Did Alcaraz defeat peak Djokovic or was this an incredibly weak era?
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
Fed played more old school than modern here. He even had the old school equipmentYou forgot the most massive example - Federer VS Sampras at Wimbledon, the only real example of old school vs modern player on an old school court(and Fed had to work for it):
Year Event Surface RND Winner Result 2001 Wimbledon
EnglandOutdoor Grass R16 Roger Federer 767 57 64 672 75 Roger Federer VS Pete Sampras | Head 2 Head | H2H | ATP Tour | Tennis
Head to head records for players in men's professional tennis. View rivalry results and stats for matches on the ATP Tour.www.atptour.com
The only value the term 'weak era' has is on message boards and on a bar stool. Outside of this, it is not only meaningless, but does not even exist.
WYK
Hall of Fame
Exactly. Which is why I said modern player. He was able to beat Sampras at his own game, and then went on to beat everyone else for decades as the game changed.
Really a rather more impressive feat than simply being the best returner this side of Agassi...
weakera
Talk Tennis Guru
They really believed it too... it's kind of scary
Djokovic's serve and backhand were not at their present day best on Sunday. No doubt Alcaraz had something to do with that, but so did the wind and slippery court conditions. NO player at 36 or older is at their very best consistently.
weakera
Talk Tennis Guru
Didn't Federer win Wimbledon with no sets dropped at 36?
Alcaraz takeover
Rookie
He beat
Jarry (probably the most underrated player in the world with a monstrous serve),
Berrettini (36-7 record on grass and only ever lost to the big 4)
Medvedev (3rd highest ranked in the world)
Rune (2nd best player of his generation apparently, so far)
Djokovic (considered by many as the GOAT and unbeaten on centre court since 2013)
The word "weak" should never be used in any way about Alcaraz's 2023 Wimbledon run.
Jarry (probably the most underrated player in the world with a monstrous serve),
Berrettini (36-7 record on grass and only ever lost to the big 4)
Medvedev (3rd highest ranked in the world)
Rune (2nd best player of his generation apparently, so far)
Djokovic (considered by many as the GOAT and unbeaten on centre court since 2013)
The word "weak" should never be used in any way about Alcaraz's 2023 Wimbledon run.
Aestheticsaboveallelse
Legend
Federer > Alcaraz > Nadal = Djokovic
initialize
Hall of Fame
Yes, players between 2003 and 2009 were definitely harder to beat.
Remember in that time there were both young Nadal and Nole, who were both obviously much better than the current versions of themselves. And they would quite commonly LOSE to random players in the draw before meeting Federer in the finals. "Random" players like Roddick, Safin, Davydenko, Soderling, Nalbandian, etc. It's therefore quite clear those players are stronger than players than today. Even the infamous "eye test" proves this.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Djoker's only grass challenges have been a 38 year old Fed and a 20 year old grass rookie in Alcaraz, 2 players at the opposite sides of the age spectrum and he should've lost both matches.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
I am not insane to claim Nadal is better after 27 than he was before lol
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Eren
Professional
You forgot the most massive example - Federer VS Sampras at Wimbledon, the only real example of old school vs modern player on an old school court(and Fed had to work for it):
Year Event Surface RND Winner Result 2001 Wimbledon
EnglandOutdoor Grass R16 Roger Federer 767 57 64 672 75 Roger Federer VS Pete Sampras | Head 2 Head | H2H | ATP Tour | Tennis
Head to head records for players in men's professional tennis. View rivalry results and stats for matches on the ATP Tour.
The only value the term 'weak era' has is on message boards and on a bar stool. Outside of this, it is not only meaningless, but does not even exist.
Yeah, but Fedr wasn't like Nadal. Youngdal was insane. Young Djokovic was pretty slick too.
Young Fed was below par and still beat Sampras (who was way closer to his prime than Fed).
If Fed was able to face Sampras in 2003 at Wimbeldon, he straight sets the sh-t out of him or wins in 4 sets. I don't see a 5-setter for prime Fedr on grass vs Post-Prime Sampras.
Young ATGs almost always win against post-prime ATGs. It's a fact.
RS
Bionic Poster
You spoke less on hypotheticals and competition though no?
WYK
Hall of Fame
Sampras retired in 2001.
Fed beat a pretty impresive Sampras. Very few of the kids nowadays short of maybe seeing the recent performance by Eubanks have any idea how awesome Sampras was.
Imagine someone winning games the way Eubanks played for over a decade, on a surface that was far faster with faster balls and an 85 sq in racquet and gut.
By comparison, Nadal is mostly a retriever with a big net..
mike danny
Bionic Poster
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Carlos's success does prove that the Next Gen were always bad and that the excuses around them never flew.
People said Djokodal were the greatest ever and were too good, so no shame in not being able to beat them but then comes young Carlitos and tears them apart despite not being in his prime yet so that's already one narrative busted.
