Armstrong drops fight against doping charges

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Bartelby, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    USADA will almost certainly treat Armstrong's decision as an admission of guilt and hang the label of drug cheat on an athlete who was a hero to thousands for overcoming life-threatening testicular cancer and for his foundation's support for cancer research.

    The agency can impose a lifetime ban and recommend Armstrong be stripped of his titles. That would put the question in the hands of the International Cycling Union, which has disputed USADA's authority to pursue the investigation, and Tour de France officials, who have had a *****ly relationship with Armstrong over the years.





    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/24/lance-armstrong-fight-doping-charges
     
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  2. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/lance-armstrong-faces-big-decision-165515351--spt.html

    It looks like they will strip him of his 7 titles.


    I am no fan of Armstong and I think he is grossly overrated, especialy in the U.S. I laugh that some Americans think he is the greatest cylicst of all time, even if he were as clean as Apple Pie he wouldnt even be top 5 all time considering there were many past legends like Indurain, Merckx, Hinault, Anquetil, and others who dominated the entire racing year and scene, not just one event the Tour de France. Relative to them he is a one trick pony, who relied on the strongest overall team ever produced in the Tour de France to help carry him to his Tour de France titles, and who basically did nothing the rest of the cycling year. At best I could agree he is the best cyclist of his own era. That said I do not agree that he is probably going to be his stripped of his Tour de France titles because I think everyone in the Tour de France these days is doped up to their eyeballs. Do I believe Lance dopes, hell yeah, but so do all his contemporaries, it is probably a requirement to join any major cycling team today. That said some others have been unlucky and caught and stripped, he hasnt been caught so I dont think it is fair, but it is what it is.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2012
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  3. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    This is very very cunning by Armstrong. He can now say he never fought the charges and maintain more moral high ground amongst his supporters than if he got convicted of any of the charges at all.

    Now... let's see if his corporate supporters, Nike etc, will continue their associations with him.
     
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  4. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    Yep, great news! Fraudstrong/Pharmstrong finally gets what's coming to him. His mountain of lies began to fall down over the past few years, and now it's all finally crumbling down.

    Don't listen to the BS about what Livestrong has done for cancer either. Livestrong has contributed almost nothing to cancer research, it is also it's own commercial entity. It's just another way Nike tries to make people feel good about giving them money.

    And definitely don't listen to the garbage about being tested however many times. Do the research and get the facts before buying into that junk.

    Cycling news compiled a huge list for people who are lazy to look into some of this stuff themselves.
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/index-of-lance-armstrong-doping-allegations-over-the-years
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
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  5. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Armstrong is right - this is a witchhunt and everyone knows who won those 7 tours.
     
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  6. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    I hope you dont seriously believe all his competitors arent as juiced up as he is however. It should be La Tour de Juice. In recent years we have seen almost every noteable cyclist get caught, Contador, Ulrich, Armstrong, Hamilton, Landis, Vinokourov, numerous Tour de France titles and Olympic medals stripped, various teams have been caught overstocked with human growth hormone. Even one of the Schleck brothers, who were potrayed as the wholesome all that is good about the sport, was recently caught. Probably EVERY rider in the Tour de France is doped today, and anyone who believes otherwise is a naive idiot.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2012
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  7. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    So basically let's bring down a great American champion in some misguided witchhunt. I have no dog in this, I just want justice.
     
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  8. tenniscasey

    tenniscasey Semi-Pro

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    I'm not an Armstrong fan, but the above is an out and out lie.

    http://www.livestrong.org/What-We-Do/Our-Approach/Where-the-Money-Goes

    http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=6570
     
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  9. Underhand

    Underhand Legend

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    M. Jones, Landis, Armstrong – couple of years and Phelps gets his cell as well.
     
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  10. ninman

    ninman Hall of Fame

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    What is the evidence that the USDSA, or whatever, has against him?
     
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  11. rajah84

    rajah84 Semi-Pro

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    He's no dummy. That's what I would do if I was a cheat trying to protect what's left of my image.

    What would be great is if the USADA went through with the process and was somehow able to prove he doped, with or without him.

    It will be very interesting if evil Nike stands by him. Somethings tells me they will. They never left Tiger after all.
     
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  12. rajah84

    rajah84 Semi-Pro

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    You said if yourself. Almost every notable cyclist got caught. But not Lance.

    Armstrong's supporters don't mind so much when others are caught. And they call it a witch hunt.
     
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  13. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Apparently the new detection technique for drugs that are difficult to pick up are old style police methods of collecting witness statements from the immediate circle and convicting on that basis.

    This takes some time but if its eyewitness testimony then its solid.
     
