Are fast flat serves and getting top speed overrated?

a12345

Professional
Sometimes when we serve, we search for the holy grail pin point flat serve that shoots like a bullet into the service box and gets the ace. And in general we think flat fast serve first to take a chance, and a spin serve for safety in the second serve.

However some of the best serves in the game have heavy spin on the first serve. Take this article about Pete Sampras:

The Sampras Serve: The Heaviest and the Greatest?
By John Yandell

Sampras' motion frame by frame.

If you watched any of the recent exhibitions between all-time greats Roger Federer and Pete Sampras you were probably amazed at the effectiveness of Sampras’ serve. The fast courts were to Sampras’ advantage, but it was obvious that even at age 36 his delivery is still amazing.
Federer has made a habit of neutralizing Andy Roddick’s 140-mph serve with his phenomenal returns. But against Sampras, Federer struggled to put the ball in play and many of his returns appeared uncharacteristically weak. Sampras’ ball somehow just looked different—it appeared much “heavier” than the top servers in the current pro game. Was that an illusion? Or is there really something unique in his motion that makes his serve different?

I think the answer is yes. To explore how Sampras hits a heavy ball, let’s start with some research into the relationship between speed and spin in his motion. Then we’ll look more at the motion itself, using high-speed video footage filmed at another exhibition match, this one versus Sam Querrey at the Tiburon Peninsula Club in Marin County, Calif. We’ll see several distinctive elements that explain the quality of Sampras’ ball and his success against Federer. These unique components in his motion make Sampras’ serve one of the greatest, if not the greatest, of all time.

Heavy Ball

Speed and Spin

Research based on quantitative filming in actual match play reveals that Sampras achieves phenomenal spin rates. This is what sets his serve apart. It’s probably best understood as a high-velocity kick.
Throughout his career, the speed on his first serve typically ranged between 115 mph and 130 mph—fast, but not the fastest even in his own day. What distinguished his delivery was the total amount of spin, and especially the type of spin, compared to other pros. Research shows that Sampras was averaging over 2500 rpm of total spin on his first serve. That’s a phenomenal amount of rotation. It’s 50 percent more spin than many other servers with similar velocities. Just rev up the tachometer on your car to 2500 rpm if you want to feel how much force this involves.

The research also shows that as important, or more important than the total amount of spin is the type of spin. Of particular importance is the topspin component. First, it’s important to realize that a pure topspin serve is a myth. The research conclusively demonstrates that the majority of the spin on all serves is sidespin.

Yet we found that on average, Sampras’ topspin component was 35 percent, much higher than other servers we measured. To use the familiar analogy of a clock face, his ball was spinning from 8 o’clock to 2 o’clock. This diagonal was steeper than any other player we studied. So the factors that make Sampras’ serve appear different are more total spin, and especially, more topspin. The higher topspin component means that the ball is significantly higher and heavier at the time of the return. The data showed that Sampras’ serve bounced six inches higher than a serve hit at the same speed with a smaller topspin component. The ball height at the moment of the return could be above five feet. That puts the ball at about shoulder height for a player who is six feet tall.

Sampras’ serve also was literally heavier because it was spinning up to 20 percent faster after the bounce. The physics of the ball bounce on the court surface are complex. But, suffice it to say, a ball coming into the bounce with more topspin will interact with the court differently, conserve more of the energy in the serve, and leave the court with additional spin compared to a ball at a similar speed but with more sidespin.
This is the secret of the so-called “heavy” serve and why Sampras’ ball just looks different. The total amount of spin and the relatively high amount of topspin make the return much tougher because the ball is bouncing higher and spinning significantly faster at contact. A former tour player once compared trying to return Sampras’ serve to trying to return a bowling ball. To him it seemed physically impossible with a tennis racquet.

The Motion

How does Sampras produce this unique ball? For starters, look at the depth of his racquet drop. The racquet falls along his right side and the face of the racquet is on a plane that is perpendicular to his torso. Notice how his upper arm is almost in line with his shoulder. This shows his tremendous shoulder flexibility.

Now watch the action of the hitting arm frame by frame going up to the ball. The elbow extends. Then five or six frames before the contact, watch the hand and racquet start to turn into the shot. As this rotation progresses the wrist moves from a laid back to the neutral position at contact.

Now the hand and arm rotation continues into the follow-through, rotating primarily as a unit from the shoulder joint. The extent of Sampras’ arm rotation, typically referred to as “pronation,” is incredible, easily 90 degrees after contact.

Ball Position

The key to the topspin is the placement of Sampras’ toss. Compared to most other top servers, his toss is further to his left and closer to the edge of his head at contact. His motion to the ball, then, is more radically upward with his hand and racquet. This explains the “high” elbow position in his motion as well. The arm releases and bends sooner than in a motion that is moving more from left to right.

