Difference in construction between RF97, 97, 97L and 97LS

[JLD]

Recently I read a very interesting article from the New York Times (see: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/25/sports/tennis/stars-rackets-not-just-like-ours.html) which, among other things, compared the RF97, 97 and 97LS with respect to their construction materials. A Wilson rep I believe indicated that the 97 was like a "little brother" to the RF97, with weight removed yet maintaining the same construction, while the 97LS was like a "cousin" to those two racquets because kevlar was removed in order to make it even lighter than those two.

Wilson recently introduced the 97L. It has the exact same specs as the 97LS, except for slights differences in swingweight and stiffness, and the different string pattern. My questions are (1) does the 97L include kevlar or, as the 97LS, does it NOT include kevlar; (2) do both the 97L and the 97LS contain "braided" graphite, or just graphite (see TW description, where the 97 and 97L says "braided graphite" whereas the 97LS says only "graphite"; (3) are the 97L and the 97LS essentially the same exact racquet in construction materials, or is the 97L more similar in construction materials to the 97; and (4) does "braided graphite" mean essentially that graphite is braided with basalt fibers?

Besides knowledgeable forum members, maybe @PeterFig can contribute to this one?

Thanks in advance!

-JLD

 

[Zoolander]

Im no racquet construction expert guy, but lets see how I go.

1) no kevlar, it has countervail (CV) instead.
2) if 97LS says "graphite" only, I highly doubt its braided.
3) seems the LS is just graphite, the L is graphite/CV, whereas the 97 is still braided graphite&kevlar/basalt (apparently). Not sure but I dont believe the basalt is actually braided in, just the graphite and kevlar.

Interesting point that Wilson claim to remove kevlar in order to reduce weight. Its only there for vibration dampening and not structural I believe so that may be true, esp since lighter racquets tend to be "in" these days and heavy player racquet are "out".

 

[JLD]

Yes, I’m almost sure that it’s how you say. I actually think that it DOES have braided graphite. If you look for the racquet description in other websites, it states so. However, I don’t believe that they are precise in their description. I suspect that they just copy/paste a description from somewhere and only care about moving units. Which confuses things.

The fact that TW posts in the 97L “braided graphite”, and the 97LS JUST “graphite”, while in its TW Europe page it posts JUST “Graphite” for the 97L and “Carbon Graphite” for the 97LS, just confuses things further. The only clue to the truth is the description in both websites, which mentions braided graphite for the 97L and omits it for the 97LS. But it’s hard for me to believe that two racquets with mostly the exact same specs as to weight, swingweight, balance, width, etc. are materially different in their construction (save for the Countervail fibers included in the 97L).

I know this may sound trivial to most people, but I’m a Pro Staff racquet user since the original PS 6.0 back in the late 80s, and I’ve been faithful to the series. As I get older, I’ve found myself reluctantly purchasing lighter models of the PS, and this is the first time that I’m commiting to purchase a slightly sub 11oz racquet. The feel of the racquet with respect to the PS line is of crucial importance, and I would like to know exactly which materials were used in constructing both the 97L and 97LS when making a purchasing decision. Any further replies are appreciated!

-JLD

 

[RanchDressing]

Yes, I’m almost sure that it’s how you say. I actually think that it DOES have braided graphite. If you look for the racquet description in other websites, it states so. However, I don’t believe that they are precise in their description. I suspect that they just copy/paste a description from somewhere and only care about moving units. Which confuses things.

The fact that TW posts in the 97L “braided graphite”, and the 97LS JUST “graphite”, while in its TW Europe page it posts JUST “Graphite” for the 97L and “Carbon Graphite” for the 97LS, just confuses things further. The only clue to the truth is the description in both websites, which mentions braided graphite for the 97L and omits it for the 97LS. But it’s hard for me to believe that two racquets with mostly the exact same specs as to weight, swingweight, balance, width, etc. are materially different in their construction (save for the Countervail fibers included in the 97L).