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  14. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    In August 2005, L'Equipe announced they tested the B sample from one of his 1999 tests, which had been frozen, and it came out positive for EPO (those tests were not available in 1999). The A sample had not been frozen. The ICU did not think it was enough to impose any sanctions, but that finding got the ball rolling.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/sports/othersports/24cycling.html

    I am still surprised he has decided to stop defending himself, which amounts to a de facto admission of guilt. However, it's not clear yet he will be stripped of his titles. The USADA has no authority to do so. Only the ICU can do it, but certainly now it will be very hard for them not to do it.
     
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  15. Alchemy-Z

    Alchemy-Z Hall of Fame

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    Kinda wonder how long it is until we have approved performance drugs for athletes so we can see the max ability of the human body.

    and just do all the record books like Tennis...Open Era

    so in all of sport say starting 2015 or something have the performance enhanced era and when you look up records they will just have a PE beside the time/weight/win #

    then they can stop spending all this money on keeping one guy in court for 13 years for winning some bike races.

    and maybe focus on some real crimes.
     
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  16. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    I said it at the time he was doing everything and Barry Bonds was at a different level in Baseball than everybody else.

    Barry did not go out of his way to hide to hide the fact that he didnt like the media and was genrally an A-Hole.

    Lance did everything right from a PR standpoint and used cancer to his advantage and actually won awards over Barry for athele of the year.

    Both had in depth books written of numerous accustations.
    One was not realeased in the USA.
    One was relaesed in the USA and instantly became 100% factual in poeples minds.

    One guy was white.
    One guy was black.

    Of course the white guy gets the benefit of the doubt all these years.
     
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  17. Sander001

    Sander001 Hall of Fame

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    Weird because they don't have the authority to do so.
    Cyclists who got caught doping and are trying to ease their punishment in exchange for testimony.
     
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  18. FloridaAG

    FloridaAG Professional

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    Always believed he was a doper, a liar and an a**hole.

    That said, belief and proof are 2 different things
     
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  19. Dedans Penthouse

    Dedans Penthouse Hall of Fame

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    Very good post, summed up the contrasting images between the two: Bonds a bonafide creep, Armstrong accessible, etc., ..... but unfortunately you then had to invoke the Rev. Al Sharpton school of thought: playing the race card and "rubber stamping" it as ordained knowledge with a very subjective, cynical ASSUMPTION. Bonds is dispised by many because of who he is: a very unlikeable creep. Honky Roger Clemens is also dispised because (while maybe not a creep on the level of Bonds) he too is judged by what people see him as: an arrogant liar.



    ^^^Nice, really nice. This from someone who uses a "pat himself on the back and tell the world about it" username: fundrazer.
    Stay classy my friend. And fwiw, I'd never wish stage 4 testicular cancer on you or anyone.



    on-topic, I may be wrong but imho, it's mostly ill-willed, agenda driven b.s. from all sides - that sport is as drug-infested and corrupt as they come. For every juiced up Armstrong, there's 10 others who "passed the test" .... technically.

    The races crash pileups are cool though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
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  20. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

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    Everyone? HAHA How can you guys still think this guy didnt cheat?
     
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  21. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    I don’t really agree with all this though. I am no fan of Armstrong, but if something is not being tested at a certain time, then it was, in a sense, legal, or at least there has to be a short limit to how far into the future you can go fishing for witches into the past, otherwise this becomes a circus, with untold numbers of frozen samples for olympic and other athletes being kept who knows where and under who knows how much security, all subject to future re-examinations with new techniques, or the athletes themselves subject to new witnesses agreeing to do revelatory accusations. These are Inquisition-like techniques. When it comes to "doping", Armstrong is probably no different than the vast majority of elite cyclists. Why are they not looking into the frozen samples of everyone 12 or 15 years back?
     
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  22. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    But, Barry was the only guy who getting ostracized while he was actually still playing. People knew Roger was as big a dick as anyone, and they suspected he was using the roids as much as anyone. Ask any Red Sox fan about clemns last few years there and his tranformation in Toronto. but he was still touyed as being the best even at age whatever when he was with Houston. They never went after Clemons the same way the went after Bonds. The singled out Bonds, mainly becuase he was the best and breaking tons of records.

    I failed in the comment as I can see it does appear that makes it seem like its the main issue, when in fact it is not.
     
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  23. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    What does my username have to do with anything? I've been using it for years for pc gaming among other things. Don't understand why you're even talking about it. Keep the personal insults to yourself please.

    Look, it is very well possible that Lance brought his cancer upon himself with the massive doping regime that he was a part of during his cycling career. I think the whole Livestrong brand is a joke, and I was very displeased to see Tennis Warehouse begin carrying the brand. The way I see it, it's a brand built on a foundation of lies and deceit.

    I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, but the reality is that Livestrong is more of a commercial enterprise than a charity foundation. But some people can say this better than I can, basically, Livestrong and even the pink breast cancer ribbons are commercializing the cancer awareness movement and exploiting human generosity.


