4) 7-6(4) 7-6(5) 4-6 6-3
2006
loss to Safin 4-6 3-6 6-7(5)
loss to Tursunov 3-6 4-6 7-5 6-3 15-17
2007
win over Minar 6-4 4-6 6-2 6-3
win over Berdych 4-6 6-3 6-2 7-6(4)
2008
win over Melzer 6-4 4-6 6-3 6-7(4) 6-3
So while that isn't a great record, he managed to be competive with all those players, no blowouts. I think he can do the same in Sept. His close scores vs Spain in 2004 is especially impressive.
