DQ?

[rod99]

i'm an upper level 4.5 and signed up for an 8.0 mixed doubles team just for fun. i'm noticed that a couple higher level 4.5 guys also signed up for a team and noticed that they had a self-rated 3.5 lady on their roster.

when i looked at her record i noticed that she has only played in 4.0 leagues this spring. she's gone 9-2 and has played singles and doubles. a couple of her wins were against 3.5s (she won easily) who were playing up, but she's also beaten several higher level 4.0s. tennisrecord (fwiw) has her at a at a 3.78.

how has she not accumulated 3 strikes by now that would DQ her and bump her to a 4.0??

 

[kevrol]

Welcome to the world of mixed doubles.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

i'm an upper level 4.5 and signed up for an 8.0 mixed doubles team just for fun. i'm noticed that a couple higher level 4.5 guys also signed up for a team and noticed that they had a self-rated 3.5 lady on their roster.

when i looked at her record i noticed that she has only played in 4.0 leagues this spring. she's gone 9-2 and has played singles and doubles. a couple of her wins were against 3.5s (she won easily) who were playing up, but she's also beaten several higher level 4.0s. tennisrecord (fwiw) has her at a at a 3.78.

how has she not accumulated 3 strikes by now that would DQ her and bump her to a 4.0??

lol, welcome to the world of usta sandbagging
she's probably on the cusp of getting bumped.
not sure that mixed results factor into one's personal ratings.

tr, tls... just there for entertainment val... i wouldn't put much stock in it, as usta can/will adjust ratings based on how they want to distribute the various ntrp buckets... in the end, it behooves the usta to keep that 3.78 playing at 8.0 (ie. if she gets bumped to 4.0, arguably she won't be able to find a partner, and therefore possibly lost revs for usta (ie. no 8.0 team registration fee)). my $0.02

 

[Hmgraphite1]

I thought I read that anything over 3.5 is 4.0
So 3.51 is 4.0
4.01 is 4.5

 

[kevrol]

I thought I read that anything over 3.5 is 4.0
So 3.51 is 4.0
4.01 is 4.5

You did and that's correct. Just remember we don't know this players actual rating. Also the player is self rated now. They won't be computer rated until end of November/early December unless they get dynamically dq'd.

 

[rod99]

lol, welcome to the world of usta sandbagging
she's probably on the cusp of getting bumped.
not sure that mixed results factor into one's personal ratings.

tr, tls... just there for entertainment val... i wouldn't put much stock in it, as usta can/will adjust ratings based on how they want to distribute the various ntrp buckets... in the end, it behooves the usta to keep that 3.78 playing at 8.0 (ie. if she gets bumped to 4.0, arguably she won't be able to find a partner, and therefore possibly lost revs for usta (ie. no 8.0 team registration fee)). my $0.02

these are not mixed results, as the mixed season will not start until the end of may. however she has registered on an 8.0 team as a 3.5 and i can't believe that she hasn't been DQd based on her 11 results in 4.0 matches (all of which count toward your rating).

i understand tr/tls are not accurate, i'm just throwing her tr record out there as an fyi.

 

[heninfan99]

these are not mixed results, as the mixed season will not start until the end of may. however she has registered on an 8.0 team as a 3.5 and i can't believe that she hasn't been DQd based on her 11 results in 4.0 matches (all of which count toward your rating).

i understand tr/tls are not accurate, i'm just throwing her tr record out there as an fyi.

maybe you can still beat their team in mixed.

 

[schmke]

i'm an upper level 4.5 and signed up for an 8.0 mixed doubles team just for fun. i'm noticed that a couple higher level 4.5 guys also signed up for a team and noticed that they had a self-rated 3.5 lady on their roster.

when i looked at her record i noticed that she has only played in 4.0 leagues this spring. she's gone 9-2 and has played singles and doubles. a couple of her wins were against 3.5s (she won easily) who were playing up, but she's also beaten several higher level 4.0s. tennisrecord (fwiw) has her at a at a 3.78.

how has she not accumulated 3 strikes by now that would DQ her and bump her to a 4.0??

