2019 Rolex Paris Masters - ATP Masters 1000 - General Discussion

Who gets the title?

  • Total voters
    69
  • Poll closed .
FedGR

FedGR

Professional
Sport said:
No offense, but that comment (that Nadal is returning nearer the baseline because his legs are not the same) makes no logic. Nadal started returning near the baseline. Watch his Wimbledon 2006-2008 matches agaisnt Federer. He returned so near the baseline, if not even on the baseline itself. It is only that in recent years he got used to return far behind the baseline. After the Wimbledon 2019 SF, his coaching team told him to return nearer the baseline and he is gradually adapting to that new tactic, as we can clearly see in this tournament.
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No offense taken. You struggle to give me any reasoning though why he was returning closer to the baseline. His coaching team told him so, but why?

Also, the fact that his legs are not the same is a fact. And fact based hypotheses do have logic independent to whether you agree with it or not.
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
The poll results are funny. Nadal ahead of Djokovic? If they both reach the final it is going to be worse than in 2009.
 
Sport

Sport

G.O.A.T.
TennisFan3 said:
Excellent post as usual. Just to add to your points: Nadal stands far back when he is NOT playing well - not because his legs have more energy. In fact on peak fitness and prime form, Nadal USUALLY stands in. See his runs in Fall 2010 and 2013 fall hardcourt seasons. Nadal's court positioning has to do with his confidence. When he is confident in his shots and timing, he can back himself to stand in and be able to time the ball with depth and pace.
When Nadal is NOT confident - he resorts to the default mode of safe play and trying to retrieve everything standing far behind. Because of his long follow-through on the forehand - that's the safest mode for him. That he does more running this way is an unfortunate consequence and leads to injuries.

Lastly, it has to do with court speed as well. When the court is low bouncing and fast as Paris, you have to stand further up. It is impossible to defend from far back. If you stand back, you need cover more court to get to the ball. Since the surface is fast, your opponent can hit the ball through the court much more easily, and you are way less likely to be able to retrieve. The whole point is to take time away from your opponent on a faster court, which is why you need to stand in and take the ball early.
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Well said. I happen to concur with you, good observation that Nadal has a tendency to go far behind the baseline when he does not feel comfortable during the match. The only exception would be clay, where he seems to always play far behind the baseline nowadays and still can display a good level. Maybe next year Rafa will get used to return within the baseline even on clay? After Wimbledon 2019, I think Carlos Moyá and his technical stuff are encouraging Rafa to return within the baseline. It will be interesting to see if Rafa adopts this methodological tactic even on clay.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as far I am concerned Novak is more regular in his return tactical pattern. Novak returns within the baseline in every match, regardless of the court particularities. Regularity in the return execution is a sign of secutirity, which is unsurprising given the fact that Nole is widely considered, and rightfully so, to be the greatest returner of tennis.
 
3fees

3fees

G.O.A.T.
Congrats to Nadal blnt Stanimal 64 x 2, Nadal v Tsonga next who pulled a win out of the thin air vs Struff in the 3rd set TB.

Cheers
3Fees :)
 
yokied

yokied

Hall of Fame
Meles said:
Quite the contrast with the abominations on the main court ... Where were you for Thiem's Vienna triumph?:mad: Thought Grigs taking out Thiem nemesis Goffin was a blessing.:sneaky:
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I watched the replay. I would've been happy with either result and it was a bit of a choke-off like I expected. DieGOAT should've won in straights IMHO. I'm glad Timmy won in it and good on him, in a McDonalds encouragement award kind of way. It was a big improvement on his hometown performance last year which was just hard to watch.

I get sad watching him running away from the ball to prepare another bazooka RPM groundstroke on HC when he could easily be a contender with a few tweaks and a slower, smoother swing on some balls. It's a bit hard to watch his matches most of the time off clay. I can't keep up with it all and have a young family so when I have time I watch replays of the matches that look interesting.

Fed was off the charts in Basel but apart from that, a lot of tired minds and bodies producing some ordinary tennis as we have discussed before. Most of the results and "form" we're seeing here means nothing come AO20, maybe not even much come London. I just hope Med is resting so he can really rattle some cages in London and give the big 3 something to think about before AO.

Grigolo is evolving/devolving into a dangerous floater right before our very eyes... Timmy got 99 problems on hard but Grigor is unlikely to appear on the list that often...
 
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
yokied said:
I watched the replay. I would've been happy with either result and it was a bit of a choke-off like I expected. DieGOAT should've won in straights IMHO. I'm glad Timmy won in it and good on him, in a McDonalds encouragement award kind of way. It was a big improvement on his hometown performance last year which was just hard to watch.

