N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
The last page of this thread has been the source for some major lol for me, I must say.
I got a good laugh out of this rankopedia. Witness their all time greatest mens players ever rankings:
http://www.rankopedia.com/ZoneID=3/15602/Step1/3.htm
-Andre Agassi at #4 all time ahead of Rod Laver. :lol:
-Boris Becker and Stefan Edberg above Ken Rosewall, Bill Tilden, and Pancho Gonzales
-Andy slamless Murray above Guillermo Vilas, Ilie Nastase, and Mats Wilander
-Andy Roddick also above Mats Wilander,
The womens are even better though:
http://www.rankopedia.com/44/Ranking-Best-tennis-player-ever-(female)/Step1/5.htm
-Martina Hingis the #6 women player all time ahead of Margaret Court (in addition to higher than Henin, Serena, Venus, and a bunch of double digit slam winners)
-Kim Clijsters ahead of both Suzanne Lenglen and Helen Wills Moody
-Maria Sharapova ahead of Helen Wills Moody (Sabatini was also ahead of Wills Moody before I voted)
-Sabatini, Davenport, Mauresmo, and Capriati all ahead of Maureen Connolly
-Ana Ivanovic over Maria Bueno
-Anna Kournikova ahead of Maria Bueno, Virginia Wade, and Jana Novotna
Sorry. I do tend to rate Laver conservatively in order to compensate for a personal bias. I thus hope to result in a balanced and objective rating.You rate Laver too low IMO. He did quite well vs Rosewall on clay. I can see Kuerten ranking over Laver since he would have won 5 or 6 Frenchs had his hip not gone out. However do you really think Wilander or even Lendl would win over a series of matches vs Laver with both in their primes on clay?
Also if one is giving Kuerten benefit of doubt on his career (the only way he could rank over Laver on clay IMO) then he too should rank higher in that case.
This does appear to be an Open-Era ONLY list. (I could not open the link to ascertain the correctness here.)Here's a poll from another that has Federer as the #7 greatest CC of all time.
1. Björn Borg
2. Rafael Nadal
3. Mats Wilander
4. Gustavo Kuerten
5. Ivan Lendl
6. Guillermo Vilas
7. Roger Federer
8. Andre Agassi
9. Sergi Bruguera
10. Rod Laver
11. Thomas Muster
12. Ilie Nastase
13. Juan Carlos Ferrero
14. Jim Courier
15. Pete Sampras
16. Boris Becker
17. Guillermo Coria
18. Jan Kodes
19. Gaston Gaudio
20. Albert Costa
21. Andres Gimeno
http://www.rankopedia.com/ZoneID=3/15602/Step1/2657.htm
Well, of course. Lendl was a weekend, country club player.Wow.. Federer in front of great Ivan Lendl
Is there any way to estimate how many equivalents to the FO (international field, deep draw on clay) he won?The French Open didn't exist (in terms of being open to all players anyway) but the international world hardcourt championship (Actually played on clay) was the true forerunner of the French Open (not the 'French Club members only' french championships). Wilding won that twice.
But Borg is definitely the clay-court GOAT (to date).
Is there any way to estimate how many equivalents to the FO (international field, deep draw on clay) he won?
Should we say two? Or more?
Wow.. Federer in front of great Ivan Lendl
Haven't you heard?
- If Federer didn't choke against Nadal he would've been the greatest on clay.
- If Federer used more drop shots against Nadal, he would have been the clay GOAT.
- If Nadal didn't direct all his shots to Federer's bh, Fed would've have been the greatest on clay.
- If Roger, didn't have mono those 4 years he lost to Nadal at the French, he could've been the greatest on clay.
- If Nadal didn't fistpump after every point, federer would've been the greatest on clay.
- If Federer's serve didn't collapse everytime he faced Nadal, he could've been the greatest on clay because Fed's serve is on par with Pete's.
These are the reasons why Federer should be ahead of Lendl on the clay greats-list.
You know Borg #1 I have been doing some serious soul searching and I actually am putting Borg as the clay court GOAT. Now I think Nadal is #2 but this cronic injury "xcuse" thing is making me drop Nadal down.
