Do dropweight machines string tighter a more consistent than crank machines?

[HunterST]

Thinking about upgrading my gamma x2. I’m looking at two machines that are identical except for the fact that one is a dropweight and one is a crank machine.

I know cranks are faster, but are dropweight a superior in most other ways? Two things make me question this:

1. Dropweights are “constant pull” machines.
2. It’s easier, in my experience, to set an exact tension on a dw. The small dial on crank machines that only label every 5 lbs makes it difficult.

If speed isn’t my top priority, would it be better to save the 100 bucks and get the dw over the crank? Or, are there benefits to the crank machines that I’m missing?

 

[Rabbit]

You don’t mention the most important aspects of a machine. They are the mounting system and clamps, both of which are more important than the tensioner. The best, most accurate tensioner in the world is for naught if your frame slips in the mount or your clamps don’t perform.

If you buy a machine with fixed clamps and a solid mounting system, you’re way ahead of the game.

You do mention 5 pound increments. If you can live with that, you’re good. It’s been my experience though that as you get into stringing you’re going to want more.

My advice is to buy more machine than you think you need. You’ll “grow” into it. I would also stay away from flying clamps. The mounting system is usually commensurate with the price. Lastly buy a machine from a reputable brand.

Good luck.

 

[Dags]

The small dial on crank machines that only label every 5 lbs makes it difficult.

Which machine is this? Every crank I've ever seen has increments of 3lbs on the main readout, plus smaller increments of 0,1 and 2 on the adjustment knob. This means that tension can be set to the nearest lb. I can't imagine that any manufacturer would design one otherwise... seems like a rather fundamental requirement!

 

[HunterST]

Which machine is this? Every crank I've ever seen has increments of 3lbs on the main readout, plus smaller increments of 0,1 and 2 on the adjustment knob. This means that tension can be set to the nearest lb. I can't imagine that any manufacturer would design one otherwise... seems like a rather fundamental requirement!

I must be mistaken. I was basing that off of my two experiences stringing on a prince neos. I probably just wasn’t familiar or used to the different machine.

What about the idea of the cranks not being constant pull like a dw?

 

[HunterST]

You don’t mention the most important aspects of a machine. They are the mounting system and clamps, both of which are more important than the tensioner. The best, most accurate tensioner in the world is for naught if your frame slips in the mount or your clamps don’t perform.

If you buy a machine with fixed clamps and a solid mounting system, you’re way ahead of the game.

You do mention 5 pound increments. If you can live with that, you’re good. It’s been my experience though that as you get into stringing you’re going to want more.

My advice is to buy more machine than you think you need. You’ll “grow” into it. I would also stay away from flying clamps. The mounting system is usually commensurate with the price. Lastly buy a machine from a reputable brand.

Good luck.

Thanks! I’m looking at the pros pro challenger and the pros pro pilot. As fats as I can tell, they’re exactly the same other than the tensioner. Both 6 point mounting with fixed clamps.

 

[Irvin]

It would be easier to dial in 0.5 lb tension on a crank than a drop weight. A crank will consistently pull at the exact same tension time after time after time. If you set it to 60 lbs and it is exactly 60 every time you pull. A drop weight constantly pulls at about the set tension. It is only the exact tension is the bar is level.

When stringing with a crank tensioner most stringers only pull one time and the tension will drop some after lockout. But if you pull again it is more accurate than an unlovely drop weight.

 

[Znak]

Thanks! I’m looking at the pros pro challenger and the pros pro pilot. As fats as I can tell, they’re exactly the same other than the tensioner. Both 6 point mounting with fixed clamps.

I have the callenger, it has better clamps and curved rails compared to the pilot. Another member told me that if you get the upgraded clamps on the pilot it comes out to roughly the same price. Btw don't buy their calibrator, mine was off by 13lbs, although they had great customer support and refunded me the money... Better off buying a digital fishing scale for $5 from Jeff Bezos' site.

 

[HunterST]

I have the callenger, it has better clamps and curved rails compared to the pilot. Another member told me that if you get the upgraded clamps on the pilot it comes out to roughly the same price. Btw don't buy their calibrator, mine was off by 13lbs, although they had great customer support and refunded me the money... Better off buying a digital fishing scale for $5 from Jeff Bezos' site.

Interesting! I thought it looked like the challenger had straight rails in the picture. Have you been happy with the challenger? Any wishes you’d gone with the pilot or comet?

 

[Dags]

What about the idea of the cranks not being constant pull like a dw?

I have never strung on a DW. I do prefer my Wise over the crank on my machine... but am not in a position to compare the Wise to a DW.