This may be another situation where because the player is only playing 4.0, the LC is ignoring the DQ since it wouldn't affect her Adult league playing status. The DQ should not be ignored for this very reason though, of being able to sign-up as a 3.5 on an 8.0X team, perhaps they'll finally pay attention.

 

[rod99]

This may be another situation where because the player is only playing 4.0, the LC is ignoring the DQ since it wouldn't affect her Adult league playing status. The DQ should not be ignored for this very reason though, of being able to sign-up as a 3.5 on an 8.0X team, perhaps they'll finally pay attention.

so this has happened in the past and the player has not been DQd? this obviously has a big effect on mixed and combo.

 

[kevrol]

This may be another situation where because the player is only playing 4.0, the LC is ignoring the DQ since it wouldn't affect her Adult league playing status. The DQ should not be ignored for this very reason though, of being able to sign-up as a 3.5 on an 8.0X team, perhaps they'll finally pay attention.

Probably on the LC's combo and mixed teams.

 

[schmke]

so this has happened in the past and the player has not been DQd? this obviously has a big effect on mixed and combo.

I have seen other cases where it seemed pretty clear that a player playing up should be DQ'd promoted, but they were not. One explanation is that they are just ignoring it since they are only playing up and doing the DQ/promotion wouldn't affect standings or eligibility of the player to keep playing up on the team.

 

[time_fly]

Welcome to the world of mixed doubles.

Mixed is pretty f'ed up because nobody fears disqualification and the ratings are wonky. A few weeks ago I played a college age ex-HS woman who self-rated at 3.0. She was lefty and had 4 aces in our match and could hit the curtain on the fly with her first serve. She had great ground strokes though to be fair her volleys were a bit weak, but she was no 3.0. We have another team in our league with 5 players who have computer "mixed only" ratings and a combined 35-0 match record. The team has swept 14 out of its last 16 matches.

 

[leech]

This may be another situation where because the player is only playing 4.0, the LC is ignoring the DQ since it wouldn't affect her Adult league playing status. The DQ should not be ignored for this very reason though, of being able to sign-up as a 3.5 on an 8.0X team, perhaps they'll finally pay attention.

Hmmm, do league coordinators have discretion on whether to disqualify a self-rated player? I assumed dynamic disqualification is an automated process (three strikes and you're out...not "three strikes and you'll be considered for disqualification").

 

[rod99]

Hmmm, do league coordinators have discretion on whether to disqualify a self-rated player? I assumed dynamic disqualification is an automated process (three strikes and you're out...not "three strikes and you'll be considered for disqualification").

that was my assumption as well. someone correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[time_fly]

I'm a team captain not a real USTA insider but I'm 90% certain LCs have some discretion on rating changes.

 

[schmke]

Hmmm, do league coordinators have discretion on whether to disqualify a self-rated player? I assumed dynamic disqualification is an automated process (three strikes and you're out...not "three strikes and you'll be considered for disqualification").

I don't think it is fully automated. I think an LC has to run a report or otherwise check, and then do something to send the notification and record it in the system.

 

[OnTheLine]

I know our LLC runs the report every Wednesday ... one of the reasons there is a hard and fast rule about getting all scores in from a weekend match not later than Tuesday at noon.

 

[SGM1980]

i'm an upper level 4.5 and signed up for an 8.0 mixed doubles team just for fun. i'm noticed that a couple higher level 4.5 guys also signed up for a team and noticed that they had a self-rated 3.5 lady on their roster.

when i looked at her record i noticed that she has only played in 4.0 leagues this spring. she's gone 9-2 and has played singles and doubles. a couple of her wins were against 3.5s (she won easily) who were playing up, but she's also beaten several higher level 4.0s. tennisrecord (fwiw) has her at a at a 3.78.

how has she not accumulated 3 strikes by now that would DQ her and bump her to a 4.0??

So... I think this is the lady I just posted about? Are you in Southern section? Are her initials LS??

 

[rod99]

So... I think this is the lady I just posted about? Are you in Southern section? Are her initials LS??

ding ding ding

 

[SGM1980]

ding ding ding

I thought is sounded terribly familiar.