I know this may sound trivial to most people, but I’m a Pro Staff racquet user since the original PS 6.0 back in the late 80s, and I’ve been faithful to the series. As I get older, I’ve found myself reluctantly purchasing lighter models of the PS, and this is the first time that I’m commiting to purchase a slightly sub 11oz racquet. The feel of the racquet with respect to the PS line is of crucial importance, and I would like to know exactly which materials were used in constructing both the 97L and 97LS when making a purchasing decision. Any further replies are appreciated!

-JLD

I think weight will have a very important impact on feel. Especially inertia(s). I had a video going into the topic of recoil weight very specifically and it would probably be helpful, but I accidentally deleted it when I was on my phone.

The good thing about a light racquet is, it's very easy to make a light racquet heavier. So if you don't like the feel, down the road with some clever weight addition, you should be able to fix/improve it dramatically.

 

[gplracer]

My son has the PS97. He also has the RF97. I wonder if the extra weight of the RF97 would help his golfers elbow that he is struggling with. My son is 15 years old and 6’3”.

 

[JLD]

Your son should easily handle the PS97 with its 11.7oz weight. The RF97 is a beast though, and should in my opinion be used by those who are in shape and employ full and technically correct swings, without worry that they will swing late during a high-speed rally or service return. If your son is in shape and has a high swing speed, plus correct swing mechanics, then he should have no problem with the RF97. However, there's seems to be a growing trend of juniors using lighter racquets than the RF97, and you barely see it in the juniors as far as I know.

I used to use the original PS 6.0 that Sampras used (not the thicker St. Vincent model) which weighed the same as the RF97 (12.6 oz strung), when I was your son's age. Back then, I didn't even consider that racquet to be heavy, and the era of lighter/head heavy racquets was just beginning. I tried the RF97 last Saturday and, although it feels great with its nice plow-through, it's way too wieldy for me (currently 43 years old and not in the best shape). So it's time for me to wield something much lighter, and enter the world of 11oz or less heavy racquets. If I get in shape and improve, I might consider going back to the PS97 (NEVER the RF97), but even if it's taken me years to reluctantly recognize it, I have to play with a racquet which suits my particular needs and addresses my particular limitations. Thus, goodbye PS97, hello PS97LS or PS97L.

Interestingly, the RF97 that I tried belongs to a 50+ gentleman who is in very good shape but does not employ what you would consider a more modern, technically correct advanced swing. He kind of half-swings the ball, not much racquet head speed, and hits flat, but has great directional control. Personally, I don't think he's enjoying the full potential of the plow through abilities of that racquet, as his ball speed is rather slow to medium paced, but he seems to be having good results playing singles at a 3.0 level. As they say, "whatever works!".

-JLD

My son has the PS97. He also has the RF97. I wonder if the extra weight of the RF97 would help his golfers elbow that he is struggling with. My son is 15 years old and 6’3”.

 

[lidoazndiabloboi]

My son has the PS97. He also has the RF97. I wonder if the extra weight of the RF97 would help his golfers elbow that he is struggling with. My son is 15 years old and 6’3”.

Dam! What are you feeding these kids?!

The RF97 will give him a little more stability and plow through on his shots, and he wouldnt have to swing as hard. So it should help with his elbow problems. But he'll have to get used to the weight at first. I'm only 5'7" and I use the RF97, and it works wonders for me.

 

[Zoolander]

Yes, I’m almost sure that it’s how you say. I actually think that it DOES have braided graphite. If you look for the racquet description in other websites, it states so.

Possibly, you could always post a question to them and ask in the TW questions forum?

My son has the PS97. He also has the RF97. I wonder if the extra weight of the RF97 would help his golfers elbow that he is struggling with. My son is 15 years old and 6’3”.

I had golfers elbow couple of years ago and lighter was better for me, heavy seemed to strain the tendons more, esp on serves and forehands which was where I felt it most.

