Chinese Swimmer on Drugs?
- Thread starter ninman
- Start date
volleygirl
Rookie
Barry Bonds, Roidger Clemens and many others want you put in charge of the baseball Hall of Fame. Are you interested?
So, according to your own calculations Ye took off .625sec per 50m and the Latvian took off over 1sec per 50m (since, she actually bested her time by 2.8 second).
But, "mathematically speaking" taking .625 per 50m is more impressive than taking 1+sec per 50m? Thanks for the maths lesson. (Yup, used "maths" just for you ninman
)... *facepalm* Mathematically speaking 1 > .625 and after some twisted logic and speculation you made it so .625 > 1.Additionally, as previously stated 4-5 seconds in a year has been done before.
The rest of your post about Adlington is again your own speculation and twisted logic. Better rhythm because of a longer race? No... just no. You don't swim better lap times in longer races. Check the results for 400m vs 800m.
In fact, it makes Adlington's feat even more impressive. The race was double the distance, yet Adlington still managed to out pace Ye in the final 50m.
I didn't say it was incorrect to use her nationality against her. I merely want people to call it like it is. It's because she's Chinese, people don't have to be so PC about it and try to justify it with other arguments. You suspect her because she's Chinese and leave it at that.
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Fearsome Forehand
Professional
Sometimes it is better not to respond at all. The other guy made himself look like a pompous ass by writing what he did. Trust me, that wasn't lost on anyone who read that post. You didn't even have to bother to make a defense.
Good luck to you in your education. Don't waste so much time on message boards.
volleygirl
Rookie
What about those of us who insist that Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mark McGuire, Alex Rodriguez, Lance Armstrong and others who are Americans all cheated? That Juan Gonzalez and David Ortiz who are from the Dominican cheated? Are we suspecting this girl "just because shes Chinese" as well?
I don't deny that I'm a pompous ass.
As I previously stated "Is Ye doping? Quite possibly sure. But, if you are going to base it on her results being impossible, you would be wrong. If you are going to base it on it being improbably you better be ready to scrutinize those other people I just mentioned, which no one is.
The only real basis I can see for suspecting ONLY Ye is her nationality."
So, do you also agree then that some of the other Olympians times are a little suspect? If yes, then that comment was obviously not directed at you.
So, according to your own calculations Ye took off .625sec per 50m and the Latvian took off over 1sec per 50m (since, she actually bested her time by 2.8 second).
But, "mathematically speaking" taking .625 per 50m is more impressive than taking 1+sec per 50m? Thanks for the maths lesson. (Yup, used "maths" just for you ninman
Additionally, as previously stated 4-5 seconds in a year has been done before.
Should have said that earlier. You directly said 2 seconds before changing your story. I was doing calculations based off the information YOU gave me.
And yes, being able to consistantly knock off .625ths of a second each length for 8 lengths of a pool off your top time is much, much, MUCH harder than knocking off 1 second off your best time per 50. I take it you have swam competitively (as I have, and I work out in the pool during my school year with one of the members of the 2008 4x100 team that won the silver medal in Beijing), so you'd know how hard it is to maintain such an impressive speed over 400 meters over 4 different strokes. I'm not saying the 2.8 seconds as you say isn't impressive; it is and there's probably some doping or PEDs there as well.
RollTrackTake
Professional
Enough with the Bonds, Clemens baseball guys point. We get your view on this. Those guys were never tested for steroids or PED's during most of their careers as MLB was lax in enforcing their vague anti-doping rules. McGwire admitted to taking andro which I don't think baseball banned at the time he took it. The Olympic athletes of the last 4 games have been the most tested in history. Including urine and in many cases blood tests. I'm not saying that there isn't some drug out there that tests cannot detect. I just think chances are if there are any abnormalities in her physiology they'll find it.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
I admire you
I said 2 for simplicity and I didn't say 3 because i didn't want to be accused of skewing numbers in my own favor. Ultimately, I still used your .625 and 1.
But, what is the difference between Ye, Rebecca Adlington doing what Ye did after 800m, Ruta from Latvia, and Ian Thorpe who in January 1997 broke his personal record by 8 seconds in the 400m. Either they are all suspect. None are suspect. Or only Ye's is suspect because of her nations history.
You can't come up with these obscure justifications/theories for everybody else but, when it comes to Ye do nothing.
syke
Professional
Hear hear....
volleygirl
Rookie
The guy was saying that "we only suspected the swimmer because she was Chinese" so I listed several athletes in other sports who I insist cheated and who werent Chinese. Showing that her being Chinese had nothing to do with my supiscions of her cheating. Others may have been swayed by the Chinese aspect but just showing I wasnt.