I get sad watching him running away from the ball to prepare another bazooka RPM groundstroke on HC when he could easily be a contender with a few tweaks and a slower, smoother swing on some balls. It's a bit hard to watch his matches most of the time off clay. I can't keep up with it all and have a young family so when I have time I watch replays of the matches that look interesting.

Fed was off the charts in Basel but apart from that, a lot of tired minds and bodies producing some ordinary tennis as we have discussed before. Most of the results and "form" we're seeing here means nothing come AO20, maybe not even much come London. I just hope Med is resting so he can really rattle some cages in London and give the big 3 something to think about before AO.

Grigolo is evolving/devolving into a dangerous floater right before our very eyes... Timmy got 99 problems on hard but Grigor is unlikely to appear on the list that often...
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Yeah I just did stats review of Timmy 2019 and on hard courts he's still at 52% points won on the nose like last year. Its a complete over perform on his part winning hard court masters 1000 and two 500's this year. Basically its Vampiro on the whips getting his burger eating butt over the line hehe. Oddly his hard court first return is down this year which may be a coaching mistake (very likely).

Timmy certainly has the game to be a weak slam winner like Kafelnikov off clay. 2019 Timmy on clay still has me scratching my head a bit. The wind killed him and the field in Monte Carlo and his demise to Fiasco at Rome was quite shocking and led to his slowish start at RG. I want more from Timmy on clay in 2020.:mad:

Agree on the rest. Hopefully Mad Lad can stumble into WTF SFs and then catch fire.
 
yokied

yokied

Hall of Fame
Meles said:
2019 Timmy on clay still has me scratching my head a bit. The wind killed him and the field in Monte Carlo and his demise to Fiasco at Rome was quite shocking and led to his slowish start at RG. I want more from Timmy on clay in 2020.:mad:
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Yeah he could vulture a USO like the Nadal if the stars align. The clay was really weak this year and it really broke my lil Timmy heart. This guy was meant to be one of Fed's guardians of the legacy but he still hasn't won anything lol. On clay he still plays with too little margin too IMHO. If he just stuck to pumping the bazooka down the middle 2/3 of the court and waited for more easy putaways, he'd be much happier and probably would play faster matches that didn't have WTA-style peaks and troughs with whole sets written off due to tantrums over some stupid DTL winner that was never on.

Dominating opponents while redlining does little for one's confidence in tough matches, as he keeps finding out against the Nadal. I don't think he really needs to redline against the Nadal either because trading down the middle is the first step to getting inside Nadal's head. But that would require a real change in mindset and this guy ain't a thinking player so I just can't invest much more.

Meles said:
@yokied just threw a bomb and voted other in thread poll; Shapoo_O
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Which poll? I often vote sarcastically if the thread or poll sucks.
 
Last edited:
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
yokied said:
Yeah he vulture a USO like the Nadal if the stars align. The clay was really weak this year and it really broke my lil Timmy heart. This guy was meant to be one of Fed's guardians of the legacy but he still hasn't won anything lol. On clay he still plays with too little margin too IMHO. If he just stuck to pumping the bazooka down the middle 2/3 of the court and waited for more easy putaways, he'd be much happier and probably would play faster matches that didn't have WTA-style peaks and troughs with whole sets written off due to tantrums over some stupid DTL winner that was never on.

Dominating opponents while redlining does little for one's confidence in tough matches, as he keeps finding out against the Nadal. I don't think he really needs to redline against the Nadal either because trading down the middle is the first step to getting inside Nadal's head. But that would require a real change in mindset and this guy ain't a thinking player so I just can't invest much more.



Which poll? I often vote sarcastically if the thread or poll sucks.
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The poll on this thread. I'm picking Shapo to win Paris.:D

Vampiro has gotten results on hard courts so he gets another clay season. Timmy at WTF will be mildly interesting if he gets the right round robin. Probably needs Federer in his group. Can't decide on Nadal or Djoko. One thing is no doubt Timmy will want Monfils in his Round Robin (wow I can't lose on Shapo match as a Shapo loss may put Thiem's favorite pigeon in WTF.:laughing:) Probably Berrettini best for the burger laden Tim otherwise.
 
gogo

gogo

Legend
Meles said:
The poll on this thread. I'm picking Shapo to win Paris.:D

Vampiro has gotten results on hard courts so he gets another clay season. Timmy at WTF will be mildly interesting if he gets the right round robin. Probably needs Federer in his group. Can't decide on Nadal or Djoko. One thing is no doubt Timmy will want Monfils in his Round Robin (wow I can't lose on Shapo match as a Shapo loss may put Thiem's favorite pigeon in WTF.:laughing:) Probably Berrettini best for the burger laden Tim otherwise.
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Well, that's pretty bold!
I'll just step back to the sidelines and watch. (I hope you're right, but I think it's still a long shot._
 
yokied

yokied

Hall of Fame
Meles said:
The poll on this thread. I'm picking Shapo to win Paris.:D