    "much of your donated money to LiveStrong is spent on legal fees, not cancer research."

    Do a little bit of reading and you'll learn something. Livestrong is getting into legal fights with much much smaller cancer awareness groups, but for what reason? Why not all get along and support cancer awareness?

    "In 2010 alone Livestrong reported spending $468,355 on ‘legal fees’ related to domestic and international trademark infringements."

    This is another amusing and interesting bit "In the combined audit report of the livestrong family of charities the 2009 travel expenses total almost $2 million ($1,922,995). For comparison, the National Cancer Coalition, with 5 times as much money raised only claimed $108,559 in travel expenses"
     
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  24. WARPWOODIE

    WARPWOODIE Rookie

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    Cycling has become a dirty sport, and is one of many reasons I don't follow it any more. USADA is sending a strong message and the ICU should support them. I wish the Major Leagues would do the same thing. Just recently two players, one from the A's and Giants got suspended 50 plus games for doping. And I thought it was over when Clemens and Bond got caught. There will always be those who'll push the envelope.
     
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  25. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    It has actually become much less dirty than it previously was. The 90's-early 00's era was probably the most dirty era of cycling ever. Back then they practically flew up the mountains every day. I'm not going to say it's super 100% clean of doping, but I do think that things are much better than they were.
     
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  26. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    for the a**hole thing, i think the positive test was already confirmed a long time ago... :)
     
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  27. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Why? The rules of the sport don't specify specific drugs and limit the scope of their application to them alone, they have an umbrella coverall which includes stuff they don't know about yet. For quite obvious reasons too - because the tests for drugs always lag behind new drug developments (and which is why they keep tests quite secret for a while, so those trying to defeat them will take longer to work out how to beat those tests).

    Participation in most sport, at least at a competitive level, requires acceptance by the athletes that they agree to the testing regime amongst other rules. If you don't accept, you can't compete - it's that simple. There is no "you can't do that" scenario with regards to testing for those who may have infringed - which is what Armstrong was effectively attempting to do when he tried to have the case thrown out recently but was rejected.
     
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  28. jmverdugo

    jmverdugo Hall of Fame

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    I think it is very important the message USADA is sending: "we may not be able to catch you when you do it, but WE WILL catch you", it will make everybody think twice before trying a "new" and indectectable way to dope, you may get away NOW but you will get caught.
     
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  29. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    But they didn't actually catch him. There are still no samples from his Tour championships that have tested positive for doping.

    They have stripped him of his titles based on statements from his competitors and pretty much nothing else. They say they have recent samples - not from the winning days - that "are consistent with" doping but don't actually prove any doping!

    Maybe he doped. Maybe he didn't. Either way, they're stripping him of titles without ever producing a single failed blood sample.
     
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  30. tennismonkey

    tennismonkey Semi-Pro

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    dopers are always 1 step ahead (at least) of the drug testers. as drug testing and technology gets better, a lot of past "clean" athletes get caught. the olympics recently busted athletes 8 years later.

    i remember when armstrong retired after winning 7 TDFs and thinking - why the heck would you stop?
     
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  31. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Yep, and all anyone can say is that it is pretty obvious that he doped. I don't know how you go from that to stripping someone of their titles.

    As soon as they prove it, then go ahead and take the titles. If your personal sports hero has never tested positive for ped's, but then someone who knows him claimed that he used, are you all going to jump on the doping bandwagon?

    Perhaps someone should pay members of high profile sports stars' teams to claim that said stars are doping in order to show why it doesn't necessarily mean anything. They can out their scheme after the players are "proven" to be dopers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
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  32. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    1 step?

    How many steps ahead do you have to be in your doping technology for them still not to be able to detect anything in a blood sample taken 13 years ago?
     
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  33. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Incorrect. Old samples of his were tested a few years ago which unequivocally showed banned substances. However, Armstrong's PR machine was in full swing at that stage and, as he's always been so adept at, managed to obfuscate the result by accusing the testing facility of all manner of incompetence and painting the French a biased... his defence in that respect hasn't changed and, to his supporters at least, is a "perfect" defence.
     
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  34. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    Can you provide a link?
     
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  35. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    That doesn't seem to be quite correct, according to this and similar articles at the time:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/sports/othersports/24cycling.html

    However, I still think this retroactive stuff going back years should not be allowed. Why not go back all the way to Merckx (who actuall was caught at least three times) and try to get some people to testify against him?

    Interesting read: Confessions of a drug pedlar
    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,481510,00.html
     
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  36. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    Can the USADA strip Lance of his 2000 OG medal ? Or is the IOC supposed to do that ?

    From what I know, Gatlin was not stripped of his 2004 Gold, just given a ban, and he's back. Same goes for about 5 or 6 others I know of.
     
