8.0 Mixed Ratings Combinations 4.5/3.5

[Chelsie1]

Recently read a blog stating that an 8.0 mixed team consisting of a 4.5 man/3.5 woman usually win about 61% of the time when they play against two 4.0s. Why do you think that would be the case?

The blog went on to state that against a 4.5 woman/3.5 man, the team with the 4.5 man would win about 87% of the time-which makes sense to me. In addition, the 4.5 woman/3.5 man would win about 53% of the time against two 4.0s.

What is it about the 4.5 man that would make it difficult for two 4.0s? Is he really that good or is it the 3.5 woman who is making the difference? Or are the 4.0s not using the best strategy. Would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

 

[kevrol]

Avg 4.5 man is a stronger player than the average 4.5 woman.

 

[ace18]

My experience with 8.0 combo has been a little different. Where I play, typically a 4.0/4.0 combo will be the strongest combo. I also like a 3.5 Guy/4.5 Girl combo better than a 4.5 guy/3.5 girl combo if the girl is a true 3.5. IMO, a team with a better woman win the mixed match. If you have a 4.5 woman and 3.5 man, they can both pick on the 3.5 woman and can be pretty assured that the 4.5 man doesn't see the ball. I've been there plenty of times.

This doesn't seem to support the statistics, but from what I've run into in Georgia USTA, this is my opinion.

 

[RetroSpin]

Recently read a blog stating that an 8.0 mixed team consisting of a 4.5 man/3.5 woman usually win about 61% of the time when they play against two 4.0s. Why do you think that would be the case?

The blog went on to state that against a 4.5 woman/3.5 man, the team with the 4.5 man would win about 87% of the time-which makes sense to me. In addition, the 4.5 woman/3.5 man would win about 53% of the time against two 4.0s.

What is it about the 4.5 man that would make it difficult for two 4.0s? Is he really that good or is it the 3.5 woman who is making the difference? Or are the 4.0s not using the best strategy. Would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

I think it is because a man who is a full half level stronger can dominate play. The 4.0 man would have trouble returning the 4.5's serve, but isn't likely to have a big enough serve himself to dominate the 3.5 woman.

 

[Getting_Closer]

I have been in the 8.0 mixed league for quite a few years now. I would echo what ace18 stated above. The key is that 3.5 girl. Our team are somewhat consistently ranked the second best in the region, (on average,10 teams each season). It is that one team that aims for national playoff we always lose to. The team grabs the college girls who have no record in the league and self rated 3.5. They strategically make the match score close so no one would notice their true competitive level. You know they are good because they just win all the critical points.

A different scenario that we encounter to is that a 4.5 man are usually physically fit and covers a lot. He only asks the girl to stand by the net and he will cover the rest. With his pace and good placement, we always have a difficult time to handle it.

 

[J0EBL0W]

I've played 8.0 for awhile and it seems having the strongest player on the court is a large advantage. In the 4.5M/3.5W vs 4.0/4.0 you generally have a 4.5 male who will hold serve every time and then be extremely annoying at the net on their partners serve even if it's a 3.5W serve. Most people can't crush slow serves for winners consistently at the 4.0 level. The key is that not all 3.5W are created equal. Some 3.5W are great at Women's but aren't great at mixed and some are great at mixed and not at Women's.

As a 4.5 guy I can think of a couple 3.5 partners that I've had who weren't considered good at Women's tennis and never got bumped up, but in mixed they can block back a guys pace and can lob past net players giving me a chance to end the points. I've also had 3.5 partners who've crushed their opponents in women's matches by hitting great shots. Then they play mixed with me and try to hit winners of heavy shots from men and end up missing everything.

So to summarize and answer the OP, the 4.5M/3.5W combo is best because of the dominance of the male player paired with consistency of the female player.

 

[tennisjon]

I am a 4.5 and play a ton of mixed doubles. I have only lost twice to a 4.0/4.0 combo and in those cases, both players were bumped up the following year. I find a 4.5M/3.5W combo the toughest, followed by a 4.5W/3.5M. In all but one 8.0 match that I can remember, was I not the strongest player on the court. I can impose my power, spin, and knowledge of point construction. My partner just has to put balls into play and put away easy volleys. In the cases of 4.5M/3.5W, you have another player with a strong game that can make breaking serve difficult, but I am still stronger. In the case of 4.5W/3.5M, then although the woman may not have the serve of a 4.5M, the 3.5M can make up for it by being stronger than a 3.5W would ever be. When its 4.0/4.0, I can pick on both players. Both have legit claims on balls down the middle, which can make their communication an important aspect of competing. Also, both serves tend to become breakable as opposed to just the 3.5.