Borg and his camp conducted themselves with consistency, nobility and aplomb.
Just thought U might like to hear that.
He was definately the "Ice Man".
The greatest clay court player that ever lived. Also in the top with the other GOATs. Laver, Pete and Fed.
Before the World Hardcourt Championship came into being in 1912 the top European Clay court tournament was Nice. Wilding won that 3 times. He also won the other prestiguous Clay court tournament Monte Carlo 5 times (a record he shares with Nadal). The French Open didn't exist (in terms of being open to all players anyway) but the international world hardcourt championship (Actually played on clay) was the true forerunner of the French Open (not the 'French Club members only' french championships). Wilding won that twice. Accoding to Wildings davis cup team mate Norman Brookes (who was such a good player himself he pushed a peak Bill Tilden to the limit in matches when he Brookes was in his '40's), Wildings best surface was clay, even though he had won Wimbledon on grass 4 times. From the 1911 season to the 1914 season he hardly lost a match on the surface (open to input here, I'm actually wondering if he was in fact unbeaten on clay during that period). He won 18 titles on clay alone in his last 2 seasons (!913 & 1914). Basically in the 1910's before the first world war he was the Nadal of that period. I'm sure he would have gone on but unfortunately he was killed in World war 1 in 1915.
Nadal has a few chinks to his resume now, compared to Borg. It's hard to ignore:
- the awful fourth round loss at RG during what should be his peak/prime
- the four dominant years on red clay, compared to Borg's five (in a row)
If Nadal dominates again this year then he's push the latter total to five. But that still won't change the fact that he'll have that 2009 disappointment sitting in between.
We can look back at Borg's career and say that at his peak he was untouchable. He has that mystique. Nadal lost some of mystique last year.
Ooooh. Dripping with sarcasm.Haven't you heard?
- If Federer didn't choke against Nadal he would've been the greatest on clay.
- If Federer used more drop shots against Nadal, he would have been the clay GOAT.
- If Nadal didn't direct all his shots to Federer's bh, Fed would've have been the greatest on clay.
- If Roger, didn't have mono those 4 years he lost to Nadal at the French, he could've been the greatest on clay.
- If Nadal didn't fistpump after every point, federer would've been the greatest on clay.
- If Federer's serve didn't collapse everytime he faced Nadal, he could've been the greatest on clay because Fed's serve is on par with Pete's.
These are the reasons why Federer should be ahead of Lendl on the clay greats-list.
Given that Nadal would miss the next couple months and Wimbledon as the defending Champion with an injury soon after his French Open defeat I dont think the French Open loss to Soderling will mean of anything in the evaluation of his career if he rebounds strongly.
Borg also lost twice to Panatta at the french open
I love it and agree with you. Yet, I have major respect for Nadal and I think he's got a shot at catching Borg. If he does that, depending on how he does that, at that point I may concede that he is in fact #1 on clay. Yet, in my book, Borg is still the Clay King and among the Greats of all time, which are Borg, Federer, Laver, and Sampras in my opinion. That's great to hear. It sounds like you may have some newfound respect for Bjorn Borg. I tell you, he deserves his place in the Game. He toiled for many years and had such a bright, but abbreviated career. He was a class act in Tennis too. Per Harry Hopman, he was a "complete credit to the Game". It's hard to get top Borg in many respects. Very unique. Like the quote from Nastase, he does not seem like he's from the same planet in some ways. Thanks.