Shangri La
Hall of Fame
Which Olympics did Barry Bonds/Roger Clemens/etc play in and what IOC drug tests have they gone through?
I asked that question already. Don't expect an answer.
Shangri La
Hall of Fame
And for those questioning Ye's leap over her personal best by 5 seconds, magical things happen in your mid-teens as a swimmer.
Goodhew improved his times by FOUR seconds as a 17-year-old while Thorpe increased his by FIVE seconds as a 16-year-old — exactly as Ye has done.
Goodhew improved his times by FOUR seconds as a 17-year-old while Thorpe increased his by FIVE seconds as a 16-year-old — exactly as Ye has done.
Shangri La
Hall of Fame
I really like your expertise in swimming and doping. I wonder if the Chinese are so good at doping, how did they ever get caught? Or did their swimming team hire you recently so that this time Ye was able to escape? Please do share.
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
Knocking off 5 seconds? Bah, mere child's play. It certainly can be done ... a number of ways ...
sidebar: volleygirl, amazing to me the inability by some to see the real reason you listed Bonds and Clements et al: to twart claims of bigotry by those who'd want to play the ethnic/nationalistic card....."you don't like me/us because I'm ...." Imho a myopically defensive riddle wrapped in a ethnocentric mystery inside of a jingoistic egnigma. (wink)
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ninman
Hall of Fame
As far as I'm aware, and I could be wrong, but Chinese people are human beings too. Mistakes are made, clues are left, people are caught. There are plenty of crimes that go unsolved, just as there are plenty of criminals, clever ones and stupid ones, who get caught.
People bringing up the "5 seconds off her personal best", is again missing the point. The point is how much faster she swam the final hundred compared to her own swimming technique, as well as, against her peers.
She normally swims at 6 beats, but for the final 100 she upped to 8 beats. That is really, really unusual.
Yes it's possible to swim the final 100 faster that you were swimming the rest of the race, but the difference in speed is far too great. It is out with the normal, statistically. That's not saying "she's doping", that's just explaining why people find it suspicious.
As for my own point of view, she is innocent until she is proven guilty, but if she was caught doping I would not be the least bit surprised. Further, if she herself did not know she was doping, I would be even less surprised.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Let us try a different question.
Did Marion Jones participate in Olympics, and was she found positive, while competing in them?
ninman
Hall of Fame
Marion Jones competed in the 2000 Sydney Olympics, and was not actually ever caught, as such.
"On December 3, 2004, Victor Conte, the founder of BALCO, appeared in an interview with Martin Bashir on ABC's 20/20. In the interview, Conte told a national audience that he had personally given Jones five different illegal performance enhancing drugs before, during and after the 2000 Sydney Olympic Games." - From Wikipedia.
"On October 5, 2007, Jones admitted to lying to federal agents about her use of steroids prior to the 2000 Summer Olympics and pled guilty at the US District Court for the Southern District of New York (in White Plains)" - Wikipidea.
She confessed in the end. She didn't tested positive until 2006, during the BALCO investigations.
As I said, testing negative means absolutely squat anymore. People just don't trust athletes to stay clean, and they certainly don't trust the system to catch dopers.
volleygirl
Rookie
ninman
Hall of Fame
Let me be clear, I'm not saying she is doping. There is no evidence for that, but when people say "she hasn't failed a test", that doesn't mean she's NOT doping.
There are good reasons to suspect her, and frankly the current system just doesn't do enough to catch cheats.
Right now we should accept that she's clean, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be much more rigorous testing and investigating done for her, and other athletes whose performance deviates significantly from the norm.
The increased testing should automatically occur because she participates more, not by violating her rights by listening to extremists who come up with dubious statistical claims. She need not be harassed more because she is good - all she needs to do is to abide by the rules like everyone else. You have a very poor understanding of civil rights.
albino smurf
Professional
bath salts
Shangri La
Hall of Fame
You can also argue that Joyner was never caught in her life. No system is perfect but the current test system is much more stringent than decades ago. It's much harder to dope today without being caught.
The swimming legends back Ye up but you seem to be more knowledgeable on this subject. By your logic Phelps is the biggest suspect, plus he's from, in your words, 'a country with history of doping'.
...by ignoring the fact that Ye has been tested over and over again with negative results?