I don't know what the process is for asking her league coordinator to look at her rating. I agree it doesn't matter for Spring because she's only playing 4.0, but if she plays 3.5 singles or gets on a mixed court with a 4.5 guys it's going to be patently unfair.

I'm not in her area, actually - I played her because I joined a team in her area to get a little more playing this Spring. So I din't think I can do anything. But your captain may want to look into it.

 

[rod99]

I thought is sounded terribly familiar.

I don't know what the process is for asking her league coordinator to look at her rating. I agree it doesn't matter for Spring because she's only playing 4.0, but if she plays 3.5 singles or gets on a mixed court with a 4.5 guys it's going to be patently unfair.

I'm not in her area, actually - I played her because I joined a team in her area to get a little more playing this Spring. So I din't think I can do anything. But your captain may want to look into it.

i just sent an email to one of the league coordinators asking them to make sure that she is DQd (if they have any say so in this) if the system says she should be DQd, even though it wouldn't affect her spring season.

 

[SGM1980]

i just sent an email to one of the league coordinators asking them to make sure that she is DQd (if they have any say so in this) if the system says she should be DQd, even though it wouldn't affect her spring season.

Ha! I just checked, and she's on a team in my 8.0 league in the area "next door," too, with a ton a ringers from last year. So I now have a vested interest in making sure she gets bumped! Please PM me with what you hear if you wouldn't mind.

 

[kevrol]

Former D1 softball players probably translate well to tennis.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Mixed is pretty f'ed up because nobody fears disqualification and the ratings are wonky. A few weeks ago I played a college age ex-HS woman who self-rated at 3.0. She was lefty and had 4 aces in our match and could hit the curtain on the fly with her first serve. She had great ground strokes though to be fair her volleys were a bit weak, but she was no 3.0. We have another team in our league with 5 players who have computer "mixed only" ratings and a combined 35-0 match record. The team has swept 14 out of its last 16 matches.

lol, curtain on the fly... that's *my* marker of a good serve (4.5M)

 

[rod99]

Ha! I just checked, and she's on a team in my 8.0 league in the area "next door," too, with a ton a ringers from last year. So I now have a vested interest in making sure she gets bumped! Please PM me with what you hear if you wouldn't mind.

so the LC just replied. she claims that she has no control over any part of the DQ process. then she explained the process of filing a grievance, which i'm already aware of.

so if the LC has no input on a dynamic DQ then it makes absolutely no sense why this person has not already been DQd. what is considered a strike is subjective, but conservatively she probably has 7 or 8 strikes already.

am i missing something?

 

[schmke]

so the LC just replied. she claims that she has no control over any part of the DQ process. then she explained the process of filing a grievance, which i'm already aware of.

so if the LC has no input on a dynamic DQ then it makes absolutely no sense why this person has not already been DQd. what is considered a strike is subjective, but conservatively she probably has 7 or 8 strikes already.

am i missing something?

Did she say that she administers the process even if she has no control? Or is that left to someone above her so she has no role at all?

 

[SGM1980]

so the LC just replied. she claims that she has no control over any part of the DQ process. then she explained the process of filing a grievance, which i'm already aware of.

so if the LC has no input on a dynamic DQ then it makes absolutely no sense why this person has not already been DQd. what is considered a strike is subjective, but conservatively she probably has 7 or 8 strikes already.

am i missing something?

My lady said the same thing! She said the only thing you could do was prove she lied on her self rating assessment. She recommended i research her on the internet!

She didn't give me a straight answer about the dynamic rating part. So I'm super confused about how on earth this works. If the league coordinator doesn't do it and it's not done automatically, then how the hell are people getting DQed??

 

[rod99]

Did she say that she administers the process even if she has no control? Or is that left to someone above her so she has no role at all?

she said that anything that has to do with ratings is above her.

i then emailed the state adult coordinator who said that the dynamic DQ process if fully automated.

it's impossible that this player hasn't already picked up 3 strikes.