Knee Bend and Torso Rotation

Two other important factors contribute to the total energy that gets transferred into this 125 mph super-heavy kick delivery: Sampras’ incredible body rotation and the explosive uncoiling of his legs.


Coil and Knee Bend

Sampras starts his motion with his shoulders basically square to the baseline, but during his windup he turns off the ball as far as any player in the game since John McEnroe. This body turn is key to understanding his massive combination of velocity and spin. Because he turns so far, Sampras naturally gets tremendous leverage when he rotates back into the ball. The amount of body turn is directly related to his stance. If you draw an imaginary line across his toes, and another imaginary line across the front of his chest, they are essentially parallel at the completion of the turn. Put another way, the angle of his stance corresponds to the angle of his body at the completion of his turn.
Sampras’ turn also aids disguise. Federer commented after one of the exhibition matches that he could not read Sampras’ serve. Like McEnroe before him, the radical forward body rotation into contact probably disguises the path of the racquet, a critical factor given the micro-fine timing required to hit the modern pro return. His disguise is probably also related to that ball position at contact. Incredibly, Sampras is able to hit to anywhere in the service box with the left-positioned toss.

Legs

The footage shows that Sampras still has that same tremendous knee bend—the second factor in adding energy to his delivery. But it’s important to understand that the coiling of the legs really only begins after he has released the toss.

Note that as the toss arm is going up, he is standing almost straight up with just a little flex in the knees and his weight appears equally distributed on his feet. As the tossing arm continues to extend, he begins to drop his weight, bending his knees and then shifting the majority of the weight onto the left front foot.

The completion of the knee bend coincidences with the completion of the turn, and with the full extension of the tossing arm. The legs, hips and shoulders all uncoil as he launches upward into the ball and outward over the court. The ball is tossed in front, but note that the actual position of the racquet when it strikes the ball is just at the front edge of the body—roughly even with the front of his face.

The explosive full body motion, full racquet drop, incredibly flexible shoulder, and ball position are the factors that account for the incredible weight of shot, or “heaviness,” that surprised Federer. The fact is that Sampras still serves as well or better than any player in the current game—and probably in the history of tennis.

Sampras use to get lots of spin on his first serves which created a heavy ball. Federer does the same thing, you rarely see him hit a really flat fast first serve. Federer and Sampras' average serve speed is not super fast. But they hit pin point serves that are just "heavy" and difficult to return.

Perhaps if youre tall like Isner or explosive like Roddick the flat serve is your go to first serve weapon.

Yet the likes of Sampras and Fed are known to have the ideal serves if you could choose one, and that involves a lot more spin on the first serve to make it a heavy serve. Im not talking about the slice serve out wide on the first serve but that accurate weighty serve as the bread and butter go to serve that they use all the time. Its not flat like a bullet but curled in with pace.
 
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bitcoinoperated

Professional
Variety might be more important. I'm not sure I buy the 'heavy ball' stuff, a spin serve is going to be harder to hit perhaps because of the extra variable involved, you see this with football players taking shots at the goal.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
I almost never hit flat serves so that doesnt hold true for me.
Always slice or topspin for more margin and harder to time for opponent.
Flat serve is overrated unless ur really tall.
 
Pace of spin serves is also dependent on racket speed. Sure, you don't need a flat serve as some clay courters made the top30 with 80% kickers on first serves but those guys have 95-100 mph kick serves. A 100 mph kicker is tougher to return than a 75 mph kicker and you won't serve a 100 mph kicker unless you have the RHS to hit 120 mph flat.

And even the kick serve only Spanish players of the 90s and 00s would occasionally drop a flat one down the T similar to a pitcher throwing a change up to keep the returner honest and from cheating too much.
 

a12345

Professional
The heavy serve is almost a mixture of a flat serve, top spin and side spin all in one. Top spin and side spin together you could argue is brushing diagonally and characterised as a kick serve.

But the heavy "go to" serve doesnt have a big loop to it. So it could be maybe considered as a hybrid between a flat and kickserve. It is arrowed in but has a slight diagonal arc to the shot.

% wise it maybe 80-90% flat, 10-20% kick.

Now you could argue a flat serve is never really flat theres always some degree of spin but the above percentages is maybe how to think of it. The Fed and Sampras style serve incorporate a bit more spin than the powerful blasters, in their standard serve.
 

ubercat

Hall of Fame
Depends on the ROS. If they are good at standing behind the baseline and just redirecting pace it won't be effective. If you are playing decent players and serve the same thing all the time whatever it is they will lock in eventually. Unless your name is Federer.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
The only serve that's overrated in recreational tennis is any one that clips the lines, especially at high speed. It is as good as out. Or worse, they become a reason for people to quit games.
 

spun_out

Semi-Pro
Sometimes when we serve, we search for the holy grail pin point flat serve that shoots like a bullet into the service box and gets the ace. And in general we think flat fast serve first to take a chance, and a spin serve for safety in the second serve.