 

[BeyondTheTape]

Back in my 3.5 days in 8.0 Mixed, My 4.5W partner and i went 8-0 and only lost one set. The only set taken off us was a 4.5M (teaching pro) /3.5W combo.

3 of the 8 matches were vs. 4.5W and 3.5M..none were as challenging as facing the 4.5M/3.5W combo.

 

[anubis]

Recently read a blog stating that an 8.0 mixed team consisting of a 4.5 man/3.5 woman usually win about 61% of the time when they play against two 4.0s. Why do you think that would be the case?

The blog went on to state that against a 4.5 woman/3.5 man, the team with the 4.5 man would win about 87% of the time-which makes sense to me. In addition, the 4.5 woman/3.5 man would win about 53% of the time against two 4.0s.

What is it about the 4.5 man that would make it difficult for two 4.0s? Is he really that good or is it the 3.5 woman who is making the difference? Or are the 4.0s not using the best strategy. Would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

Definitely, yes. Every match I've ever played vs. a 4.5 has resulted in a loss, usually with at least one bagel set. I've never played with a strong enough 4.0 woman to counter balance my weaknesses.

 

[Startzel]

What is it about the 4.5 man that would make it difficult for two 4.0s? Is he really that good

A 4.5 playing at 8.0 is most likely sandbagging. So he's really a 5.0 and that's too much for a 4.0 to handle.

 

[tennisjon]

A 4.5 playing at 8.0 is most likely sandbagging. So he's really a 5.0 and that's too much for a 4.0 to handle.

Actually, no. I have rarely encountered the guys who I know are top 4.5 players/potential 5.0s at 8.0. They really can't be bothered. At 9.0, you may find more of those guys, but a lot of those really high 4.5s don't play mixed, which is why I win so much at 8.0.

 

[Chelsie1]

Thanks to all for your insight. I play in 8.0 mixed leagues three times a year. It used be my 4.0 partner and I could run the 4.5M to death as he covered his partner and we would take over when he got tired. That does not seem to be the case as much. More recently, the strong 4.5M has become the 500 lb gorilla. In addition, the 3.5W often get bumped up the next year, attesting to their consistency. We do have a bunch of strong 4.5M around here who primarily play mixed-playing just enough matches in other leagues to stay at 4.5--so I would not be at all surprised if there are sandbaggers. In the first of the two 8.0 matches I played last year at Sectionals against a 4.5M/3.5W, the 4.5M toyed with me-his returns made me hit up or parted my hair, his serves resulted in weak returns, and his volleys and overheads were usually winners- while the 3.5 woman stood her ground at the net and put way easy balls. In the second match the man gained control of all floaters and lobs as the woman held her ground from the baseline. Both of the guys were young (30/40). My basic strategy, of course, is to not let the man touch the ball, but these guys are skilled, mobile and looking for opportunities. Recently, I've started coming in after every serve and return and that actually does seem to help. At least I don't get in a battle with the man or give him a chance to cut off my floaty pushes. I'm working this year to hit better serves, returns, drives, volleys and overheads. Hopefully, good times lie ahead! By the way, Getting Closer, 3.5 & 4.0 self-rates frequently get Googled around here and grievances are filed. We had a 24 year old woman who played and won in the NCAA Division 3 National Championships two years in a row who self-rated at 4.0. She played singles and dropped donuts and breadsticks on strong 4.0 women. Then she played 8.0 mixed. She got away with it because no one in her district made any inquiries and it only came to light after she had received a 4.5 computer rating and would have played at Tri-Level Sectionals as a 4.0. There ought to be a law! But that is another topic.....!

 

[NumbersGuy]

I took a look at the data from our local leagues last year. 256 matches involving 8.0 pairs vs. 8.0 pairs where at least one pair was 4.5/3.5. Here’s what I found:

4.5M/3.5W vs. 4.0/4.0: 120-57 (68%)

4.5W/3.5M vs. 4.0/4.0: 13-24 (35%)

4.5M/3.5W vs. 3.5W/4.5M: 5-3 (63% but not likely enough data to be meaningful).

Perhaps every locality is different, and of course specific individuals and skill sets (and position within the rating’s range) will have better results than others, but this is what my local data say in terms of averages.

 

[Govnor]

I think it's fairly obvious why this is the best combo. You have by far the best player on the court. That's a huge deal.

