Mainad
Bionic Poster
Yeah like Massu, Mecir and Rosset, all Slams winners
All fine players along with Agassi, Nadal, Murray, Graf and the Williams sisters. Federer and Wawrinka too (in doubles).
Greater grass court player, Murray or Roddick ?
- Thread starter Centre Court
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All fine players along with Agassi, Nadal, Murray, Graf and the Williams sisters. Federer and Wawrinka too (in doubles).
deacsyoga
Banned
Murray was still ranked much lower though and further from his prime than even a slumping Roddick. Roddick made the U.S Open final later that year. The 2006 result was as big or bigger an upset than the 2009 result.
deacsyoga
Banned
I do agree there but even then only the 2003, 2004, 2009 Roddick would win. Even 2003 is arguable. I dont believe the passive playing 2005 one would, despite making the final, and despite how bad Djokovic was (for his standards) in the 2013 final. While Murray would win those hypothetical finals almost every year he played Wimbledon 2009 onwards apart from 2014 and 2016 basically, which gives him a higher odds of coming through even in that proposed hypothetical.
deacsyoga
Banned
Wasnt that in Dubai in I think 07 or 08? I believe that is one of the fastest courts still in existence on tour which would benefit Roddick, although still an impressive performance for sure. There should be slam surfaces that fast, but in reality there isnt at this point.
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Deleted member 307496
Guest
Disagree.
Roddick wasn't expected to do much at Wimbledon given his results from previous years where he lost to players like Gasquet, etc.
Murray in 2009 was ranked higher and in arguably better form going into the tournament.
Roddick's form during the US Open swing was completely different than at Wimbledon. No comparison really. He even crushed Murray - and I believe that would be the result at Wimbledon too if he came in with other years' forms.
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Deleted member 307496
Guest
No final version of Roddick is losing to Raonic, no matter how bad he's playing.
Raonic is like the Todd Martin of this era. Actually I think Todd may be slightly better given he could volley very well.
Vanilla Slice
Professional
Peak Grass Level:
Roddick > Murray
Greater and Better Overall Grass Player:
Murray > Roddick
Roddick > Murray
Greater and Better Overall Grass Player:
Murray > Roddick
masao
New User
One of the biggest myths is that Roddick's game was "perfectly suited to grass".
His return wouldn't have stood up against competent serve and volley players on the 70/30 Rye/Creeping Red Fescue.
His volley was also suspect but only accentuated by his poor, poor approach shots.
In the 09 match Roddick was superb, Murray was still not peak. It was an extremely tight match. The game could have gone either way.
unlike the absolute lesson Murray dished out at Wimbledon's in 2006 and Queen's in 2011.
His return wouldn't have stood up against competent serve and volley players on the 70/30 Rye/Creeping Red Fescue.
His volley was also suspect but only accentuated by his poor, poor approach shots.
In the 09 match Roddick was superb, Murray was still not peak. It was an extremely tight match. The game could have gone either way.
unlike the absolute lesson Murray dished out at Wimbledon's in 2006 and Queen's in 2011.
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Deleted member 307496
Guest
Roddick was ranked like 10 places below Murray in 2009 at 2011 Queens. LMAO.
Guess Hewitt dished out a 'lesson' to Pete at Queens in 01.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Do you think Roddick's the greater grass court player Saby?
Matthew Lee
Professional
IMO:
Average Roddick < Average Murray
But
Prime Roddick > Prime Murray
Average Roddick < Average Murray
But
Prime Roddick > Prime Murray
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Deleted member 688153
Guest
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Deleted member 688153
Guest
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titoelcolombiano
Legend
Muzz has the results so it will have to go to him.
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Deleted member 307496
Guest
Greater? Nah. Better? Maybe, but it is a debateable subject..
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Deleted member 307496
Guest
2013 Wimbledon (final) Djokovic was a joke. Absolutely drained from his Del Potro SF - which is the same story with Fed at the LOLympics.
Murray got through a "tight" 2 set match against Djokovic - much tighter than Roddick's match against Murray. If Djokovic played decent tennis (for his standards) he wouldn't ever lose to Murray on any surface except quick HC.
Djokovic got pushed to 3 tight sets by an ancient hospital bound Hewitt and people are acting like Murray just beating this version of Djokovic and a flat Federer is impressive. LOL.