 

[gplracer]

Your son should easily handle the PS97 with its 11.7oz weight. The RF97 is a beast though, and should in my opinion be used by those who are in shape and employ full and technically correct swings, without worry that they will swing late during a high-speed rally or service return. If your son is in shape and has a high swing speed, plus correct swing mechanics, then he should have no problem with the RF97. However, there's seems to be a growing trend of juniors using lighter racquets than the RF97, and you barely see it in the juniors as far as I know.

I used to use the original PS 6.0 that Sampras used (not the thicker St. Vincent model) which weighed the same as the RF97 (12.6 oz strung), when I was your son's age. Back then, I didn't even consider that racquet to be heavy, and the era of lighter/head heavy racquets was just beginning. I tried the RF97 last Saturday and, although it feels great with its nice plow-through, it's way too wieldy for me (currently 43 years old and not in the best shape). So it's time for me to wield something much lighter, and enter the world of 11oz or less heavy racquets. If I get in shape and improve, I might consider going back to the PS97 (NEVER the RF97), but even if it's taken me years to reluctantly recognize it, I have to play with a racquet which suits my particular needs and addresses my particular limitations. Thus, goodbye PS97, hello PS97LS or PS97L.

Interestingly, the RF97 that I tried belongs to a 50+ gentleman who is in very good shape but does not employ what you would consider a more modern, technically correct advanced swing. He kind of half-swings the ball, not much racquet head speed, and hits flat, but has great directional control. Personally, I don't think he's enjoying the full potential of the plow through abilities of that racquet, as his ball speed is rather slow to medium paced, but he seems to be having good results playing singles at a 3.0 level. As they say, "whatever works!".

-JLD

Thanks for your reply. He has two RF97 rackets. He LOVES them! He also has 5 PS97 rackets. The heaviness of his groundstrokes and the power on his serve with the RF97 was impressive!!!. The problem was that he seemed really tired midway through the second set. Maybe we should revisit it. He has played 575+ USTA matches and has good strokes so that part is not an issue.

 

[gplracer]

Dam! What are you feeding these kids?!

The RF97 will give him a little more stability and plow through on his shots, and he wouldnt have to swing as hard. So it should help with his elbow problems. But he'll have to get used to the weight at first. I'm only 5'7" and I use the RF97, and it works wonders for me.

I have a 21 year old who is 5'8" weird how things turn out.

He does say on the PS97 he has to swing harder.

 

[JLD]

Thanks for the suggestion, it hadn’t occurred to me! Just posted it on that forum, let’s see if they answer.

-JLD

Possibly, you could always post a question to them and ask in the TW questions forum?

 

[USPTARF97]

My son has the PS97. He also has the RF97. I wonder if the extra weight of the RF97 would help his golfers elbow that he is struggling with. My son is 15 years old and 6’3”.

Played a good bit with both and can assure you that the PS97 is tougher on the arm than the RF97. The idea that lighter racquets are easier on the arm was generated by pro shops wanting to sell racquets. Extra weight can be difficult if one has shoulder problems but other than that as a rule it is easier on the arm due to the mass. Also stiffness of racquet comes into play but the stiffness differences between PS97 and RF97 is not as significant an issue as the PS97 being lighter.

Lighter/ Stiffer=Tough on the arm

*especially with stiff strings.

 

[JLD]

Yep, I agree with this. The lighter the racquet, the less it absorbs the weight of an incoming ball, and thus the harder they are on the arm. Having more mass colliding with the ball during the swing results in the racquet absorbing more shock and protecting the arm from additional shock, without a doubt. The problem lies on commencing the swing with a heavier racquet, when you have to have enough preparation, strength and technique to allows you to put that heavy racquet in front of your body as the ball reaches you at high speeds. No problem for an advanced junior and satellite/tour level playing pro with solid technique and great swing speed, tough for a 43-year old slightly out of shape club player. So, the adage that the best racquet is the heaviest one you can successfully wield is usually spot on.