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/china-...FuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQD;_ylv=3
More and more of these nonsense.
When China wins (swimming), "THEY ARE DOPING!"
When China loses (badminton), "THEY CHEAT!"
When China wins it right (cycling), "DISQUALIFY!"
More and more of these nonsense.
When China wins (swimming), "THEY ARE DOPING!"
When China loses (badminton), "THEY CHEAT!"
When China wins it right (cycling), "DISQUALIFY!"
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Out of the ordinary.
Was BobBeamon's long jump of over 29' "out of the ord"?
That record stood for 29 years! His peers, AND HIM, were jumping lowest 27's in every practice and meet result.
Nothing "ordinary" about human performance.
Some American's were swimmiing their personal bests by 2-4 seconds.
Was BobBeamon's long jump of over 29' "out of the ord"?
That record stood for 29 years! His peers, AND HIM, were jumping lowest 27's in every practice and meet result.
Nothing "ordinary" about human performance.
Some American's were swimmiing their personal bests by 2-4 seconds.
2-4 seconds is nothing, most swimmers can improve their PB by a bigger margin in their teens.
Look at Elizabeth Beisel (born on August 18, 1992) of USA, who took the silver and finished behind the Chinese girl Ye in 400m IM final at London 2012, Beisel improved her 400m IM record by 12 seconds within one year (from 4:44.87 at age 15 to 4:32.87 at age of 16).
ninman
Hall of Fame
There are other ways to check these things than by repeatedly giving someone tests that are far from reliable.
RollTrackTake
Professional
I agree. As with the others on here making huge assumptions based on flimsy statistics & circumstantial evidence..... Haters gonna hate. By their own flawed logic lets assume 70% of athletes dope it up. I'm a glass half full fellow. I'll give her props until her bloodwork comes back showing more testosterone and growth hormones than Sly Stallone.
Sanglier
Professional
Such as ... via your gut feeling?
You keep saying that you believe Ye should be considered innocent until proven guilty (despite the fact that IOC has gone out of its way to make clear that she is not even under any kind of suspicion!), yet every argument you've made suggests that you believe her to be guilty unless somehow proven innocent (per an as yet undefined set of criteria).
If negative drug test results are not good enough for you, what evidence would satisfy your standard for proof? If all the stats others have posted to show that Ye's performance is extraordinary but hardly unprecedented fail to convince you that her results are far from "statistically impossible" (whatever that means), what more do you need? Why are you so hung up on the 6 stroke vs 8 stroke difference? Many mid-distance and long-distance racers leave enough juice in the tank for a final sprint across the finish line; what's so shocking about that, especially for someone who is still growing and developing?
In a situation like this, the burden of proof is always on the accuser. If Ye's detractors are certain that she is doping, they are the ones who must provide the proof (conjectures and suspicions are not good enough). More importantly, Ye can no more prove that she is not doping than I can prove that I am not an a**hole.
It is logically impossible to prove a negative!
The failure to grasp this basic concept (or perhaps the intentional disregard thereof) led us to our Iraq (mis)adventure in search of those mythical WMDs. Try as he might, Saddam was unable to defy logic and prove a negative, because he couldn't undo his own history, and there was absolutely nothing he could do about Western gut feelings.
Try putting yourself in Ye's place: At your moment of triumph, after years of hard work and sacrifice, all you get is guilt-by-association innuendos and open hostility from those who had never heard of you until today, who righteously demand that you prove your innocence above and beyond what is required of others, because they are either dead certain - or "wouldn't be surprised" - that you are a cheater, given that you come from a culture that produced the likes of Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong, etc., etc.
How would you like that?
In the end, Ye will not be subjected to any more tests than she already has been, so there will be no new evidence to help change anyone's mind one way or the other. Those who are willing to treat her like any other athlete will continue to give her the benefit of the doubt, or not. Those who believe that her nationality makes a difference will always use that against her. The discussion here can go on for another 10 pages and the dividing line won't move an inch, because this kind of debate does little more than to showcase our respective worldviews and prejudices, which are not tied to any particular person or event, and are pretty immune to persuasions after we reach a certain age.
Such as ... via your gut feeling?
You keep saying that you believe Ye should be considered innocent until proven guilty (despite the fact that IOC has gone out of its way to make clear that she is not even under any kind of suspicion!), yet every argument you've made suggests that you believe her to be guilty unless somehow proven innocent (per an as yet undefined set of criteria).
