Free will, is it real?

Does free will exist?

  • Yup, I freely chose this answer

    Votes: 19 51.4%
  • Nope, I was compelled to select this option

    Votes: 7 18.9%
  • Dunno, the voice in my head is quiet on this one

    Votes: 5 13.5%
  • Other

    Votes: 6 16.2%

  • Total voters
    37

Northern

Hall of Fame
derailed_by_isthedodge-d4jjx5p.gif
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Science and religion are different things, which I think is the reason why you can have priests that are scientists. Everybody has beliefs, the question is what kind of beliefs you have, and what they are based on.

Science is the only religion
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Anything that can be implemented in software can be implemented in hardware, and the other way also, so who cares if there is a physical reality we can apparently perceive.

That got me thinking. I think the "other way" is not true. In quantum computing, the hardware which exhibits true random quantum behavior cannot be simulated by deterministic software. In other words, it has been proven that only quantum computers can simulate quantum systems.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” - Einstein.

I would rather be able to see and have a slight limp, rather than being unable to see, thank you.

Einstein made such inclusive statements in his early days, maybe due to the necessity of keeping his people together in the face of persecution. Later, he made very attacking comments against religion.

Also, he wasn't a great independent thinker like me.
 

Zara

G.O.A.T.
I would rather be able to see and have a slight limp, rather than being unable to see, thank you.

Einstein made such inclusive statements in his early days, maybe due to the necessity of keeping his people together in the face of persecution. Later, he made very attacking comments against religion.

Also, he wasn't a great independent thinker like me.

"Einstein called himself an agnostic rather than an atheist, stating: "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal god is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."[13] In an interview published by the German poet George Sylvester Viereck, Einstein stated, "I am not an Atheist."[10] According to Prince Hubertus, Einstein said, "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."[25]

In 1945 Guy Raner, Jr. wrote a letter to Einstein, asking him if it was true that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein to convert from atheism. Einstein replied, "I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist. ... It is always misleading to use anthropomorphical concepts in dealing with things outside the human sphere—childish analogies. We have to admire in humility the beautiful harmony of the structure of this world—as far as we can grasp it, and that is all."[26]

In a 1950 letter to M. Berkowitz, Einstein stated that "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."

According to biographer Walter Isaacson, Einstein was more inclined to denigrate atheists than religious people.[27] Einstein said in correspondence, "[T]he fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres."[27][28] Although he did not believe in a personal God, he indicated that he would never seek to combat such belief because "such a belief seems to me preferable to the lack of any transcendental outlook."[29]"
 

Northern

Hall of Fame
That got me thinking. I think the "other way" is not true. In quantum computing, the hardware which exhibits true random quantum behavior cannot be simulated by deterministic software. In other words, it has been proven that only quantum computers can simulate quantum systems.
What you say isn't true, because you can simulate a quantum computer with a non-quantum computer. It's just very (extremely) inefficient, but the models are not incompatible. Quantum computers don't violate the CT Thesis.
 

Zara

G.O.A.T.
I so adore the concept of writing letters to others. It's a lost art now. Now I only see this when I watch movies of old times - even that is rare. Technology has taken so many beautiful things away from us.
 
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Northern

Hall of Fame
I would rather be able to see and have a slight limp, rather than being unable to see, thank you.

Einstein made such inclusive statements in his early days, maybe due to the necessity of keeping his people together in the face of persecution. Later, he made very attacking comments against religion.

Also, he wasn't a great independent thinker like me.
My computer's SPU just blew up, thanks much.
 

Zara

G.O.A.T.
It's so interesting how different the two quantum worlds are - micro and macro. But the strangest has to be the way the particles behave when you observe them. I always wanted to know if the behaviour of these particles are random (doubt it) or depends on the observer. If observer then do they carry out certain behaviour based on who's observing or do they all behave the same way regardless of who's observing?
 
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Zara

G.O.A.T.
I would rather be able to see and have a slight limp, rather than being unable to see, thank you.