Don't know if Roddick could do it but wouldn't put it past other top players of his era.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Matthew Lee
Professional
In some ways, yes.In other words, you think Roddick is just better than Murray?
Matthew Lee
Professional
...but I just wrote that Murray was better than Roddick on average.
Just thought that prime Roddick beat prime Murray...
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Oops sorry, just spotted that you had the sign for average pointing the other way.
Well, they are even in their Wimbledon matchup at 1-1. Pre-prime Murray beat prime Roddick in 2006.
Matthew Lee
Professional
Oh...didn't realize that. I just thought to 2009 when Roddick beat Murray in SF's. I'm kinda young and dumb :/Oops sorry, just spotted that you had the sign for average pointing the other way.
Well, they are even in their Wimbledon matchup at 1-1. Pre-prime Murray beat prime Roddick in 2006.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Dope Reign
Banned
Beating Federer on grass is certainly not as impressive as losing-to-him.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Hahaha, some of the things I read on this forum really do tickle me. Some of you guys drive me up the wall at times but how could I be without you for too long?
R_Federer
Professional
Right, with Murray in his prime and Roddick out of his prime. Oh and Murray with the home court lol.
deacsyoga
Banned
LOL Wimbledon 2009 is the best tennis Roddick ever played at Wimbledon. Obviously not "out of his prime". What Murray's prime is exactly is debateable, but as I said he was better at Wimbledon in 2012, 2013, 2016, probaby 2010, 2011, and possiby 2015 than he was in 2009.
The overall head to head of Roddick and Murray is telling, most of those with Roddick in his prime and Murray a kid well out of his prime. Which Murray led almost from the start.
deacsyoga
Banned
I hate Raonic and I dont neccessarily consider him a better player than Todd Martin who was a very solid overall and reasonably powerful player, apart from his poor movement. However he does have more explosive power and a much bigger serve than Martin, so I wouldnt entirely agree he is just a Martin who cant volley well. I think his movement is even poorer than Raonic too. Martin is a much better returner. They are very similar but there are differences in both directions too.
Todd Martin took Agassi in his best year ever to 5 sets in a slam final btw. It is quite easy to imagine him beating Roddick, particularly the rather weak Roddick of the 2005 Wimbledon final, in a slam final.
FD3S
Hall of Fame
Murray's indisputably the greater grass player; he's got the majors and the gold medal to prove it. That can't be argued.
I'm tempted to agree with those that say that Roddick's highest level is better, however, mainly because I'm of the opinion that no matter the grass composition an elite attacker will usually win out over an elite defender, and peak Roddick's dedication to his high-octane, full force offense was truly something to see.
I'm tempted to agree with those that say that Roddick's highest level is better, however, mainly because I'm of the opinion that no matter the grass composition an elite attacker will usually win out over an elite defender, and peak Roddick's dedication to his high-octane, full force offense was truly something to see.
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Deleted member 307496
Guest
The 1999 USO was about as bad quality wise as this years edition with withdrawrals and injuries everywhere.
That's beside the point as I think Martin was better anyway, but Raonic has practically nothing but a serve. He isn't breaking Roddick and I think he could actually be broken by Roddick once in a set.
2005 Roddick was in my opinion better than Raonic in 2016. Raonic offered absolutely no resistance to a player much weaker than Federer, unless you want to argue Murray played as well as Federer did in 2005.
Roddick's forehand and serve would be enough to put Raonic away.
I mentioned Martin because he was pretty much all serve just like Raonic. I also bet if he played with the current tech he'd serve as big as Raonic.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Murray is the greater grass court player. That is already certain.
But we don't know if he would have done any better than Roddick under the circumstances Roddick was playing.
But we don't know if he would have done any better than Roddick under the circumstances Roddick was playing.
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Deleted member 307496
Guest
How was Murray better in 2010 or even 2011 than he was in 2009? Because he lost to Nadal?
He got thumped in 2010 and didn't do much better a year later.
In 2015 he got thumped again by an aging Federer.
How are those versions of Murray better than his '09 iteration? Because Roddick is a lesser player?
By the eye test he looks exactly the same, only in the years he won or made a push in the final did he actually look to be playing better.
deacsyoga
Banned
Those years arent as obvious as 2012, 2013, and 2016 which is why I stated them first, and with the specifics of probably or possibly for the others as there wasnt as much difference. The bottom line is it was the best ever Roddick at Wimbledon, with only 2004 even coming close, and not the best ever Murray at Wimbledon, so the "way out of prime old Roddick vs peak Murray" comment I was responding to was pretty comical.