If negative drug test results are not good enough for you, what evidence would satisfy your standard for proof? If all the stats others have posted to show that Ye's performance is extraordinary but hardly unprecedented fail to convince you that her results are far from "statistically impossible" (whatever that means), what more do you need? Why are you so hung up on the 6 stroke vs 8 stroke difference? Many mid-distance and long-distance racers leave enough juice in the tank for a final sprint across the finish line; what's so shocking about that, especially for someone who is still growing and developing?
In a situation like this, the burden of proof is always on the accuser. If Ye's detractors are certain that she is doping, they are the ones who must provide the proof (conjectures and suspicions are not good enough). More importantly, Ye can no more prove that she is not doping than I can prove that I am not an a**hole.
It is logically impossible to prove a negative!
The failure to grasp this basic concept (or perhaps the intentional disregard thereof) led us to our Iraq (mis)adventure in search of those mythical WMDs. Try as he might, Saddam was unable to defy logic and prove a negative, because he couldn't undo his own history, and there was absolutely nothing he could do about Western gut feelings.
Try putting yourself in Ye's place: At your moment of triumph, after years of hard work and sacrifice, all you get is guilt-by-association innuendos and open hostility from those who had never heard of you until today, who righteously demand that you prove your innocence above and beyond what is required of others, because they are either dead certain - or "wouldn't be surprised" - that you are a cheater, given that you come from a culture that produced the likes of Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong, etc., etc.
How would you like that?
In the end, Ye will not be subjected to any more tests than she already has been, so there will be no new evidence to help change anyone's mind one way or the other. Those who are willing to treat her like any other athlete will continue to give her the benefit of the doubt, or not. Those who believe that her nationality makes a difference will always use that against her. The discussion here can go on for another 10 pages and the dividing line won't move an inch, because this kind of debate does little more than to showcase our respective worldviews and prejudices, which are not tied to any particular person or event, and are pretty immune to persuasions after we reach a certain age.
Greatest post I've read in a long time. Couldn't have said it better. I think we should be able to end this thread now. There is no point to continue to persuade them. Haters gonna hate.
Sentinel
Bionic Poster
Wasn't that at altitude (Mexico City) or something ?
ninman
Hall of Fame
Such as ... via your gut feeling?
You keep saying that you believe Ye should be considered innocent until proven guilty (despite the fact that IOC has gone out of its way to make clear that she is not even under any kind of suspicion!), yet every argument you've made suggests that you believe her to be guilty unless somehow proven innocent (per an as yet undefined set of criteria).
If negative drug test results are not good enough for you, what evidence would satisfy your standard for proof? If all the stats others have posted to show that Ye's performance is extraordinary but hardly unprecedented fail to convince you that her results are far from "statistically impossible" (whatever that means), what more do you need? Why are you so hung up on the 6 stroke vs 8 stroke difference? Many mid-distance and long-distance racers leave enough juice in the tank for a final sprint across the finish line; what's so shocking about that, especially for someone who is still growing and developing?
In a situation like this, the burden of proof is always on the accuser. If Ye's detractors are certain that she is doping, they are the ones who must provide the proof (conjectures and suspicions are not good enough). More importantly, Ye can no more prove that she is not doping than I can prove that I am not an a**hole.
It is logically impossible to prove a negative!
The failure to grasp this basic concept (or perhaps the intentional disregard thereof) led us to our Iraq (mis)adventure in search of those mythical WMDs. Try as he might, Saddam was unable to defy logic and prove a negative, because he couldn't undo his own history, and there was absolutely nothing he could do about Western gut feelings.
Try putting yourself in Ye's place: At your moment of triumph, after years of hard work and sacrifice, all you get is guilt-by-association innuendos and open hostility from those who had never heard of you until today, who righteously demand that you prove your innocence above and beyond what is required of others, because they are either dead certain - or "wouldn't be surprised" - that you are a cheater, given that you come from a culture that produced the likes of Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong, etc., etc.
How would you like that?
In the end, Ye will not be subjected to any more tests than she already has been, so there will be no new evidence to help change anyone's mind one way or the other. Those who are willing to treat her like any other athlete will continue to give her the benefit of the doubt, or not. Those who believe that her nationality makes a difference will always use that against her. The discussion here can go on for another 10 pages and the dividing line won't move an inch, because this kind of debate does little more than to showcase our respective worldviews and prejudices, which are not tied to any particular person or event, and are pretty immune to persuasions after we reach a certain age.