 

[ewcrider]

From the matches I analyzed before heading to 8.0 sectionals/districts last year, there were 251 8.0 v 8.0 matches. Here are the stats:
4.5 M v 4.5 M: 32-32
4.5 M v 4.0 M: 69-23 (75%)
4.5 M v 3.5 M: 7-3 (70%)
4.0 M v 4.0 M: 87-87
4.0 M v 3.5 M: 19-11 (63%)
3.5 M v 3.5 M: 0-0
note1: by convention, X v X must have an even record because a single match counts as both a win and a loss.
note2: not a single match between two 3.5 men.

 

[kylebarendrick]

Actually, no. I have rarely encountered the guys who I know are top 4.5 players/potential 5.0s at 8.0. They really can't be bothered. At 9.0, you may find more of those guys, but a lot of those really high 4.5s don't play mixed, which is why I win so much at 8.0.

And I have seen the opposite, including one local 8.0 team that had four former 5.0 guys playing on it.

I think regardless of the ratings (4/4, 4.5/3.5, etc.) teams with both players at the top of their levels will do better than teams with a weaker player. A weak 4.5 man won't be able to carry his 3.5 partner, etc.

 

[J_R_B]

Me and my 3.5 partner did MUCH better last year as a 4.0/3.5 team than we are this year as a 4.5/3.5 team. Explain that one...

 

[Perrotoro]

High/low 3.5's

If a highly competitive 4.5 watches for partners that got bumped down from 4.0 to 3.5, that's a certain strong court. I guess all of you have at least a few cases of that - right?

 

[Shroud]

I just started playing a mixed 8.0 league. The first match our team had a 4.5m/3.5w pair playing a 4.0/4.0 pair. I was playing 4.0/4.0 on the next court and they were finished before our 1st set was over. It was bagels.

This week I got paired with his 3.5 partner and I can see why they could have won. She was solidly consistent and the 4.5 easily would dominate on his serve (warmed up with him and at least for me, that post about a 4.0m having trouble with the 4.5 serve seems true) and at the net.

Heck a 4.5s consistency alone has to be worth several games.

 

[g4driver]

My experience with 8.0 combo has been a little different. Where I play, typically a 4.0/4.0 combo will be the strongest combo. I also like a 3.5 Guy/4.5 Girl combo better than a 4.5 guy/3.5 girl combo if the girl is a true 3.5. IMO, a team with a better woman win the mixed match. If you have a 4.5 woman and 3.5 man, they can both pick on the 3.5 woman and can be pretty assured that the 4.5 man doesn't see the ball. I've been there plenty of times.

This doesn't seem to support the statistics, but from what I've run into in Georgia USTA, this is my opinion.

I have the same experience as you. The key is getting the strongest 3.5 guys matched with very strong 4.5 ladys. The average 3.5 guy isn't going to beat the 4.5 guy/3.5 lady because the average 3.5 guy makes too many errors. Even the average 4.0 guy makes too many errors to beat a 4.5 guy/ 3.5 lady. So basically, it comes down to getting a non-pushing type very strong 3.5 guy who is also consistent. That is the key to beating 4.5 men/3.5 IMO.

When I was a 3.5 playing with 4.5 women at 8.0, I never lost a single match to a 4.5 man/3.5. Of course, I had outstanding 4.5 female partners. Two of my 3.5 friends who play with 4.5 women have multiple wins over 4.5 men/3.5 women.

Why?

One of my 4.5 teammates who was bumped to 5.0 this year said the strong 3.5 men / strong 4.5 women gave him more problems than any 4.0 / 4.0 combo. The reason was while they weren't ever going to break his serve, the stronger 3.5 guys were able to hold serve and his female 3.5 partner had trouble holding her serve. The 3.5 guy / 4.5 lady is the most balanced of all courts, when you find a consistent and very strong 3.5 guy who doesn't make a lot of errors and he is simply waiting for the USTA's slow DNTRP to reflect his actual skill level.

 

[g4driver]

And I have seen the opposite, including one local 8.0 team that had four former 5.0 guys playing on it.

I think regardless of the ratings (4/4, 4.5/3.5, etc.) teams with both players at the top of their levels will do better than teams with a weaker player. A weak 4.5 man won't be able to carry his 3.5 partner, etc.

Exactly. I don't care what a player's rating is. I going for the weakest spot on the court. And I could care less what my rating was / is.

The vanity of a rating is worthless when the opponents simply want to win and figure out how to do it.

 

[Chelsie1]

Update!

Played a league match yesterday against a 4.5M/3.5W. The man seemed more like a steady singles player. Rarely did he attempt to cut off any floaters through the middle. He was content to rally, relatively slowly, with me and I was content to lob his partner and move in. Then he let me lob my returns over his head without moving back to cover. Could be he's still learning how to play mixed, but his partner sure got to hit a lot of balls! The 4.5 guys at Sectionals didn't let anything float and they made something happen when they touched the ball.