 

[J_R_B]

I think in Middle States, it's the sectional coordinator that does the strike report. The LLCs may not have that authority.

 

[OnTheLine]

A player I know was DQed a month or so ago ... the letter and phone call came from the LLC. Per discussions with the LLC it is done out of that office here based on reports or whatever she runs.

 

[brettatk]

A couple of guys on my team were DQ'ed a few years ago. I was co-captain so me and the captain sent a few emails to our local USTA office inquiring about it. We were told in our Section that the Southern NTRP Administrator runs reports daily to see if anyone shows up with DQ status. That leads me to believe that only when a grievance is filed will someone actually look into a player, everything else is automated by the computer. So in situations like this since they haven't played any 3.5 matches that would count towards their rating, the computer isn't going to flag any of their 4.0 matches as strikes.

 

[travlerajm]

Just play tennis folks. Or maybe wait until you face her on the court and play mind games by asking which one of them is the 4.5?

 

[schmke]

she said that anything that has to do with ratings is above her.

i then emailed the state adult coordinator who said that the dynamic DQ process if fully automated.

it's impossible that this player hasn't already picked up 3 strikes.

I find that really really hard to believe. 10-2 playing only 4.0 and doing so with 3.5 partners at times.

 

[SGM1980]

I just emailed the sectional coordinator. Didn't see that @rod99 had already done it. If she comes back and tells me that strikes are automatic and this person doesn't have any ... Well, i guess i don't know what to say. I simply can't believe that can be true. According to tennisrecord - whatever that's worth - her very second match had a rating of 3.8. she beat a 4.0 on court 1 singles like 2 and 3...

 

[samiam158]

these are not mixed results, as the mixed season will not start until the end of may. however she has registered on an 8.0 team as a 3.5 and i can't believe that she hasn't been DQd based on her 11 results in 4.0 matches (all of which count toward your rating).

i understand tr/tls are not accurate, i'm just throwing her tr record out there as an fyi.

If I read correctly she self rated at a 3.5 but is playing up on a 4.0. Can you get disqualified when your playing at the level you “really” are? I mean if she self rated and it gave her a 3.5 and she’s not playing that level, technically she hasn’t done anything wrong?

Don’t know what happens when she plays mixed. What if she only played with 4.0 men? As a woman playing in the women’s league they won’t adjust my rating if I play mixed. It only counts in women’s. Now if I don’t play women then the mixed league can adjust my rating.
Does any of that make sense?

 

[brettatk]

If I read correctly she self rated at a 3.5 but is playing up on a 4.0. Can you get disqualified when your playing at the level you “really” are? I mean if she self rated and it gave her a 3.5 and she’s not playing that level, technically she hasn’t done anything wrong?

Don’t know what happens when she plays mixed. What if she only played with 4.0 men? As a woman playing in the women’s league they won’t adjust my rating if I play mixed. It only counts in women’s. Now if I don’t play women then the mixed league can adjust my rating.
Does any of that make sense?

That's what I've been wondering as well. How can they expect her to get any strikes playing 4.0? I'm betting if she ever did play 3.5 she'd be DQ'ed pretty quickly but until then nothing is going to happen. Certainly seems to be a flaw in the system but I'm guessing it doesn't get exploited to the extent that they feel it needs attention. Perhaps if enough people complain about these type players to the LC then they'll start focusing more attention on them.

 

[J_R_B]

http://www.tennisrecord.com/adult/matchhistory.aspx?year=2016&playername=Paul Caruso&lt=-1

TR.com rated every one of this guy's matches as a strike in 2016. Every one. All 11. And every single one at least 0.15 over the strike threshold. He was not actually DQ'd, so there can be some huge disconnects between TR and the actual USTA NTRP.

 

[kevrol]

That's what I've been wondering as well. How can they expect her to get any strikes playing 4.0? I'm betting if she ever did play 3.5 she'd be DQ'ed pretty quickly but until then nothing is going to happen. Certainly seems to be a flaw in the system but I'm guessing it doesn't get exploited to the extent that they feel it needs attention. Perhaps if enough people complain about these type players to the LC then they'll start focusing more attention on them.