Personally I just don't trust the Chinese authorities. I don't believe that Ye would, or has, consciously taken anything. However, they are not above giving her "medicine", or "special treatment", and telling her "don't worry, these are just vitamins", or something like that. Remember we're talking about a government run organisation.
These are horrible, horrible people, they lie, cheat, steal and do whatever is necessary to get to the top. Manipulating, and using, a 16 year old girl wouldn't phase them one bit.
You make it sound like she had a choice in the matter. The fact is, she almost certainly did not. She's probably been through what many people would consider torture, a fairly large amount of brainwashing, and bean "built" into the perfect swimmer.
I would be willing to bet that she's missed out on a formal education altogether, and when the time comes when she can't swim anymore she will turfed out like an old toy and left to fend for herself.
Let's remember the 2008 olympics' opening ceremony. They used another girls voice, but put a "cuter" girl on stage. They lied about gymnasts' ages, then produced "official" documents to "prove" they were above the age limit. Most recently a 16 year old Chinese swimmer was caught doping.
You mean to tell me that a 16 year old got those drugs all by herself, and willingly took them?
I personally think she's suspect, and it would not surprise me one little bit if they found her to have been taking something. It would surprise even less if she wasn't even aware she was taking something.
But as of now, we should assume she is clean and congratulate her on her 2 gold medals, but that doesn't mean we can't be extra wary and vigilant in the future.
ninman
Hall of Fame
Yeah it's not like stuff like this happened in Beijing or whatever, right?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/23/olympics2008.olympicstaekwondo1
I didn't hear any Chinese people complain about that decision. Why didn't her opponent do the sporting thing and tell the judges they were wrong?
Sanglier
Professional
How do you reconcile "I personally think she's suspect" with "we should assume she is clean"? I can't wrap my brain around this one.
You spent a good number of posts arguing that it's not so much her nationality that was the problem, but that her performance was well "outside the normal range" to be "statistically possible". Yet when shown that this is simply not the case, you fall straight back to guilt by association - listing past Chinese misdeeds, none of which is remotely connected to Ye's performance, as reasons for casting doubt on her results.
You don't trust the Chinese government. We get it. No one will try to stop you from feeling that way; many Chinese in China probably agree with you on a number of those points. But unless you have evidence to show that Ye's performance is the product of doping, with or without her consent, everything else is pure speculation and/or irrelevant, and does nothing more than to cast aspersions on Ye and her trainers with zero proof.
Do you view Ledecky's performance as similarly suspect? Aren't her results also "outside the normal range" and "statistically impossible" for a 15 year old, who literally just came out of nowhere? We don't "torture" our athletes to take drugs, but they obviously have a history of doing so on their own volition (or by "accident"). Would it be fair to use Armstrong's chemically enhanced superhuman performance to call into doubt Ledecky's amazing race yesterday, simply because they are from the same country?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/03/oly-swim-sww80f-ledecky-doping-idUSL6E8J3QWY20120803
Your mind is clearly made up on this, and it appears to be tied to your experience in China and your impression of the people and culture there. This is not something that can be undone through this kind of discussions. I only chimed in to offer my own opinion on this specific topic, which your OP asked for; nothing more.
All of us wish to be treated as individuals, rather than faceless drones within a collective, yet we tend to ditch the Golden Rule whenever we venture slightly outside of our own communities.
Just a rather sad aspect of human nature, I suppose.
Yes, it was. However, as LeeD already pointed out, the other competitors were jumping around 27' and they were also at altitude. If altitude were a factor, it should apply to all the competitors (we should see an improvement across the board).
Yes there are a number of overseas Chinese and their children who are unable to separate other Chinese persons' experiences in a modern era from their experiences with the government in the past and paint everything with the same broad brush. Over here, they even circulate a weekly free "newspaper" in local gathering spots like food courts devoted to criticizing the Chinese government, and politicians in the US use them as a tool in negotiations with the Chinese.
HodeClassicMP
Rookie
Just saw this comment on yourtube,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7tAhVHsb70
List of athletes found doping by nationality:
China 11
Germany 21
Great Britain 27
France 27
United States 140
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7tAhVHsb70
List of athletes found doping by nationality:
China 11
Germany 21
Great Britain 27
France 27
United States 140
Sentinel
Bionic Poster
I am with you on most of this, but I would not assume she is clean. I can't go by the saying "innocent until proved guilty" in sports any longer.
How often have we seen WR holders or Olympic medalists being caught a year or 2 after. Does this mean they were clean 1-2 years back ? Was Ben Johnson clean when he ran 9.6 (or whatever it was) in 1987? Did he start doping a year AFTER breaking the WR.