 

[Alchemy-Z]

the higher I move up I notice guy's either play Just Men's or just mixed and not both.

for whatever reason the mixed guys tend to be on the heavy side and not great movers...just bomb serves and forehands

 

[KFwinds]

Played a league match yesterday against a 4.5M/3.5W. The man seemed more like a steady singles player. Rarely did he attempt to cut off any floaters through the middle. He was content to rally, relatively slowly, with me and I was content to lob his partner and move in. Then he let me lob my returns over his head without moving back to cover. Could be he's still learning how to play mixed, but his partner sure got to hit a lot of balls! The 4.5 guys at Sectionals didn't let anything float and they made something happen when they touched the ball.

Don't get too excited about that; from what you describe that guy sounds pretty weak for a 4.5. He also sounds pretty inexperienced at mixed doubles. This is not typical for a male 4.5 - even decent 3.5 men who play mixed know that the man needs to dominate the court (and more specifically the net) to be successful.

I would love to watch one of these matches that a few people here are describing where the 3.5M/4.5W are a successful team. In the Chicago area the 4.0 men are better than most 4.5 women, and many of the 4.5 men are teaching pros. The best 8.0 teams around here are built with several strong 4.5M/3.5W combos. The 4.5 men dominate, with the 3.5 women needing only to be strong enough to keep balls in play until the guy can get his racquet on the ball - then it's game over...

 

[Chelsie1]

Don't get too excited about that; from what you describe that guy sounds pretty weak for a 4.5. He also sounds pretty inexperienced at mixed doubles. This is not typical for a male 4.5 - even decent 3.5 men who play mixed know that the man needs to dominate the court (and more specifically the net) to be successful.

I would love to watch one of these matches that a few people here are describing where the 3.5M/4.5W are a successful team. In the Chicago area the 4.0 men are better than most 4.5 women, and many of the 4.5 men are teaching pros. The best 8.0 teams around here are built with several strong 4.5M/3.5W combos. The 4.5 men dominate, with the 3.5 women needing only to be strong enough to keep balls in play until the guy can get his racquet on the ball - then it's game over...

Sorry. Too late! We won--I was excited. LOL! We could have lost. But I agree, he did not seem to be the best doubles player, but that's on him. We did our job. Anyhoooo---around here, as well, many of the best 8.0 teams consist of strong 4.5M and steady 3.5W. My mission, however, is to find a way to beat whoever shows up.:grin: Playing on.... and the best to you!

 

[KFwinds]

Sorry. Too late! We won--I was excited. LOL! We could have lost. But I agree, he did not seem to be the best doubles player, but that's on him. We did our job. Anyhoooo---around here, as well, many of the best 8.0 teams consist of strong 4.5M and steady 3.5W. My mission, however, is to find a way to beat whoever shows up.:grin: Playing on.... and the best to you!

That's a great way to look at it Chelsie - Congrats on your win!

 

[g4driver]

I would love to watch one of these matches that a few people here are describing where the 3.5M/4.5W are a successful team. In the Chicago area the 4.0 men are better than most 4.5 women, and many of the 4.5 men are teaching pros. The best 8.0 teams around here are built with several strong 4.5M/3.5W combos. The 4.5 men dominate, with the 3.5 women needing only to be strong enough to keep balls in play until the guy can get his racquet on the ball - then it's game over...

KFwinds,

I too was curious about these 3.5 Men/ 4.5 Women records so I went back to looked up two very specific 3.5 guys who played with 4.5 women.

One 3.5 guy was 5-1 vs 4.0/4.0 and 2-0 vs 4.5 Men/3.5 Women. The only loss he took at 8.0 was at 1 doubles in a 10 PT TB, because the Captain played herself at 1 when she is one of the two weakest 4.5 women on the team.

The other guy went 2-3 versus 4.5 men and 1-1 vs 4.0 men/women. One of the 4.5 women he played with twice was bumped down to 4.0. Two of his wins vs the 4.5 men/ 3.5 women were 3&1 and 1&0 while one of the three losses to a 4.5 guy was in a 10 PT TB.

Between these two 3.5 guys, their record was 4-3 vs 4.5 Men/3.5 Women and 6-2 vs 4.0 Men/Women. One other 3.5 on the team went 1-1 vs 4.5 Men/3.5 women, but I didn't look any further into his record.

Personally, I would take the guy with the worse 8.0 Mixed record as my 4.0 partner over the guy with the better record. I have played with all three of the guys and only one of them was bumped to 4.0 and it wasn't the guy with the best record.