Einstein made such inclusive statements in his early days, maybe due to the necessity of keeping his people together in the face of persecution. Later, he made very attacking comments against religion.

Also, he wasn't a great independent thinker like me.

There's a very good reason why Einstein made that quote. They are both eternally connected. Religion directly or indirectly gave birth to Science. A group of people back then decided to explore the Universe outside religion, outside God - but religion was used as a reference point. Without it, science would have not known where to start and nothing can change that.
 

Northern

Hall of Fame
Science is not a religion. It is the THE religion.

It is a way of life for me.
No, it is not THE religion because it isn't even A religion. It's like saying that your uncle is THE aunt. It is not even AN aunt, so how can it be THE aunt? Unless you are talking of Mrs. Doubtfire, of coarse.

mrs.-doubtfire-small.jpg
 

stringertom

Bionic Poster
I would rather be able to see and have a slight limp, rather than being unable to see, thank you.

Einstein made such inclusive statements in his early days, maybe due to the necessity of keeping his people together in the face of persecution. Later, he made very attacking comments against religion.

Also, he wasn't a great independent thinker like me.
If Einstein had half your appetite and subsequently sat a very long time on the toilet in the Rodin posture he might have posited the theory of relativity as Theo equals Vanessa times Rudy squared.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Whatever real or not.

I'm so glad this happened


@MichaelNadal

I always hated how you can BARELY hear Britney's powdery voice in this performance, and Michael sounds great lol.

Michael Jackson is epic.

Britney is talentless. God I hated her. My friend at school was obsessed with her. :rolleyes: She’s not even that that attractive tbh.

Talent 0/10
Attractiveness 6/10
Marketing team 10/10

I used to say that all the time, my cousin was obsessed with Britney, I would joke that they'd call her when her album was ready :D
 

Zara

G.O.A.T.
Fair amount to digest here. I'll try to distill some of it.

But first of all, whether I'm thinking optimistically or pessimistically--generally speaking--is not relevant here. Only because I'm speaking hypothetically about motivators. One's perceived value to the world should not necessarily be dependent on leveraging opportunity. Suffice to say that intrinsically our objectives become more crystallized with the awareness of a finite window in which to work.

W/r/t purpose, sometimes it may not even be realized until extreme duress forces the mind to come to such a realization. If such events are part of some divine master plan, that is certainly at odds with the notion of rising to challenges on the strength of our own internal ambitions and aspirations.

In all honesty, my first thought when I read your post was about the validity of one person's views over another. And I'm even weighing the views of the classical theorists and philosophers here. At the end of the day, every successive generation has the benefit of an ever more expansive collective school of thought. Does it bring about greater clarity?

When we take a look at suffering we see that it's associated with feeling. If there's no feeling there's no suffering. Without the suffering, we are not exposed to the negative feelings such as grief, sadness, depression, anger, illness, guilt, shame etc. In other words, there's no way of knowing the existence of these negative emotions unless we cause to experience these through (only) suffering. And the higher the suffering the greater the knowledge about all these negative emotions so I could see why one would choose such a path. Self is always exploring itself in an attempt to find out what it is capable of so it will continue to cause things in order to see what comes out of these events. If there are too many possibilities then it will create all the possible realities to explore each one hence the idea of many possible worlds, realities etc. And it's doing it through us or in other words, we are the creators or the Source's extended hands. That's why it's important to rise to the occasions/challenges otherwise avenues will remain unexplored and there will be no further clarity.

Quantum Physics already stated that we live in a realm of possibilities (so this can't be questioned) but possibilities can only give birth to more possibilities and never actuality or an actual event, and that's when the observer effect comes into place. Remember that nothing changes (not to our knowledge yet) until an observer looks at it, so the fact that we live in an actual world makes you aware that there might be something more in place here - divine or not.