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  37. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

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    Not only his competitiors, almost every single team mate he had has come out saying Lance was a cheater as well.
     
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  38. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The simple explanation for Armstrong's actions is that he doesn't want the spectacle of former team mate after former team mate standing in front of a tribunal telling the world what was happening and Armstrong's involvement in it.

    Armstrong is basically cutting his losses.
     
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  39. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    If everyone u beat is dirty and all of your team is is dirty u r dirty!!
     
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  40. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    If it's so obvious he's a cheater, why don't they grab one of his samples from one of his victories and have an independent lab somewhere test it and prove it?

    With all the effort they've put into this, it seems strange that they can't produce one doped sample.
     
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  41. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    update

    Dude they have new evidence this past June on samples that prove his blood was doped. Plus they have 10 ex teammates willing to fry his *** on the stand. Lance is smart enuff to not to take the stand or waste his money on an appeal. The judge just tossed his 134 page bs lawsuit.
     
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  42. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Ten riders plus others:


    "I think you've got to look at the facts and the evidence that has only been collected in the last couple of years. There are 10 riders and several other witnesses with evidence [against him]. There can be no other interpretation."
     
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  43. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    They do? The best I can find is samples from 2009 and 2010 that say the blood is "consistent with" doping. They don't prove anything even about 2009 and 2010, let alone about the years he actually won.
     
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  44. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    I don't know if he doped, or not. I can understand why he would say F it though. If he is innocent, this is just a giant witch hunt so why waste the time, energy and money to combat it for years and years and years. He was tested umpteen times 'til Sunday at the time, and his results were clean.

    He could always employ the OJ defense, that the samples have been tampered with especially after such a long time. He concluded it isn't worth the grief. He is retired from the sport so the lifetime ban is sort of a joke.

    From what I have read, it is not exactly a given the international committee will back the allegations of the American one. We'll see.
     
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  45. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    If you have eyewitness testimony from ten riders plus others that he was doping, do you not think that such evidence on oath is not enough evidence?

    There is some drug evidence, but if there's a murder then ballistics gets you so far and witnesses the rest of the distance barring confession.
     
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  46. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    Those ten people could have any number of reasons for saying he doped. A lot of people simply don't like him.

    If he doped so much and for so long, it should be trivial to pull out and old sample, test it, and say "there you go!" That has not happened. Why?
     
    #46
  47. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, but he could have let them stand up before USADA and destroyed their evidence if he could, but he chose not to so they're going to punish him based on the unchallenged evidence before them.
     
    #47
  48. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    It's not certain yet that the International Cycling Union will go along with it and take away his titles. He won 46 cycling events since 1998 (and a bronze medal). If they do, however, the funny thing is that many of those victories will go to people who in turn were implicated in doping scandals. Then at some point these people should be investigated and replaced by others, I suppose, then repeat the process every few years until you get all the titles in the hands of unknown cyclists. Here is a list of those who would take his place.

    http://deportes.elpais.com/deportes/2012/08/24/actualidad/1345808009_341829.html
    [...]
    Armstrong dejaría tres de sus siete Tours a Jan Ullrich (el primero y único de la historia con cuatro, entonces), un ciclista que después reconoció haberse dopado y su implicación en la Operación Puerto; un Tour iría a Zülle, del caso Festina, otro a Beloki y a Basso, ambos en la Operación Puerto; el séptimo a Klöden, también investigado. Y serían considerados podio de Tour: Dufaux, Moreau, Kivilev, Botero, Hamilton y Mancebo, cada uno con su historial a cuestas. Su Vuelta a Suiza iría a Simoni; las dos Dauphinés serían para Landis y Mayo, y su Midi Libre para Igor González de Galdeano. Sus 20 victorias de etapa en el Tour y demás victorias en otras carreras serían para Maignan, Brochard, Vaughters, Zülle, Zubeldia, Ullrich, Olano (bronce Sidney), Jalabert, Igor, Beloki, Heras, Rumsas, Millar, Mayo, Iván Domínguez, Voigt, Basso y Klöden.
     
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  49. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    Has any of that been made public? If not, why not? What is the exact nature of it? If not public, if may consist of Floyd Landis told me he saw x. Hardly credible.

    It would be like me saying I have 10 people that will testify that Bartelby is a communist agitator but not coming forth with the actual names or the actual testimony. Not exactly fair to Bartelby.

    Didn't a federal grand jury clear LA of this? Didn't the judge in that matter criticize the methods of the US body?

    I don't know if he is guilty or not, but I'm not willing to hang the guy based on mere innuendo if that is all that they have against him.
     
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  50. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    It won't be made public now simply because Armstrong chose not to defend himself against the charges because the public humiliation he would suffer would destroy him completely.

    Instead he'll skulk off claiming victimisation.
     
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