I have an example of a lady who self-rated 2.5 in August and is only playing 3.0. When she registered for 18+ team her rating was 2.5. Her rating is now showing as 3.0S after 4 singles matches. Now I'm not sure if the player appealed up or if the system bumped her to 3.0. Would a self rated player who appeals show as a 3.0A or a 3.0S?

 

[OnTheLine]

I have an example of a lady who self-rated 2.5 in August and is only playing 3.0. When she registered for 18+ team her rating was 2.5. Her rating is now showing as 3.0S after 4 singles matches. Now I'm not sure if the player appealed up or if the system bumped her to 3.0. Would a self rated player who appeals show as a 3.0A or a 3.0S?

My understanding is it would show as a 3.0A

Oddly, local player got DQ'ed in 3.0 and "promoted" to 3.5 .. is now on a 3.5 team and she shows as a 3.0D

 

[schmke]

http://www.tennisrecord.com/adult/matchhistory.aspx?year=2016&playername=Paul Caruso&lt=-1

TR.com rated every one of this guy's matches as a strike in 2016. Every one. All 11. And every single one at least 0.15 over the strike threshold. He was not actually DQ'd, so there can be some huge disconnects between TR and the actual USTA NTRP.

Well, TR is likely just completely wrong on the guy like you say ... :O . My ratings had him with no clear strikes in 2016, although he was right on the edge at the end of the year and may have had two.

I doubt the USTA misses on many/any at-level DQ's, it is the playing up ones where they seem to ignore them once in awhile.

 

[samiam158]

http://www.tennisrecord.com/adult/matchhistory.aspx?year=2016&playername=Paul Caruso&lt=-1

TR.com rated every one of this guy's matches as a strike in 2016. Every one. All 11. And every single one at least 0.15 over the strike threshold. He was not actually DQ'd, so there can be some huge disconnects between TR and the actual USTA NTRP.

Where does it say it’s a strike?

 

[kylebarendrick]

That's what I've been wondering as well. How can they expect her to get any strikes playing 4.0? I'm betting if she ever did play 3.5 she'd be DQ'ed pretty quickly but until then nothing is going to happen. Certainly seems to be a flaw in the system but I'm guessing it doesn't get exploited to the extent that they feel it needs attention. Perhaps if enough people complain about these type players to the LC then they'll start focusing more attention on them.

I've seen lots of people get the DQ/promotion while only playing "up". Don't think of a strike as a punishment. It is simply a dynamic rating from a match that is above a threshold set for your level. For what it is worth, my understanding is that threshold is actually well into the next level. Her self rating is 3.5. If she gets three dynamics above the threshold at 3.5 (call it 3.70) then her rating will be adjusted to 4.0. No harm no foul since she's only playing 4.0 anyway.

But if her ratings are in the lower end of the 4.0 range, then she may not be generating strikes. I'd be surprised if she doesn't get a year0end bump though.

 

[JavierLW]

i'm an upper level 4.5 and signed up for an 8.0 mixed doubles team just for fun. i'm noticed that a couple higher level 4.5 guys also signed up for a team and noticed that they had a self-rated 3.5 lady on their roster.

when i looked at her record i noticed that she has only played in 4.0 leagues this spring. she's gone 9-2 and has played singles and doubles. a couple of her wins were against 3.5s (she won easily) who were playing up, but she's also beaten several higher level 4.0s. tennisrecord (fwiw) has her at a at a 3.78.

how has she not accumulated 3 strikes by now that would DQ her and bump her to a 4.0??

If you happen to be playing in a 4.0 League and you come across a 3.5 rated player, your rating outcome is going to be Exactly the same as had you met them in the 3.5 League. So that part of it makes it no surprise that she hasn't exactly gotten struck out, the matches against 3.5 opponents would actually pull her rating down even if she did blow them out.

If you played half of your matches against 3.5's and half against 4.0's, it would be a crapshoot as to whether you even end up as a 4.0 or a 3.5. It's doubtful you'd get DQ'ed or even rated up to 4.5 at the end of the year. (whether that's all in one league or if you play in both leagues)

The Sections have the full Authority over Ratings. The District Coordinators get information from them about DQ's.