Vampiro has gotten results on hard courts so he gets another clay season. Timmy at WTF will be mildly interesting if he gets the right round robin. Probably needs Federer in his group. Can't decide on Nadal or Djoko. One thing is no doubt Timmy will want Monfils in his Round Robin (wow I can't lose on Shapo match as a Shapo loss may put Thiem's favorite pigeon in WTF.:laughing:) Probably Berrettini best for the burger laden Tim otherwise.
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Rightyo yes as @gogo says that's a bold claim! I thought you were talking about me voting somewhere. I was just about to say Shapo is playing just as stupidly as ever! He could blaze his way to victory if his FH and serve fire. That if is about as big as they come though. I thought his BH actually looked his best shot Vs Fog. No signs of technical improvement, just improved concentration and shot selection - not too many DTL heroics.

Beretta is on the burgers/pizza/pasta too but he is a bit more stable than Timmy, especially on the FH which is probably the crucial indoor HC shot. I'm kinda amazed both are still standing at this stage but they're still youngish and have had reasonably quiet seasons all things considered.

The best of the bottom 4 at London will be interesting for its implications for AO20 and anything is possible with the big 3 at their ages and given their very slam-heavy seasons. As I said before, I think Novak is tired and has checked out after two slams, the Nadal can smell weakness in the other two and is in vulture mode. Fraud is in great form but god knows where his head is truly at Vs the other two in big matches. About all I'm sure of is I'm as hardcore ABZ as ever after his redonkulous post-win celebration Vs Fraud.
 
EllieK

EllieK

Hall of Fame
Yugram said:
I am actually a bit worried that it’s finally time for Tsitsipas to win a Masters. His serve looks scary good the last 2 matches. Hopefully DimiGOAT takes him out in the Semi.
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Well the Paris Masters is the kiss of death. Jack Sock and Karen Khachanov are proof of that. As a Tsitsipas fan I definitely have mixed feelings. I am loving the way Grigor is playing.
 
ArcspacE

ArcspacE

G.O.A.T.
Greegor's has adopted the Zverev way of hanging some serious gold from his neck in order to summon the good demons

Rumous has it the necklace has Rafa's face on it from the time they went fishing on his yacht

That - or hallpass to the WTA
 
yokied

yokied

Hall of Fame
Grigor's beatdown of Timmy was curious. There were some sick winners, volleys and touch shots in there with some GOAT-tier anticipation and a lot going his way. But Grigor played a tight, sane match with a simple winning mentality more than anything else. A lot of Grigor's quality was from winners-or-FE positions rather than the garden variety winners-or-UE positions he usually operates from.

Timmy was in most rallies, controlling a lot of them and Grigolo's balls weren't that heavy. Grigor's groundies looked the same with his normal slightly wonky swings and connections on both sides. He's always a bit underpowered, spinny and shallow because he's still not planting his final steps right before impact. Tim just crumbled somewhat under the pressure. He panicked when Grigor didn't go away after trading a few groundies, especially BH to BH.

EllieK said:
Youzhny is the reason. He has given Denis confidence and rained in his tendency to go too big too quickly. It is good to see.
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Well he's got a lot more work to do is all I can say. I wish the kid well and don't want to tangle unnecessarily with his mildly militant fans so I'll post here instead of the Shapo news thread.

Right handers with a quality slice will continue to dismantle him because he's still pulling the trigger too early on the FH from all sorts of bizarre positions in a lot of 3-9 shot rallies. It's all well and good to improve the footwork and movement. Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. We can't tell that at this stage of the year. He might look like he's moving better than most of his opponents but they're tired from winning all year while he wasn't... If you're going for inside out FH winners from mid-court balls at knee height and other seriously low percentage shots constantly on shots 3-9, then footwork and GOATing will only get you so far. You're going to miss plenty of them and quality opponents know exactly how to feed you those tempters.

His BH judgment and rallying has noticeably improved though, mixing up the trajectories and velocities nicely Vs Fog and Zed, not pulling the trigger too early and focusing on generating a good clean swing at a decent size target for a lot more balls. That's about the only positive change I have noted that will benefit him when everyone comes back from rest at AO20 with the chips are down.
 