Also, the sub-conscious mind apparently makes the decision one-third of a second before we become consciously aware of it. So it's probably safe to assume that most of our decisions are already made even before we become aware of it. There's also such a thing called Higher Self (to each of us) who's in charge of our journey on earth (and perhaps everywhere else as well) and knows better but I know that we are also allowed to take detour (say part of free will) but the destination remains the same, unless we decide to end or terminate the contract abruptly by committing suicide etc. (also part of free will but still, you are not off the wheel) if the experience becomes too much or let's say, when we take too much on our plate.

And yes, it does bring greater clarity.

P.S. I might have not answered your post quite accurately - or at all - but these are the thoughts I had after reading your post.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Free will is real. You just used it to create this thread. You could choose not to create this thread but you chose to create it with your own will. No one forced you to do it. God gave free will to His creatures not only human beings but also
angels. Yes, angels have free will. God created angels before creating earth and human beings. How did angels use their free will ? The two third of angels chose to follow God's order but the other one third chose to rebel against God and to follow Satan. That was their choice. Disobey is choice of free will. What happened to the one third of angels who disobeyed God?. They became fallen angels, demons. The most important thing we should remember from that even is one thing: God didn't give them forgiveness. God didn't give them a redeemer or Savior to save them from sin.

Why did God save humans from our sins through Christ Jesus our Savior? The answer is simple but requires understanding of the law of spiritual world. All angels are spiritual beings, and they don't have a chance to repent. But humans are different. We are not only spiritual beings but also physical beings. Many people understand that they are physical beings but hard to understand about the area of spiritual being or they don't believe they are actually spiritual beings. Because we have physical body (flesh) God gave us the second chance to repent our sins. Through His son Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross, God gave all humans forgiveness of sins. That only applies to people who accept Jesus as their Savior. All others still remains in their sins because their unbelief. That is their choice of free will. But the consequence is so severe. The one who accepted Jesus as Savior will go Heaven and the other who chose to reject God's mercy and grace will ended up in Hell forever. Will not God give the second chance for the people who ended up in Hell if they repent in the Hell? The answer is NO. There will be no second chance for whomever ended up in Hell because they are no longer physical beings but become
spiritual beings. Every souls in Hell regret and repent, and ask for forgiveness but Jesus said to them " It is too late"

It is your free will to choose eternal life or eternal torment. If you are wise you should know which option you must choose.

My creation of this thread may or may not be an act of free will. Can't say for sure. Your claiming that it is, does not make it so. The "causes" of this act/effect are many. Immeasurable = way too many to count. The act of starting this thread and composing this very response could just be a natural & inevitable outcome of The Big Bang that set all this into motion.

Perhaps it was your God that created that Bang. But now he/she is resting — cuz it's still the 7th day. Perhaps God set in all in motion, knows the outcome (despite free will???), and it's all just playing out.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Free will is real. You just used it to create this thread. You could choose not to create this thread but you chose to create it with your own will. No one forced you to do it. God gave free will to His creatures not only human beings but also angels...

Your input/opinion on the thread topic is certainly welcome here. (Unless, of course, you have already been banned from this thread by the moderators). But, as requested in the OP, off-topic religious sermonizing or proselytizing will not be tolerated. This is why your follow-up post was deleted by the mods. I had made this request to ensure that this thread is not derailed yet again (and locked as the recent alien thread was).

Be forewarned. Post #134 should have been flagged as well but have decided to let it slide for now. Your post starts off fine, as seen above, but then goes off on a tangent before quickly decaying into some hardcore evangelizing. Attempting to derail threads by trying to impose your religious beliefs is not cool. This is the reason why most of your posts in this thread and the alien thread were eliminated. Please take this feedback as a friendly heads-up.

Be advised that nearly 70% of the world’s population is not Christian (Catholic, Protestant, etc). Your attempts to convert us all to save our souls, as you see fit, might be regarded as offensive to those who hold other beliefs.
 
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Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Your input/opinion on the thread topic is certainly welcome here. (Unless, of course, you have already been banned from this thread by the moderators). But, as requested in the OP, off-topic religious sermonizing or proselytizing will not be tolerated. This is why your follow-up post was deleted by the mods. I had made this request to ensure that this thread is not derailed yet again (and locked as the recent alien thread was).