I’m looking at the pros pro challenger and the pros pro pilot.

I'm not sure it would be much of an upgrade from your current setup. What it is that you want from a new machine that you don't get from the X2?

 

[Rabbit]

It would be easier to dial in 0.5 lb tension on a crank than a drop weight.

The OP didn't mention .5 pounds, he said the increments were in 5 pounds. Reading is fundamental.

 

[Rabbit]

I have never strung on a DW. I do prefer my Wise over the crank on my machine... but am not in a position to compare the Wise to a DW.


I'm not sure it would be much of an upgrade from your current setup. What it is that you want from a new machine that you don't get from the X2?

I have owned a drop weight, crank, and now have a Wise. The drop weight, in all honesty, became tedious and more like work. If it were me, I'd opt for a crank.

 

[Znak]

Interesting! I thought it looked like the challenger had straight rails in the picture. Have you been happy with the challenger? Any wishes you’d gone with the pilot or comet?

Oops I'm talking out of my bum. It's the comet I have, apologies! If you upgrade the pilots clamps it's close to the comet. Happy I went with this one, I'm sure I'd have been happy with the pilot as well but they were out of stock at the time

 

[Kevo]

Given the same machine, one with a drop weight and one with a crank, the crank will give you a string bed that is softer than the drop weight. That's using the standard by the book instructions. You can do things to make the crank closer to a drop weight, but they produce different string beds. The difference is more noticeable with more elastic strings. So to my mind it depends on what kind of string bed you like which one you want.

Also, you could get a crank now and add something like the wise later, which would give you the option of constant pull.

So, in short, you need to know what type of string bed result you like better. It doesn't really matter which one is more "accurate".

 

[1HBHfanatic]

I like the base.clamp system of the cranks, over the DW flying clamp machines, thats it...
I also like the fact that you can buy a wise tensioner for a p.neos 1000 and it becomes a contact pull electric machine.., but thats yet another money expense seperate.. worth it, yes, imo..

I went from a klippermate DW machine to a prince 5000,, and I gladly skipped the crank.series machines

but if I had a crank to start, I would go with the wise tensioner option next. Unless my racket stringing volume demanded more machine

 

[Rabbit]

Given the same machine, one with a drop weight and one with a crank, the crank will give you a string bed that is softer than the drop weight.

My experience was the opposite. My drop weight yielded a much softer string bed.

 

[MrSmith]

I recommend to buy machine from reputable names.
Look for Gamma, Alpha or Stringway.
Do not try to save a few bucks buying Eagnas or Pro pros machines.
Racquet support and quality clamps are very important.
There is nothing wrong using flying clamps.
There always will be some variations in tension for both types of machines. It will take you time to become consistent.
Variations in tension using drop weight machine (unless it's Stringway) maybe higher than using crank machine.
As someone mentioned, crank can be upgraded to wise tensioner.

 

[Kevo]

My experience was the opposite. My drop weight yielded a much softer string bed.

Interesting. I would guess that there was some variable that was not constant between the two machines. Were they actually the same machine with same mounting and clamps, etc.?

 

[Rabbit]

@Kevo, no, the drop weight was a Gamma with flying clamps. I moved from that to a Neos 1000 and then a Neos 1500.

 

[Kevo]

Big difference in the build of those machines. My point was comparing equal machines with only the drop weight and crank being different. Once you throw in different mounting systems, clamps, even material of construction, then you have to evaluate the whole system. Even different kinds of flying clamps can make a noticeable difference.

 

[Irvin]

@HunterST your question is whether a DW or crank will string tighter. But you’re probably not going to ever string at either’s full capacity. Either will do a fine job and if your stringbed isn’t firm enough raise the tension. Everything else is argument for argument sake.

 

[Technatic]

Imo the biggest difference between (constant pull) dropweight and crank is that the final tension in the string depends strongly on the type of string.

So you can not just say: “add …..lbs and you get the same results.

These graphs shows what happens to the tension in the string on a lock out with different types of string.

The loss of tension varies from 10 to 17,6 lbs

 

[Irvin]

@Technatic I could not agree more. All string resist being stretched. The stiffer the string the more it will resist being stretched. But on the other hand all string no matter how stiff it starts out will relax over time. So one way to look at a lockout is it is just a pre-stretching stringing machine.

See this patent https://patents.google.com/patent/U...ing&q=machine&oq=Prestretch+stringing+machine

A lockout will never apply more tension than it set for unless you have a bad stringer. If you pull tension more than one time giving the string time to relax you can get to the point where the tension falls very little. The only reason CP machines have a higher final result when both machine pull at the same tension is the length of pull. Allow the lockout to pull a pre-stretched string and and I believe you will have dramatically different results.