Carlitos actually achieving more than the entire Next Gen combined at only 20 is just icing on the cake.
People said Djokodal were the greatest ever and were too good, so no shame in not being able to beat them but then comes young Carlitos and tears them apart despite not being in his prime yet so that's already one narrative busted.
Carlitos actually achieving more than the entire Next Gen combined at only 20 is just icing on the cake.
TheNachoMan
Legend
OP bragging now after talking down on Alcaraz the entire tournament..lol
I don’t know how you can watch literally any tennis since 2020 and come to this conclusion, are you from a parallel universe?
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Thanks for making me laugh
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
You spoke less on hypotheticals and competition though no?
I barely indulge in Hypothetical even now. As far competition is concerned yeah I did but grass competition is even worse since 2016 or so after Murray was gone. Clay not so much till 2020. ( Had stan , Theim , Djokovic, Nadal) while grass has no equivalent of stan and Theim and no Nadal , atleast not regularly) so it was all Djokovic feasting on.
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nextgens can barely maintain a rally on key points without dumping a FH into the net… reminds me of 2015 Federer too.Thanks for making me laugh
Looking back, it's amazing to see how incredible that Big 4 era really was - that was some high quality tennis, with all those guys in/near their prime at the same time. Really too bad that Delpo had those injury issues - he would have made a dent in the numbers for sure. But on this topic, anyone who says Nadal post 2014 or Djokovic post 2016 or even 2017/18 Fed were better than their primes is smoking some strong stuff. Djokovic is nowhere near his physical prime right now. That doesn't mean he isn't formidable and can't win again. But, he's not prime and hasn't been for quite some time, nor will he be again. I think, however, if he's facing Alcaraz in the finals, it's going to be an uphill battle. He'll need some help to win against him again, now that Alcaraz see he has what it takes to go the distance.
Sputnik Bulgorov
Professional
The data says otherwise. The 16 years between Djokovic and Alcaraz is the biggest talent void in tennis history.
Players born between Djokovic and Alcaraz (1987- 2003, 16 years) who have won slams:
Cilic - 1
Delpo - 1
Thiem - 1
Medvedev - 1
Players born between Sampras and Nadal (1971-1986, 15 years) who have won slams, excluding Federer:
Roddick - 1
Moya - 1
Ivanisevic - 1
Johansson - 1
Ferrero - 1
Chang - 1
Gaudio - 1
Costa - 1
Krajicek - 1
Hewitt - 2
Safin - 2
Kafelnikov - 2
Rafter - 2
Kuerten - 3
Wawrinka - 3
mike danny
Bionic Poster
All the data you need is to know that Medvedev is the best player born between 1989 and 2002 inclusive.
NYTennisfan
Professional
First post, long time lurker. Glad to be here. Huge Alcaraz fan, I knew he had the goods the moment I saw him for the first time in Winston Salem back in 2021.
Just wanted to get that out of the way....
If you're talking 2003-2018, you have to include Murray, Wawrinka and Del Potro who were all Grand Slam champs beating The Big 3 in their prime. Granted, a lot of the New Gen guys are not even in their prime yet so it's hard to really know what they are yet but I'll say that the 2010-2018 period in particular had tougher competition for The Big 3 and of course, The Big 3 had to contend with each other. It's probably more fair to compare Federer's competition in 2003-2008 to what Djokovic is facing now when Djokovic was still fighting his way to the top and Nadal was bursting onto the scene so you had the likes of Roddick, Hewitt, Nalbandian, Ferrer, Safin etc.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Not that entire period. Mid 2016-2018 was pretty weak.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
2003-2008 was miles better than the last 7 years and it's not particularly close.
RS
Bionic Poster
You do talk more about peak/old/young though and you used to occasionally quote the 2015 Fed peak statement on a discussion we had last year
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
You do talk more about peak/old/young though and you used to occasionally quote the 2015 Fed peak statement on a discussion we had last year
Yeah all players have peak / young , old? So? As far as 2015 is concerned? He was playing at a high level but nowhere i maintained that he was a peak Fed lmao , i do some trolling with Fed's hilarious quote lol.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
Lol can't believe you go to such length to have every messages. I just stated what experts and Nick stated and Fed himself said that. Don't know where's the contradiction? Did i say Fed 2014 will beat 2006 Fed?lmao .
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Subway Tennis
Legend
Have you rewatched any of the final yet?You do talk more about peak/old/young though and you used to occasionally quote the 2015 Fed peak statement on a discussion we had last year
I rewatched the second set of the final and and the final two games of the match. Also rewatched the third set of Sinner vs Djokovic (easily Sinner’s best tennis of the tournament imo).
The only match I’ve rewatched in full is Rune vs Alcaraz. That was an almighty takedown. Alcaraz spooked the rest of the draw and sent a message with his level in that match.