I enjoyed the heck off my PS97, but I was ignoring for years and until recently the fact that it was also presenting disadvantages for my game. Until I improve my technique (which I believe is sound enough), strength and condition (definitely lacking), it's much better to wield a lighter racquet like the PS97LS (which can be modified slightly or significantly should the need arise to improve its lack of plow-through as compared to the PS97). I believe I have enough technique to wield it successfully without risking arm injury, plus it's not THAT light as compared to other racquets (10.8oz to 11.0oz strung), and has an open string pattern which should help. Also, even if I will experiment with a co-poly string at first (Solinco Hyper-G 18 gauge), I will string it at lower tensions and, if necessary, combine it with a softer multifilament string if necessary in the cross strings. It's all about recognizing your limitations and choosing the instrument which, among other important things, may best help you to succeed on the tennis court.

Let's see how this experiment goes!

-JLD

Played a good bit with both and can assure you that the PS97 is tougher on the arm than the RF97. The idea that lighter racquets are easier on the arm was generated by pro shops wanting to sell racquets. Extra weight can be difficult if one has shoulder problems but other than that as a rule it is easier on the arm due to the mass. Also stiffness of racquet comes into play but the stiffness differences between PS97 and RF97 is not as significant an issue as the PS97 being lighter.

Lighter/ Stiffer=Tough on the arm

*especially with stiff strings.

 

[gplracer]

My son’s PS97 with overgrip string and lead tape at 3 and 9 is 344g

His RF97 with an overgrip is 366g

The PS97 is 7 points headlight and the RF97 is 9 points headlight. I wonder it it really makes a difference now that the PS97 has lead tape. That might make it 6 points headlight.

 

[asifallasleep]

Thanks for your reply. He has two RF97 rackets. He LOVES them! He also has 5 PS97 rackets. The heaviness of his groundstrokes and the power on his serve with the RF97 was impressive!!!. The problem was that he seemed really tired midway through the second set. Maybe we should revisit it. He has played 575+ USTA matches and has good strokes so that part is not an issue.

I'd say pick the frame that gives him the best results with the smallest wear and tear on his body.
Which frame allows him to win with the least amount of effort?

Endurance is part of the game, and if he's getting tired from using the RF97 it's probably too heavy.

I would however guess that he probably gets more free points on his serve with the RF97?

He could include some weight training as all the pros and top players do to build his strength.

Heavier frames are just better for your body and joints if you can handle the weight.

The best advice is to use the most heavy racquet you are comfortable playing with.

 

[gplracer]

I'd say pick the frame that gives him the best results with the smallest wear and tear on his body.
Which frame allows him to win with the least amount of effort?

Endurance is part of the game, and if he's getting tired from using the RF97 it's probably too heavy.

I would however guess that he probably gets more free points on his serve with the RF97?

He could include some weight training as all the pros and top players do to build his strength.

Heavier frames are just better for your body and joints if you can handle the weight.

The best advice is to use the most heavy racquet you are comfortable playing with.

Thanks for your suggestions. Ironically he says that the RF97 is easier to play with. He says he does not have to swing as hard to get pace or hit the ball deep. He just needs more endurance.
Now dad still thinks manuevarability is harder. He does get more free points on the serve. It is a rocket ship.

 

[asifallasleep]

Thanks for your suggestions. Ironically he says that the RF97 is easier to play with. He says he does not have to swing as hard to get pace or hit the ball deep. He just needs more endurance.
Now dad still thinks manuevarability is harder. He does get more free points on the serve. It is a rocket ship.

Yep, the RF97 is a much better frame and it does the work for you because of the mass. Stay loose and make contact on the rise out in front and the weight of the frame just clobbers the ball.

Lighter frames can lead to injuries because they don't absorb shock as well and you have to swing so fast to get the ball moving that you can injure your shoulder and joints. How long has he been using the RF97?