 

[Technatic]

A lockout will never apply more tension than it set for unless you have a bad stringer. If you pull tension more than one time giving the string time to relax you can get to the point where the tension falls very little.

I fully agree this is the hole trick:
When you pull at the same speed as the string can stretch the loss of tension will be very small. The faster you pull the more you loose on the lock out.

The difficulty with strings ,especially monos, is that their stretch behaviour is very different both concerning the speed and the amount of elongation.

We noticed this very well with all the elongation tests that we did.

 

[Irvin]

I fully agree this is the hole trick:
When you pull at the same speed as the string can stretch the loss of tension will be very small. The faster you pull the more you loose on the lock out.

The difficulty with strings ,especially monos, is that their stretch behaviour is very different both concerning the speed and the amount of elongation.

We noticed this very well with all the elongation tests that we did.

You cannot loose something you never had. Now you're talking about tension and not stretch. If I stretch a string it builds up tension in the string. If I tension a string and it stretches 3 cm it make too much difference how the string was stretched slow, fast, DW, LO, or eCP.

On the other hand if I tension a string with a stiffness of 200 lb/in with a LO it may initially stretch 2.0 cm. If I stretch that same string with another type of machine that continued to apply a set tension over time it would initially stretch the string to 2.0 cm but over time it will stretch the string so the string is longer. If I stretch a string with a LO and it stops at 2.0 cm and I wait for the string to relax and pull it again I can get the same result that can be achieved with any other type of tension assembly.

 

[max]

It is my experience that a crank machine does a "softer"/less tension job that an equivalent tension setting on a drop weight.

I use a drop weight and love it. But it is all RELATIVE----if you want a "softer" or less tension job, then just drop the setting on your drop weight by two pounds or so. If you have a crank machine and want a "stiffer" more tension job, then up it two pounds.

 

[max]

I fully agree this is the hole trick:
When you pull at the same speed as the string can stretch the loss of tension will be very small. The faster you pull the more you loose on the lock out.

The difficulty with strings ,especially monos, is that their stretch behaviour is very different both concerning the speed and the amount of elongation.

We noticed this very well with all the elongation tests that we did.

Yeah, this is an important variable. String itself is different. This is why it's good to experiment with a wide range of strings when you first buy a racquet, to get a sense of what works best.

 

[CosmosMpower]

Drop weight is only more consistent if you get the arm to perfectly level every single time which it's nearly impossible to do. Plus most have floating clamps which are inferior to fixed base or glide bar clamps. I would not string anymore if you forced me to use a DW again.

 

[darklore009]

I noticed a big jump in consistency between a fixed vs floating clamp. The fix can hold the string under tension much better than a floating clamp as it can fit into tight places and wont have to rely on a secondary string to hang on to. Both are DW btw. I dont mind using DW, but the fixed clamps and the mounting system matters to most IMO.

 

[max]

Interesting points.

I would hazard----see what you think----that if a man knows he likes his frame done at 55 lbs. by a shop's crank machine. . . and he's used to it, and really likes that tension. . . it is quite possible for him to duplicate the same feel on a drop weight.

It may be the case that in order to do so, he must raise the tension a pound or two, or drop it a pound or two. But the same feel can be achieved.

Given that many drop weight owners merely string for themselves, I think the point's moot. You find what tension gives you the feel you need-----the whole effort of trying to definitely keep all machines equal in calibration is pretty much doomed, I think, since springs, etc., wear down.

I guess there ARE players who need to be able to take their racquets to many different stringers, in many different places, and place the same order with them, and expect the same results. These are pro players. But some travel with their own stringers to ensure dependable results. In my experience playing recreational tennis, each stringer's machine seemed to give individual results----so I would stick with one guy and figure out what worked best for me, given the kind of string job I was getting.

It's hard to feel I'm getting this across well, but read slowly and perhaps it will help. I would assert that a drop weight owner can find the right tension to string his racquet. WOULD the tension he set on his machine be able to be used across the board, on other machines? Perhaps not. But of course, between constant pull there can be some good differences as well.

If I were buying a machine again, I would opt for the fixed clamps, since they seem easier to use. Interestingly enough, when I was a lad, the best string jobs I got were from a fellow who used a Klippermate.

 

[esgee48]

Not once did anyone mention that if a calibrated LO (i.e. 50#) will pull a string to 50# of tension AND that a CP, whether eCP or DW, will also pull that 50# when set. What happens is the LO stops pulling, you clamp and the string starts to relax. This ultimately gives a softer initial DT. If you clamped a DW after it reaches horizontal, it too will start to lose tension, but not as fast.