I have suspected though in our own Section that they've looked the other way when players get DQ'd. Sometimes the Section people are buddies with the Local people who are buddies with the actual players in questions and their clubs, so what do you think happens?...... (and usually these relationships happen from the Playoffs so the teams that go EVERY YEAR have an advantage)

 

[JavierLW]

http://www.tennisrecord.com/adult/matchhistory.aspx?year=2016&playername=Paul Caruso&lt=-1

Those are not all strikes even if it was accurate.

Strikes come from the Calculation of your Latest Match Results Averaged in with your last 3 Ratings (or year end rating). That number is what results in a strike, not the match itself.

You'd have to look at the column on the right to guess whether it's a strike or not.

(it would have to go over a certain amount past 4.50, and we do not know what that amount is because the USTA wont tell us, this person didnt get it past .03 over)

 

[brettatk]

It might also had been purely innocent. Perhaps someone told her to self rate at 3.5 if she

I've seen lots of people get the DQ/promotion while only playing "up". Don't think of a strike as a punishment. It is simply a dynamic rating from a match that is above a threshold set for your level. For what it is worth, my understanding is that threshold is actually well into the next level. Her self rating is 3.5. If she gets three dynamics above the threshold at 3.5 (call it 3.70) then her rating will be adjusted to 4.0. No harm no foul since she's only playing 4.0 anyway.

But if her ratings are in the lower end of the 4.0 range, then she may not be generating strikes. I'd be surprised if she doesn't get a year0end bump though.

That makes sense. Yeah, I'd bet she'll get bumped at year end.

 

[J_R_B]

Where does it say it’s a strike?

It doesn't explicitly. But he was playing as a 4.0S rated player that year. The strike threshold for 4.0S players is somewhere around 4.20 (i.e. 4.18, 4.19, 4.20, something like that). His minimum match rating is 4.35, which is a high 4.5 level. 5 of the matches are over 4.50, which is actually a 5.0 level match rating for a 4.0 player, yet no DQ. TR was off on his rating by what appears to be a full rating level for every match.

TR is interesting and a useful tool, but this is just a warning against trusting those numbers as gospel. They are often wrong and sometimes REALLY wrong.

 

[OnTheLine]

.

TR is interesting and a useful tool, but this is just a warning against trusting those numbers as gospel. They are often wrong and sometimes REALLY wrong.

Yup ... and can be wrong in both directions, both too high AND too low ..... they do not have the magical USTA special rating sauce.

 

[samiam158]

It doesn't explicitly. But he was playing as a 4.0S rated player that year. The strike threshold for 4.0S players is somewhere around 4.20 (i.e. 4.18, 4.19, 4.20, something like that). His minimum match rating is 4.35, which is a high 4.5 level. 5 of the matches are over 4.50, which is actually a 5.0 level match rating for a 4.0 player, yet no DQ. TR was off on his rating by what appears to be a full rating level for every match.

TR is interesting and a useful tool, but this is just a warning against trusting those numbers as gospel. They are often wrong and sometimes REALLY wrong.

yes that i already know.....people moving up a notch and others not.......all looking at TR and expecting things to happen and they didn't

 

[rod99]

i emailed the southern ntrp manager who is based in atlanta. she says that she can't discuss a specific player's rating but she did say that it's an automated system that DQs a player and the league coordinators have no involvement in dynamic DQs. she also said that if a player is only playing "up" then they would still be eligible to be DQd from their self-rate level.

all of this make sense. but apparently what constitutes a strikes needs to be revisited and adjusted. b/c there is no way that a reasonable person wouldn't see that this player has in excess of 5 strikes already.

 

[time_fly]

My team played a 7.0 mixed match this weekend against a young (under 30) self-rated 3.5 guy that suspiciously could hit serves so hard that I had trouble following them from side-on by the net post on the next court over, and who hit several beautiful defensive ground strokes while sliding on the hard court. I found his Div 2 tennis bio online later.