What I've done with my RF97's is go to 18 or 19g strings to make them even more headlight, which reduces the static weight a little and makes them more maneuverable and easier to swing.

Check the balance of his frames as with Wilson frames they can be all over the place. I've had soooo many RF97's with balances from 7pts to 11pts HL!!!!

You may be able to go to a lighter gauge string and he might no longer get tired!!!

 

[KaiserW]

Yep, the RF97 is a much better frame and it does the work for you because of the mass. Stay loose and make contact on the rise out in front and the weight of the frame just clobbers the ball.

Lighter frames can lead to injuries because they don't absorb shock as well and you have to swing so fast to get the ball moving that you can injure your shoulder and joints. How long has he been using the RF97?

What I've done with my RF97's is go to 18 or 19g strings to make them even more headlight, which reduces the static weight a little and makes them more maneuverable and easier to swing.

Check the balance of his frames as with Wilson frames they can be all over the place. I've had soooo many RF97's with balances from 7pts to 11pts HL!!!!

You may be able to go to a lighter gauge string and he might no longer get tired!!!

No doubt lighter strings can help. I tried Cyclone 19 and it shaved off 5 grams versus gut/poly. Last time I think I played it too long as it got uncontrollable. Ordered up some Cyclone 18L to try again. This time will not use past 6 outings.

 

[gplracer]

Both of his frames weigh 366 strung with gut/poly and a overgrip. He has had the rackets for about a year. He did not play with them the last three months. He went back to his PS97 rackets but now feels he has to work harder with them to get power.

 

[KaiserW]

I also took off the leather and went to Bab Skin Feel. Shaved 8 grams off. Just some things to consider. I definitely feel it is more manuverable dropping the leather grip.

 

[gplracer]

Great suggestion! My son plays with an over grip anyway.

 

[RanchDressing]

My son has the PS97. He also has the RF97. I wonder if the extra weight of the RF97 would help his golfers elbow that he is struggling with. My son is 15 years old and 6’3”.

Golfer's elbow might be from technique. A lot of issues with injuries, specifically ones that show up after time of playing, come from excessive range of motion more than anything. That's what was causing it for me.
Golfers/tennis elbow I've found good success looking at players wrist involvement in terms of the low to high action into the ball. If he's "wristing" into contact it can load up those tendons really heavily and cause issues that no racquet will fix. The only way to tell is with high speed footage of most likely his forehand. I would look for the angle coming into contact, with the racquet dropped, usually players with GE or TE drop the racquet far below 45 degrees and approach some insane angles. It's really hard to see with the naked eye if you don't know what to look for.

 

[gplracer]

Golfer's elbow might be from technique. A lot of issues with injuries, specifically ones that show up after time of playing, come from excessive range of motion more than anything. That's what was causing it for me.
Golfers/tennis elbow I've found good success looking at players wrist involvement in terms of the low to high action into the ball. If he's "wristing" into contact it can load up those tendons really heavily and cause issues that no racquet will fix. The only way to tell is with high speed footage of most likely his forehand. I would look for the angle coming into contact, with the racquet dropped, usually players with GE or TE drop the racquet far below 45 degrees and approach some insane angles. It's really hard to see with the naked eye if you don't know what to look for.

Thanks for the information. I will look closely at my son’s forehand. He does hit a heavy ball. I thought a contributer might also be that he has team sports at school and plays 50 minutes of basketball everyday now in addition to his tennis. That is the one variable that has changed.

 

[RanchDressing]

Thanks for the information. I will look closely at my son’s forehand. He does hit a heavy ball. I thought a contributer might also be that he has team sports at school and plays 50 minutes of basketball everyday now in addition to his tennis. That is the one variable that has changed.

It's possible. I had issues with my tendons at his age because my bones were growing longer. If you want you can take a few videos, upload them to youtube and send them to me. I'd be happy to take a look and do my best to help you find a solution with his equipment.