The DT is different due to remaining static tension losses between LO and CP even if the same ref tension is used. It is strictly due to the longer pulling cycle which takes static elastic tension losses out of any string. [Assume the string is never pulled at more than ref tension assuming no prestretch function.] When you clamp off a longer timed pulled string, you are still clamping a string pulled to ref tension; just that this string has more static elastic tension losses pulled out. It will therefore lose less statically as it sits around. It will feel tighter. As you hit with the frame, the CP/DW stringbed will start to lose tension. Whether both stringbeds settle to about the same tension is not discussed here.

If you are looking for a consistent stringbed, i.e. same RT readings if doing 3 frames, then you should really strive for consistent techniques. No shortcuts. No straightening crosses after clamping; yada. 3 cents.

 

[MathieuR]

One advantage of a cp (and a dropweight is a cp when properly used): it allows you to easily compare playability of different type of strings.

The basic rule is always: when experimenting, only change one variable. When you use a different string on a LO, you will end up with a "unknown" DT even when you use same ref.tension.
With a cp your DT will be closer to your "old" DT.

 

[max]

One thing I do is give strings a pull or long tug prior to stringing, to take out some of that elasticity.

 

[illzoni]

Drop weight is only more consistent if you get the arm to perfectly level every single time which it's nearly impossible to do.

I don't think that's accurate.
I've read elsewhere, and seen illustrations supporting, that getting the dropweight bar perfectly level is a waste of time because the margin of error is significant. Several degrees off level makes minimal difference in tension.

 

[darklore009]

even if the arm isnt straight, as long its within 1~5% from it, its tolerable as its within a decimal away from the actual tension itself. Not like majority of us can notice a difference in such a small scale.

 

[max]

Some math guy a few years ago worked it out to 3%.

 

[am1899]

...as if this hasn’t been debated before. Jesus.

 

[esgee48]

It's been mentioned several times. The factor is Cos(H) where H = 0 [1] for Horizontal or H = 5 deg [0.996] or H = 10 deg [0.985]. If ref tension is 55#, in a perfect world you would pull 55#, 54.8# and 54.2#. If you have a Stringway, this does not apply. If you screw up doing the crosses, you would see more than 1# of error.

 

[am1899]

Indeed, the mechanisms by which a lockout and a cp tension the string are different. But debating whether one or the other is “better,” in some way, is a fool’s errand. Both mechanisms are effective, relevant, and in active use in the industry.

Please allow me to give you some advice. Don’t buy a dropweight machine because a few people on the internet told you they’re more accurate than lockout machines. By the same token, don’t buy a lockout because others have told you they’re plenty accurate and fast. Take your time to truly consider and evaluate what you want out of a new machine. Push your budget to the limit - save longer if you have to. When the time is right, buy the best machine you can afford, from a reputable company who stands behind their product.

 

[Imago]

https://imageshack.com/i/5ilockoutmonosklklj
https://imageshack.com/i/e5lockoutnylonsklj

So, you have to wait about 8-10 seconds for the extension to stop and only then clamp. This will take 6 min more for a string job. What is the use of having an expensive eCP if you are cheap on your time?! Is waiting part of the USRSA protocol - or they don't care?

 

[Irvin]

It's been mentioned several times. The factor is Cos(H) where H = 0 [1] for Horizontal or H = 5 deg [0.996] or H = 10 deg [0.985]. If ref tension is 55#, in a perfect world you would pull 55#, 54.8# and 54.2#. If you have a Stringway, this does not apply. If you screw up doing the crosses, you would see more than 1# of error.

If you have a lockout it's always the same.

 

[MathieuR]

If you have a lockout it's always the same.

No, it is not..

- it depends on cranking-speed
- different strings give completely different "real-tension"-results when using same ref.tension.

 

[Rabbit]

@MathieuR There you go again picking fly s### out of pepper.

 

[Irvin]

No, it is not..

- it depends on cranking-speed
- different strings give completely different "real-tension"-results when using same ref.tension.

IT DOES NOT!!!! Let me say that is simple terms, no matter what speed you turn your crank, no matter what type of string you're using, no matter what gauge string your using, no matter how long the string is, no matter what if you using a lockout in good condition the lockout is at the same tension time after time after time. I wish I would have make a video of an experiment I did once on my Gamma 6004 with my Peak Hold meter. I used my lockout set to 60 lbs and used different string (SG, multi, and poly) strings and gauges. I believe I had about 12 scraps laying around. It did not matter if I pulled 1 time, 2 times, or 3 times the lockout always occurred at the same peak tension.