Be forewarned. Post #134 should have been flagged as well but have decided to let it slide for now. Your post starts off fine, as seen above, but then goes off on a tangent before quickly decaying into some hardcore evangelizing. Attempting to derails threads by trying to impose your religious beliefs is not cool. This is the reason why most of your posts in this thread and the alien thread were eliminated. Please take this feedback as a friendly heads-up.

Be advised that nearly 70% of the world’s population is not Christian (Catholic, Protestant, etc). Your attempts to convert us all to save our souls, as you see fit, might be regarded as offensive to those who hold other beliefs.
I would say this kind of response to magics post is the smoking gun of this thread!! No free will at all. You HAD to write that.
 

Zara

G.O.A.T.
I say free will is as real as time. It is apparent and yet, it is an illusion. And somehow relative.

But what if we have the power to change any obstacles we face or have the power to find ways to bypass these conditions or even rewrite the Universal laws? Do we not create our own reality after all? Look how far we have come already - from a molecule to atom to a full fledged being. We have taken quantum leaps from time to time - what else are we capable of? Possibilities are endless.
 

Northern

Hall of Fame
Free will is real. You just used it to create this thread. You could choose not to create this thread but you chose to create it with your own will. No one forced you to do it. God gave free will to His creatures not only human beings but also
angels. Yes, angels have free will. God created angels before creating earth and human beings. How did angels use their free will ? The two third of angels chose to follow God's order but the other one third chose to rebel against God and to follow Satan. That was their choice. Disobey is choice of free will. What happened to the one third of angels who disobeyed God?. They became fallen angels, demons. The most important thing we should remember from that even is one thing: God didn't give them forgiveness. God didn't give them a redeemer or Savior to save them from sin.

Why did God save humans from our sins through Christ Jesus our Savior? The answer is simple but requires understanding of the law of spiritual world. All angels are spiritual beings, and they don't have a chance to repent. But humans are different. We are not only spiritual beings but also physical beings. Many people understand that they are physical beings but hard to understand about the area of spiritual being or they don't believe they are actually spiritual beings. Because we have physical body (flesh) God gave us the second chance to repent our sins. Through His son Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross, God gave all humans forgiveness of sins. That only applies to people who accept Jesus as their Savior. All others still remains in their sins because their unbelief. That is their choice of free will. But the consequence is so severe. The one who accepted Jesus as Savior will go Heaven and the other who chose to reject God's mercy and grace will ended up in Hell forever. Will not God give the second chance for the people who ended up in Hell if they repent in the Hell? The answer is NO. There will be no second chance for whomever ended up in Hell because they are no longer physical beings but become
spiritual beings. Every souls in Hell regret and repent, and ask for forgiveness but Jesus said to them " It is too late"

It is your free will to choose eternal life or eternal torment. If you are wise you should know which option you must choose.
Oh, geez. Is this thread going the way of the Alien one? You know, there is such thing as turning people away from God too. One thing is to bring something up, the other is to force feed it down people's throats.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Oh, geez. Is this thread going the way of the Alien one? You know, there is such thing as turning people away from God too. One thing is to bring something up, the other is to force feed it down people's throats.

We may be safe from the religious ranting & force feeding of @Magic of tennis for now. His 2nd rant post was deleted from this thread (as well as 5 of his 6 rants from Alien). The mods may have banned him from posting on this thread any further.
 

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
Depends what you define free will as.

I think free will isn't the philosophical or scientific concept people make it out to be to begin with. Hence trying to find/justify it scientifically or ontologically is bound to fail - it is no such thing. It's more of a sensation within ourselves and something we project unto others. Considering this as the basis for ethics - which I do, for it is what underlies our ethical sentiments to a large degree I believe - means that all the volumes that have been written about the ontology of free will and what that means for ethics are useless.

But yeah, there's my "90% of philosophy is a waste of money and time" take of the day :)
 
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