ArcspacE

ArcspacE

G.O.A.T.
Young Artiste has been slicing like a boss so far in Paris

Garin has no answer for the low bounce - getting owned so far
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
tennis4jags said:
Hey Guys, I heard news about Djokovic that, he is down with virus. Is this end for Djokovic to clinch year end number 1 spot?
www.tennis.com

In Paris, a virus threatens Novak Djokovic's chase for year-end No. 1 | Tennis.com

"When I arrived [six days ago], I felt good but since three days ago I caught something," said the world No. 1.
www.tennis.com www.tennis.com

Todays match very important for him against in form Tsitsipas. Lets hope Tsitsi wins!
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If he was sick he wouldn't play. He is healthy. Heard that same stories last year. He complained about a flu at the beginning of Paris 2018. Then it became better and he won 2 good matches against Cilic and Federer. Played very well. It was clear he is fine. But once he lost the final his fans were like "oh wait, he had a flu like 5 days ago. Clearly this is an excuse". That was really funny to read. Khachanov played a great tournament and totally deserved this win.
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Well, instead of facing Medvedev in the semifinals Djokovic is going to face one of the biggest mental midgets on tour. Dimitrov has the game which can trouble Djokovic, but you just know he is going to hit double faults and other unforced errors on the big points.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
StrongRule said:
If he was sick he wouldn't play. He is healthy. Heard that same stories last year. He complained about a flu at the beginning of Paris 2018. Then it became better and he won 2 good matches against Cilic and Federer. Played very well. It was clear he is fine. But once he lost the final his fans were like "oh wait, he had a flu like 5 days ago. Clearly this is an excuse". That was really funny to read. Khachanov played a great tournament and totally deserved this win.
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That excuse came roaring back at the WTF too. Djokovic crushed all his opponents before the final, but because Zverwv beat him, it was "oh wait, he still had not recovered from his flu 2 weeks ago".
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
StrongRule said:
Well, instead of facing Medvedev in the semifinals Djokovic is going to face one of the biggest mental midgets on tour. Dimitrov has the game which can trouble Djokovic, but you just know he is going to hit double faults and other unforced errors on the big points.
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Both Nadal and Djokovic will have easy semis if both of them get there.

Nadal is more of a guarantee than Djokovic.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
StrongRule said:
If he was sick he wouldn't play. He is healthy. Heard that same stories last year. He complained about a flu at the beginning of Paris 2018. Then it became better and he won 2 good matches against Cilic and Federer. Played very well. It was clear he is fine. But once he lost the final his fans were like "oh wait, he had a flu like 5 days ago. Clearly this is an excuse". That was really funny to read. Khachanov played a great tournament and totally deserved this win.
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I never bought the flu excuse. You don't beat a well-serving Federer in a super tight match if your health is compromised.
 
D-Lite

D-Lite

Hall of Fame
mike danny said:
I never bought the flu excuse. You don't beat a well-serving Federer in a super tight match if your health is compromised.
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If you have 'the flu' you are wiped out - you're in bed. It sounds like he has a cold of some kind and it's being mislabelled? I'm actually a fan of Novak, but I don't understand why you'd even attempt to play if you actually had the flu. I know flu season is supposedly starting (I had my flu jab today), but I actually don't know anyone who has had it yet and I live in the UK. I think the temperatures are actually still quite mild on mainland Europe(yeah, just checked - 16 degrees C).
 
RF-18

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
mike danny said:
That excuse came roaring back at the WTF too. Djokovic crushed all his opponents before the final, but because Zverwv beat him, it was "oh wait, he still had not recovered from his flu 2 weeks ago".
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It's a fact that he had some sort of condition last year and thus year he has aswell. Listen to his voice. So it's just a fact.
 
topher

topher

Hall of Fame
mike danny said:
Both Nadal and Djokovic will have easy semis if both of them get there.

Nadal is more of a guarantee than Djokovic.
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Idk, Shapo isn't a great matchup for Rafa. Left-hander with good serve on fast, low-bouncing courts. Monfils would have the crowd on his side, never know.

Anyways, he needs to beat Tsonga first, so who cares.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
RF-18 said:
It's a fact that he had some sort of condition last year and thus year he has aswell. Listen to his voice. So it's just a fact.
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We'll find out today against Tsitsipas.

But last year he was fine. You don't beat a well-serving Federer if your health is compromised.
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
I think it's clear Djokovic is 100% healthy. He is playing very well. Tsitsipas on the other hand is already gifting lots of points.
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
ROFL. How can people take Tsitsipas seriously is beyond me. What a pathetic mug. Two double faults in a row to get broken. :-D :-D :-D :-D

I'm turning it off, the match is already over. Well, Djokovic again gets the YE#1. Nadal has to pay for his terrible clay court season. All he is missing is that 640 extra points he should have gotten from Monte Carlo.
 
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