Now if you start adding human factors in there all bets are off. Of course different strings will stretch at different rates. If you allow a string to be stretched for a period of time then measure tension you my get a totally different value with the same exact string. If you use a spring tension calibrator instead of a more accurate one you may get errors in how the tension is read especially if it is read at different time intervals.

When the LO locks out unless you have changed the tension or if the angle of the string going into the gripper changes (Never happens with a Gamma String Guide) the lock out tension is the same every time with every string in every gauge. I'm not saying the final tension on a string is the same with a lockout, I'm saying lockout occurs at the same tension every time.

 

[jwocky]

You are all derailing/trolling each other.

I believe there is agreement that once each instrument has been calibrated:
1. a perfectly horizontal bar on some typical drop weights (Klippermate, Gamma) "delivers" closest to ref tension
2. a lockout locks at the ref tension set on the dial and "delivers" closest to ref tension
3. an eCP pulls to maintain the ref tension set on the dial and "delivers" closest to ref tension

AND

For a given target racquet variations in the "result" are from:
a. time to clamp - consistency (or inconsistency) related to rhythm
b. clamp type (manual, semi-automatic, automatic) and other machine specific variables
c. elasticity (stiffness) of the string
d. time between stringing and measurement of "result"
e. other individual stringer idiosyncracies

NOTE: "delivers" and "result" are in quotes because the delivery goal for the stringer is (should be?) the resulting dynamic tension / string bed stiffness that the player expects, and using any of those devices with the various levers available one can achieve the same, imperceptibly close, DT or SBS.

Select an instrument with which to measure DT/SBS, and set a target DT using a target model of string on a target model of a racquet. The target DT can be achieved using any of the variety of machines available, but not necessarily using the same ref tension setting on each - another point on which most here would find agreement.

 

[max]

At the end of the day, this is kind of like the Cart Before the Horse.

Let's say you like the way a string job is working for you. You find out it was 55 lbs. tension. It's unrealistic, for all the above reasons, to expect the same result the next time, perhaps even with the same stringer.

The number you request, 55 lbs., is irrelevant to the outcome on the court. For some machines and stringers, to get the same Outcome, you'd have them string at 58 pounds. For others, to get the same Outcome, you'd need 53 pounds.

The number's a handy guide, but in the end, the Feel on Court/Outcome is what you want to duplicate.

You're most likely to duplicate that feel using the same string (the same aged string),the same stringer and the same machine. . . using the same frame, of course. And in this situation, the number you give the stringer does matter. Overall, The Feel/Outcome matters, not the number in your head.

 

[MathieuR]

There you go again picking fly s### out of pepper.

I prefer my pepper without s###, but maybe that's a Dutch thing

 

[Irvin]

You are all derailing/trolling each other.

I believe there is agreement that once each instrument has been calibrated:
1. a perfectly horizontal bar on some typical drop weights (Klippermate, Gamma) "delivers" closest to ref tension
2. a lockout locks at the ref tension set on the dial and "delivers" closest to ref tension
3. an eCP pulls to maintain the ref tension set on the dial and "delivers" closest to ref tension

AND

For a given target racquet variations in the "result" are from:
a. time to clamp - consistency (or inconsistency) related to rhythm
b. clamp type (manual, semi-automatic, automatic) and other machine specific variables
c. elasticity (stiffness) of the string
d. time between stringing and measurement of "result"
e. other individual stringer idiosyncracies

NOTE: "delivers" and "result" are in quotes because the delivery goal for the stringer is (should be?) the resulting dynamic tension / string bed stiffness that the player expects, and using any of those devices with the various levers available one can achieve the same, imperceptibly close, DT or SBS.

Select an instrument with which to measure DT/SBS, and set a target DT using a target model of string on a target model of a racquet. The target DT can be achieved using any of the variety of machines available, but not necessarily using the same ref tension setting on each - another point on which most here would find agreement.

So, Do dropweight machines string tighter a more consistent than crank machines?

 

[jwocky]

So, Do dropweight machines string tighter a more consistent than crank machines?

@Irvin
I belong to the school that a desired SBS can be achieved regardless of machine type, but given all the variables involved that this is necessarily an iterative process for a given combination human stringer, stringer's specific machine and type, specific string, specific racquet.

For a given ref tension debating which type of device generates a tighter string bed is generally a waste of everyone's time.

 

[Irvin]

I think feel and how you play is king. It don’t matter how you get there.

 

[max]

I think feel and how you play is king. It don’t matter how you get there.

Exactly. For me, funny enough, I found that when I switched strings, I would have to sometimes have a tension adjustment, too.

And I ain't the most "string sensitive" player in the world.