However some of the best serves in the game have heavy spin on the first serve. Take this article about Pete Sampras:



Sampras use to get lots of spin on his first serves which created a heavy ball. Federer does the same thing, you rarely see him hit a really flat fast first serve. Federer and Sampras' average serve speed is not super fast. But they hit pin point serves that are just "heavy" and difficult to return.

Perhaps if youre tall like Isner or explosive like Roddick the flat serve is your go to first serve weapon.

Yet the likes of Sampras and Fed are known to have the ideal serves if you could choose one, and that involves a lot more spin on the first serve to make it a heavy serve. Im not talking about the slice serve out wide on the first serve but that accurate weighty serve as the bread and butter go to serve that they use all the time. Its not flat like a bullet but curled in with pace.

wait, are you saying that you can hit flat serves that are like bullets? because if you can't, then your question isn't valid.
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
Sometimes when we serve, we search for the holy grail pin point flat serve that shoots like a bullet into the service box and gets the ace. And in general we think flat fast serve first to take a chance, and a spin serve for safety in the second serve.

However some of the best serves in the game have heavy spin on the first serve. Take this article about Pete Sampras:



Sampras use to get lots of spin on his first serves which created a heavy ball. Federer does the same thing, you rarely see him hit a really flat fast first serve. Federer and Sampras' average serve speed is not super fast. But they hit pin point serves that are just "heavy" and difficult to return.

Perhaps if youre tall like Isner or explosive like Roddick the flat serve is your go to first serve weapon.

Yet the likes of Sampras and Fed are known to have the ideal serves if you could choose one, and that involves a lot more spin on the first serve to make it a heavy serve. Im not talking about the slice serve out wide on the first serve but that accurate weighty serve as the bread and butter go to serve that they use all the time. Its not flat like a bullet but curled in with pace.

In the realm of mere mortals - that's us - a flat serve doesn't land in all that much. I coach high school teams and even the decent players often waste too many first serves by trying to land a flat bullet. The most successful local team has a coach who insists that all his players use spin/kick serves all the time. They never double fault, the bounces of their serves are rather unpredictable with that spin (tough to return), and they have a LOT of titles to show for their efforts.

I was in love with my flat serve several years ago until I finally realized that any opponent with decent hands just had to redirect my pace. It didn't matter how big I tried to hit the ball because those players could just turn it against me. This was happening in the middle of a doubles match when the lightbulb went on in my head (after being broken for maybe the second time). I switched to heavy spin serves and my partner and I pulled off a three set comeback. One of those golden moments that taught me an important lesson.

A flat serve is good because as our pals mentioned above, it's a different pace than a heavy spinner and it can keep opponents off balance (as long as it goes in). If we approach our serving sort of like a smart baseball pitcher, we don't need overwhelming velocity so much as a significant difference between that flat serve and a spinner.

One note about Roger Federer: As far as I know, the disguise that the Fed man has with his serves is considered to be among the very best of all time (sort of like those crafty pitchers). If you've ever been on the receiving end of a 115-120 mph serve, then you know that it's almost overwhelmingly fast. Roger's peers are extremely quick, so they can get a racquet on some of those serves, especially when they can read an opponent's service motion and get a jump on the ball.

Not the case with Roger's serve. Opponents can't start setting up to return his ball until after it leaves his racquet. That makes his serves as tough to catch up to as the bigger hitters who can crack it at 130+. It takes time and effort to develop decent disguise, but it's invaluable for servers at every level.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Since I don't have an overpowering flat serve, I have to use variety and placement in my service game. I basically use 3 serves: Flat serve to the BH, Slice serve to the FH and Topspin second serve. I win a large percentage of my service games because a) I can hit them consistently and b) the variation in bounce and spin makes it hard to dial in.

When I face the hard flat server, he usually gets a quick first serve game against me until I get a feel for his pace. But then I get comfortable and pretty soon I'm getting good returns surfing the pace.
The guy that really gets me is the player that hits with spin and pace and placement. Those guys are the best servers I face and always a challenge. They are generally above my pay grade.

Spin, Pace and Placement are the keys to serving. Hit with all 3 and you are usually 4.5+. Hit with 2/3 you are usually 4.0 or high 3.5. Hit with only one of those 3 characteristics and your re usually 3.0 or low 3.5.
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
These are two separate questions.

Flat serves are not overrated at all.

Top speed can very well be though. If your top speed is 88 and you want to serve 105 flats, that's probably not overrated.

But if you are serving flats at 105-110 already, and focusing on getting more MPH, when your second serve is hot garbage then the answer is yes.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
These are two separate questions.

Flat serves are not overrated at all.

Top speed can very well be though. If your top speed is 88 and you want to serve 105 flats, that's probably not overrated.