Definitely not the case as Rafa only became a real threat in other surfaces starting from Wimbledon 2008. Yes he gave Roger 5 set match in 2007 but that was more down to Fed playing well below his best as Rafa was already getting in his head.
The rest of the field was pretty weak. You just have to go back and look at ATP top 10 for those years to see that.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
Dude Rafa 2007 and even Rafa 2006 are far better than anyone Djokovic has faced in last 3 Wimbledon triumph.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
First paragraph is BS.
And yes, I did look at the top 10 for those years. Nothing wrong with them except 2006.
BGod
G.O.A.T.
It's a mixture of a lot of things.
Novak's consistency is more easily explained as a GOAT level player from his peak level in end of 14-mid 16, then coming back in 2018 after elbow surgery to have a fantastical base for his coinsistency.
Basically his low level is very high and he can still have flashes of top form. Unlike Federer he does have higher percentage base level tennis. But in addition to this the competition level is also lower if we're attempting to compare to Nadal or Federer. The competition such as Tsitsipas, Medvedev, Alcaraz etc have lower percentage as a base.
I also think the wind is being completely ignored for Novak's lower consistency in the match we recently saw. Yeah you'd think wind would affect both players equally but it doesn't because Alcaraz has the stronger power shot to cut through and longer rallies therefore work against Novak.
Novak's consistency is more easily explained as a GOAT level player from his peak level in end of 14-mid 16, then coming back in 2018 after elbow surgery to have a fantastical base for his coinsistency.
Basically his low level is very high and he can still have flashes of top form. Unlike Federer he does have higher percentage base level tennis. But in addition to this the competition level is also lower if we're attempting to compare to Nadal or Federer. The competition such as Tsitsipas, Medvedev, Alcaraz etc have lower percentage as a base.
I also think the wind is being completely ignored for Novak's lower consistency in the match we recently saw. Yeah you'd think wind would affect both players equally but it doesn't because Alcaraz has the stronger power shot to cut through and longer rallies therefore work against Novak.
I think Carlitos did beat a peak Djokovic. Feels strange to say a 36 yo guy is at his peak but Novak had won the AO and FO in dominant fashion. His serve and FH looked better than ever. Novak looked invincible at Wimb until the final.Other than against Nadal, Djokovic *had* been approx. 110-3 at slams since Wimbledon 2018, if I'm not mistaken:
AO: 28-0
RG: 29-1 (Thiem)
W: 34-0
USO: 19-2 (Wawrinka, Medvedev)
So, clearly Djokovic has been in virtually unbeatable form, which means Alcaraz defeated Djokovic in virtually unbeatable form, which means peak Alcaraz > peak Djokovic.
Or, Djokovic's unbelievable record at grand slams in recent years was the product of a very, very weak era in terms of competition.
What do you think
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
You forget that Nadal put him on the ropes in 2018 and if it weren't for the choke of the Spanish player in the third set tie-break and that the entire match was played indoors, the result would have been different.
NYTennisfan
Professional
I don't disagree but I was just separating the 2003-2008 and 2010-2018 time periods since 2003-2018 was such a broad stroke. 2010-2018 was far tougher than either time period which was when Federer was past his prime.
The last 7 years (with Murray and Wawrinka done at the championship level, Del Potro sadly injured and Federer getting close to being done) was basically 30+ year old Djokovic and Nadal then a bunch of choke artists.
NYTennisfan
Professional
Yeah, I don't know where this "Oldovic" stuff comes from. He might not move quite as well as he did 5-6 years ago but his overall game is probably the best it ever has been with his serve being an actual strength. He's still close to prime Djokovic.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
D
Deleted member 779124
Guest
Today is definitely not a peak Djokovic for me. Although I could see why somebody would say 2nd half 2018 to now was his late prime.
Regardless he played the level of neither above IMHO
Regardless he played the level of neither above IMHO
Aestheticsaboveallelse
Legend
The wind dudeee the wind its bad for vic
MissileBackHand99
Semi-Pro
Where are they?? I have only seen MAYBE a handful since 2011 around here...
Handful yes, but I'm trying not to discourage the decency exhibited by the few.
I generally scroll past if I see the likes of Pavvy on Twitter, however, much like with many of them here. But then again stans in general can be toxic.
MissileBackHand99
Semi-Pro
IF they are here on TTW, they sadly never post or comment (not that I blame them in the slightest, especially in this forum). Having been around this board for years, NoVaxx fandom is the most toxic. First it was years upon years of threads about Nadal "doping"; now it's years of calling anything before 2011 "weak era"; oh it's also the childish antics of snarky comments the moment Fed announced his retirement; oh and spewing his Anti-Vaxx garbage as if it has any basis in provable, scientific fact. Now in this forum, every other post for the first 2-3 pages is from a Djokofanboy
ghostofMecir
Legend
Wind, slippery conditions… lots of excuses there for the BOAT/GOAT, no?
interesting that you say that no players at their best at 36 now but before, age was an excuse .