Do you remember Ma Junren whose team slashed middle distance records and then just vanished before the Olympics?
We've known for decades that dope testing is several years behind the dopers.
I am also shocked or rather disgusted to see Justin Gatlin here. Once caught, these offenders should not be allowed to compete in the Olympics or World Champs. Many American sprinters and European middle distance runners have been caught doping at some time or other in their career. Same goes for weightlifters. IMO, it would be naive to believe that these top athletes are clean just because the passed the tests.
Sentinel
Bionic Poster
Good point, but I seem to remember that he had a tail-wind that assisted him.
p.s.
from wikipedia
In making his record jump, Beamon enjoyed a number of advantageous environmental factors.[8] At an altitude of 2240 m, Mexico City's air had less resistance than air would have at sea level. This allows runners to run faster and jumpers to jump farther. In addition to Beamon's record, world records were broken in most of the sprinting and jumping events at the 1968 Olympic Games. Beamon also benefited from a tail wind of 2 meters per second on his jump, the maximum allowable for record purposes. It has been estimated that the tail wind and altitude may have improved Beamon's long jump distance by 31 cm.[8] During the same hour Lee Evans set the world record for 400 metres that lasted for almost 20 years.
After winning the gold medal in Mexico City, he never again jumped over 8.22 m.
syke
Professional
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh........
ninman
Hall of Fame
It's similar to the police suspecting people of a crime without hard evidence. The person is still considered "innocent", even though the police believe they committed the crime.
I have also never said what she did was statistically impossible, I just said it falls outside the normal statistical range. That doesn't make it impossible, just unlikely.
I agree with Sentinel on this. It's simply impossible to trust the drug testing system anymore. I think a big part of the problem is that it's the Chinese government who carries her out-of-competition tests. So not only do I not trust the tests themselves, I trust the Chinese government even less to reveal a positive result.
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Sanglier
Professional
You do realize that for the police to identify a crime suspect, we must first establish that a crime had been committed, right? Where is the crime in this instance?
What you have been doing is the equivalent of saying - men are known to commit rape; therefore every man is a potential rapist, especially someone who shares the same ethnicity, age, socioeconomic background as known rapists from the past. If I come across one of these men, I am going to treat him as a suspect until he somehow convinces me that he isn't. The fact that no one had reported being ***** by this man is irrelevant to me, because we all know crime reporting is unreliable.
Do you not see a problem with this line of reasoning? I certainly hope no one ever treats you using this kind of logic during your social and business dealings.
You may not trust the Chinese government to reveal positive test results, but they did exactly that five months ago when they pulled one of their swimmers from their Olympic squad:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Zhesi
Before you say Li is "almost certainly" pulled for other offenses against a tyrannical government, just remember - the burden of proof is on you should you make such claims, even when the accused is the Chinese government.
As for Ye's results falling outside the "norm". Every new record is by definition "outside the normal range" until it happens. Without the "highly unlikely" aspect of such achievements, they wouldn't be special, memorable, and deserving of celebration! How likely was Phelps' medal count over the last eight years? How likely was Ledecky's phenomenal win (by all measure an even more incredible improvement over personal best than Ye's)? Would you start a new thread questioning their performances as well?
You and a handful of others have made the broadest possible assertion that drug tests simply cannot be trusted anymore, period. If so, then NONE of the athletic achievements in these games (or in any contest where PED test is administered) can be free of suspicion, regardless of the athlete's gender, age, nationality, personal history, and test results.
It's certainly your prerogative to be a cynic, given the reality of doping, and as long as you apply your cynicism across the board and not selectively against athletes from one particular nation, you will get little argument from anybody (the doping stats posted above, if real, would suggest that US athletes were more likely to use PED than anyone else, but it would be wrong to single out Americans for extra scrutiny because of that). The sad fact is, Ye IS being singled out because of her national origin, for reasons that are not connected to her ability or performance; which is very unfair to her in my opinion. She is now presumed guilty (even NPR's "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" made a joke about her yesterday, cementing her place among the Bonds and Armstrongs of our collective memory), with zero possibility for her to clear her name (as I pointed out in my first post - no one can prove a negative). It's to her credit that she has held up as well as she has so far. If I were her, I'd be calling John Leonard all kinds of names in public and challenging him to a duel!
I know I am getting repetitive here, so these are my last words on this topic. Thanks for hearing me out.