But if you are serving flats at 105-110 already, and focusing on getting more MPH, when your second serve is hot garbage then the answer is yes.

I think its not so much that the hard flat first serve is overrated, it's that the solid second serve is underrated.

Despite the dictum that "You are only as good as your second serve", too many rec players focus solely on the big first serve and neglect the second serve.

I face these guys all the time in 3.5 world. Really solid first serve but no pace, spin or placement on the second serve. They get broken whenever they start missing that hard first serve, which is pretty often.
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
I think its not so much that the hard flat first serve is overrated, it's that the solid second serve is underrated.

Despite the dictum that "You are only as good as your second serve", too many rec players focus solely on the big first serve and neglect the second serve.

I face these guys all the time in 3.5 world. Really solid first serve but no pace, spin or placement on the second serve. They get broken whenever they start missing that hard first serve, which is pretty often.


The hard flat serve is also overrated. Ive faced 115-120 flat. Ive also faced the same speed with spin on it. The latter is miles more difficult to prepare for and return.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
The hard flat serve is also overrated. Ive faced 115-120 flat. Ive also faced the same speed with spin on it. The latter is miles more difficult to prepare for and return.

I agree, I play with some juniors in groups sometimes, not top juniors at all, but they are good obviously having played tennis since 5.
One guy has a very strong flat serve, while another one has a ton of spin specially slice often.
The flat serve from guy 1 is faster, even tho the 2nd guy serve is still fast but not quite as fast.
The flat serve is much easier to return and to get the timing and racquet and good contact on it.
The spinny slicey serve from the 2nd guy is incredibly annoying and also different amounts of spin on it, it spins away or into you or up in ways that are very difficult to read accurately and make clean solid contact on it.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
The hard flat serve is also overrated. Ive faced 115-120 flat. Ive also faced the same speed with spin on it. The latter is miles more difficult to prepare for and return.

Agree but as I said in an earlier post the number of variables you master (Pace, spin and placement) generally reflects your tennis skill level. If you master pace and spin, you are probably 1.0 NTRP higher than the master of pace alone.

The greater question is: Is the 100 mph flat serve more of a weapon than the 70 mph spin serve? I think they are a lot closer to equal than any rec player would want to admit. Especially if the 70 mph spin serve has a lower fault percentage.
 

MarTennis

Semi-Pro
Sometimes when we serve, we search for the holy grail pin point flat serve that shoots like a bullet into the service box and gets the ace. And in general we think flat fast serve first to take a chance, and a spin serve for safety in the second serve.

However some of the best serves in the game have heavy spin on the first serve. Take this article about Pete Sampras:



Sampras use to get lots of spin on his first serves which created a heavy ball. Federer does the same thing, you rarely see him hit a really flat fast first serve. Federer and Sampras' average serve speed is not super fast. But they hit pin point serves that are just "heavy" and difficult to return.

Perhaps if youre tall like Isner or explosive like Roddick the flat serve is your go to first serve weapon.

Yet the likes of Sampras and Fed are known to have the ideal serves if you could choose one, and that involves a lot more spin on the first serve to make it a heavy serve. Im not talking about the slice serve out wide on the first serve but that accurate weighty serve as the bread and butter go to serve that they use all the time. Its not flat like a bullet but curled in with pace.
All serves spin off the bounce. it is some factor other than purposeful application of spin that makes those serves heavy.
 

Max G.

Legend
If you have good serve technique, you will be able to trade off spin and pace to a pretty large extent.

If you're talking about getting a lot better, it really doesn't make sense to worry about "do you want to work on your pace or your spin" - doesn't matter, if you get more of one you'll be able to get more of the other.

If you're serve is basically as good as it's gonna get, then you can worry about how to trade off spin and pace - maybe hit a little safer with more spin/less pace, or go for something flat with less spin... it's a tactical decision. And of course at the end of the day some guys are gonna be able to get a bit more pace or spin than others.

But for rec guys, the answer of "Which one is more important" is kind of irrelevant. You want both, and working on technique overall will get you both.
 

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
One point to consider in where the speed/spin trade off should be. When we filmed for the first time at the Open we saw Pete was around 120mph with over 2000rpms. Other 120mph serves were 1200-1500rpm.
Remember Michael Chang? He got an extended racket and decided he was gonna hit 120mph too. And he did. Just at 40%. When we filmed his spin rate it was 500-800rpm.
There is probably no exact science to this. Height, topspin to side spin ratios, and of course technique all play a part.
But if you are serving 120mph or even 100mph at 40% that's is an indication to alter the speed spin balance.
At lower levels, years ago I had a girls player who could hit faster than anyone on our team. She was very proud of that but I almost never saw her get one in on a pressure point in a match. I tried to get her to hit more spin, but when she started crying I gave up.
 
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