Here's a chronological list of Tony Wilding's tournament wins on clay (the list is not meant to be definitive):
1905
1. Poseldorf Cup, Hamburg, Germany
2. Championships of Europe, Bad Homburg, Germany
3. Le Touquet, France
1906
1. Riviera Championships, Menton, France
2. Championships of Cannes, Cannes, France
3. Championships of Barcelona, Barcelona, Spain (the Spanish Championships were closed to overseas players at this point, so Wilding can’t have won it, as stated in wikipedia)
4. Wiesbaden, Germany (Wilding won both the Wiesbaden Cup and the Championships of Wiesbaden at this tournament)
5. Championships of Austria, Prague, Bohemia
6. Championships of Bohemia, Prague, Bohemia (Wilding appears to have won this tournament in addition to the Championships of Austria, although the tournaments might have been played concurrently)
7. Carlsbad, Austria
8. Franzensbad, Bohemia
9. Marienbad, Austria (Wilding won both the Auersperg Prize [the “Cup”] and the Championships of Marienbad events at this tournament)
10. Bad Homburg, Germany
11. Baden-Baden, Germany
1907
1. South of France Championships, Nice, France
2. Wiesbaden, Germany (again, Wilding won both the Wiesbaden Cup and the Championships of Wiesbaden at this tournament)
3. Championships of Austria, Prague, Bohemia
4. Championships of Vienna, Vienna, Austria
5. Championships of Budapest, Budapest, Hungary
6. Marienbad, Austria (again, Wilding won both the Auersperg Prize [the “Cup”] and the Championships of Marienbad events at this tournament)
7. Franzensbad, Bohemia
8. Carlsbad, Austria
9. Swiss Championships, Lucerne, Switzerland
10. Baden-Baden, Germany
[The chronology is probably slightly incorrect for tournaments 6-8 above]
1908
1. Championships of the Italian Riviera, San Remo, Italy
2. Monte Carlo, Monaco
3. South of France Championships, Nice, France
4. Championships of Cannes, Cannes, France
5. Metropole Hotel, Cannes, France
6. Wiesbaden, Germany (for the third year in a row Wilding Wilding won both the Wiesbaden Cup and the Championships of Wiesbaden at this tournament)
7. Lille, France
8. Bordeaux, France
9. Dieppe, France
10. Baden-Baden, Germany
1909 – Wilding did not play in Europe in this year, nor, probably, on clay
1910
1. South African Championships, Johannesburg, South Africa
2. Championships of the Italian Riviera, San Remo, Italy
3. Leopold Club, Brussels, Belgium
4. Lille, France
5. Brussels, Belgium
6. Ostend, Belgium
7. The Hague, Holland
8. Évian-les-Bains, France
9. Sapicourt, France
1911
1. Championships of the Italian Riviera, San Remo, Italy
2. Monte Carlo, Monaco
3. Riviera Championships, Menton, France
4. South of France Championships, Nice, France
5. Championships of Cannes, Cannes, France
1912
1. Monte Carlo, Monaco
2. Deauville, France
1913
1. Monte Carlo, Monaco
2. Riviera Championships, Menton, France
3. World Hard Court Championships, Paris, France
4. Deauville, France
5. Le Touquet, France
6. Montreux Autumn Meeting, Montreux, Switzerland
7. Montreux Palace Autumn Meeting, Montreux, Switzerland
1914
1. Carlton Club (1st Meeting), Cannes, France
2. Bordighera, Italy
3. Beaulieu, France
4. Cote d’Azur Championships, Cannes, France
5. Monte Carlo, Monaco
6. Riviera Championships, Menton, France
7. South of France Championships, Nice, France
8. Nice Country Club Tournament, Nice, France
9. Championships of Cannes, Cannes, France
10. Carlton Club (2nd Meeting), Cannes, France
11. World Hard Court Championships, Paris, France
Wilding also won the “Forme-Becharat Cup” in Menton in 1911, 1913 and 1914, but this event was probably played concurrently with the Riviera Championships.
This gives Wilding a total of 68 clay court tournament wins (known so far). The 1914 World Hard Court Championships was Wilding’s last ever win in a singles tournament.
“Well, this is incredibly impressive (& thanks very much for the work getting this detail) Does that give Wilding a place in the list of the best clay courters?
"Since the Grand Slams weren't settled on until the late 20's or early 30's - (from 1912 to 1923 there were three recognised world championships - Grass (Wimbledon), Clay (World Hardcourt championship) and Indoor (Word covered court championship) what do you think are the equivalent clay majors for Wilding? I'm thinking pre-1912 - he won Nice combined with Monte Carlo 5 times and also won the Championships of Europe on Clay in 1905. Combined with the 2 World Hard court championships - that is equivalent to 8 clay majors. (you could throw in a couple of Riviera Championships as well). Plus I am thinking that he has the record for most clay court tournament tournament victories in history (more than L. Doherty?) he should at least get a mention on the best clay courters list.”
I copied those tournaments from the list of Tony Wilding’s singles tournament victories included in wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Wilding
I’m sure that virtually all of those 62 tournaments were played on clay. I’m not sure that, for example, Wilding won two tournaments in Montreux in 1913, but it is more difficult to check up on some results than others. Regardless of this, he was still a great player, on any surface. But especially on clay, where he won about sixty per cent of this singles titles. I don't know who has won the most clay court titles in history.
You could certainly argue that the World Hard Court Championships were the precursor to the modern French Championshps/French Open. Monte Carlo also tended to attract the top players most years (the men competed for the Monte Carlo Cup). As far as I can see, Wilding played Monte Carlo five times and won it five times (1908, 1911-14). The Riviera tournaments in general had quite small draws, especially in the early years, but a lot of the top players did compete in them. That’s why they are worth remembering. You can find many of the early draws, not just from the Riviera tournaments, here: www.tennisarchives.com Don't forget German tournaments like Bad Homburg, Wiesbaden and Baden-Baden, which also had some excellent top-class draws (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=320958).
Anyway, if you like Wilding, keep an eye out for a results thread I’m going to create in the next few days. It will have virtually all of the final results from all of the tournaments where Wilding won the singles title, plus the dates (some of them approximate) and the surface of the court. The total of 112 overall singles titles for him is accurate.
I am leaning toward putting him on the list.
The hard part is calculating how many FO (or clay slam) equivalents he might have.
^^^Wow! Sounds like he'd be right up there with Borg and Nadal.
No, you are correct. Yet it's a good place to start, and maybe the easiest method by which to compare over many decades and different eras, and thus to rank.Do we rate a players strength solely on their 'major equivalents'. I agree they are the most important titles but some weight should be given to number of titles too and it would appear that Wilding has the most clay court titles of anyone in history.
Here's a poll from another that has Federer as the #7 greatest CC of all time.
1. Björn Borg
2. Rafael Nadal
3. Mats Wilander
4. Gustavo Kuerten
5. Ivan Lendl
6. Guillermo Vilas
7. Roger Federer
8. Andre Agassi
9. Sergi Bruguera
10. Rod Laver
11. Thomas Muster
12. Ilie Nastase
13. Juan Carlos Ferrero
14. Jim Courier
15. Pete Sampras
16. Boris Becker
17. Guillermo Coria
18. Jan Kodes
19. Gaston Gaudio
20. Albert Costa
21. Andres Gimeno
http://www.rankopedia.com/ZoneID=3/15602/Step1/2657.htm
For me, Vilas is better than Kuerten. Vilas won just one French because of Borg, but he won USOPen on clay too. Kuerten won 3 times the French, but beating Corretja and Norman.
Borg got one major flaw to his resume.. if he was the greatest claycourter why didnt he win USO when it was played on clay
I'd also include the Dohertys in the discussion. A list of some of their clay court singles victories can be found here:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=322284
Borg didn't hit his peak until sometime in 1977. I am not sure how he went at the US Open in that year (did he compete - not sure that he did). 1975 and 1976 were before his peak (I know he won the French in 1974/1975). He didn't like American clay court as much as European - the surface didn't suit him as well, plus Jimmy Connors was a great player on American clay. His head to head on clay with Borg from 1974 to 1976 was 3-0 I believe.
Did Borg play the US Open in 1977 (the last one on clay)?
Borg didn't hit his peak until sometime in 1977. I am not sure how he went at the US Open in that year (did he compete - not sure that he did). 1975 and 1976 were before his peak (I know he won the French in 1974/1975). He didn't like American clay court as much as European - the surface didn't suit him as well, plus Jimmy Connors was a great player on American clay. His head to head on clay with Borg from 1974 to 1976 was 3-0 I believe.
Did Borg play the US Open in 1977 (the last one on clay)?