Kind of funny you are saying that when Roddick other than 18 months of 2003-2004 he had a forehand, and parts of 06 and 09, is just a serve too. In fact overall Martin is a more complete player than both Roddick and Raonic, just without a weapon like the serve of either, or the forehand Roddick and/or Raonic sometimes has. Martin returns light years better than both, has a better backhand than both, volleys much better than both, but his movement is too much of a weakness and sometimes in tennis it is better to have a massive weapon like the Raonic/Roddick serve than an all around game.
Druss
Hall of Fame
Who is the greater grass court player, Murray or Roddick?
Good question.
Obviously Murray has achieved more, mostly by winning 2 Wimbledon titles, however it is not as clear-cut.
They both made 3 finals, and both lost their final(s) to none other than the grass GOAT.
Let us hypothetically swap Murray and Roddick at SW19:
2004 F Federer vs Murray - no version of Murray is going to win.
2005 F Federer vs Murray - any version of Murray will be crushed.
2009 F Federer vs Murray - near end of prime Roddick beat beginning of prime Murray. Absolute peak Murray will push this version of Fed but will ultimately lose in 4 or 5.
Murray = 0 Wimbledons
2012 F Federer vs Roddick - Peak Roddick will push Federer and take it to 4 or 5 sets but will eventually lose.
2013 F Djokovic vs Roddick - absolute peak Roddick will beat (drained from Delpo SF) version of Djokovic in 3 or 4 tight sets. Let's not forget A-Rod also match up well vs Djoker.
2016 F Raonic vs Roddick - Roddick will steamroll past Raocic who has a similar game, just much weaker in every aspect.
Roddick = 2 Wimbledon wins
So it's pretty equal if you asked me, however I will give this to Roddick (only just) because of their 2009 SF duel. Roddick came out on top and I believe had their peaks collided, we would have seen some great battles but Roddick would have had the slight edge.
killerboi2
Hall of Fame
Since this is still going on, let me raise another point. 21-3. A big part of Federer fans argument in favour of Roddick is him doing better against Federer at Wimbledon than Murray. Now I know this is just grass but he has beaten Fed 3 times in 24 tries. Man i'm still giving Murray (who has been pretty garbage against Fed himself to be fair) more of a chance against Fed than Roddick no matter how much sets he's won. His record is awful.
Any Murray fan will tell you that he was a better player in 2011-2013 than he was in 2009. You just need to watch him play to know that.
Any Murray fan will tell you that he was a better player in 2011-2013 than he was in 2009. You just need to watch him play to know that.
deacsyoga
Banned
That plus Murray is better against the field or the non marquee names like Federer than Roddick is. Roddick from 2003-2010 lost to someone other than Federer/Nadal/Djokovic (never even played Nadal or Djokovic at Wimbledon) 4 times out of 8, and all were players far weaker than those top guys, including baby teenaged Murray himself in 06 who was a nobody. Murray lost to someone other than Federer/Nadal/Djokovic only 1 time out of 8 from 2008-2015.
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Deleted member 307496
Guest
Martin still had a great serve. Doesn't seem as impressive as those today because he was using old tech.
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Deleted member 307496
Guest
Murray's beaten Federer one more time than Roddick in majors with about as many tries. Not exactly the greatest argument to use.
I'm not interested in what "Murray fans" think - already heard enough rubbish about Murray being as good as Becker.killerboi2 said:
Murray doesn't look any different in other years he lost in the SF. 2010 he looks pretty bad, 2011 he's decent and in 2015 he wasn't great either but his mentality showed more than his game. I'd personally rank 09 with those years, 2012 and the two years he won he was playing aggressive tennis.
If I didn't watch Murray those times (last time I even had hope for Murray against Federer or any top player in a major was 2015 Wimbledon) I wouldn't know just how passive he was playing. Was as bad as Roddick resigning to Federer every time.
Dope Reign
Banned
Yeah prime Roddick was impressive. The way he dispatched scrubs was a sight to see.
Why are you assuming Roddick would even make it to the final in the years Murray won?
Roddicks defeated opponents at Wimbledon in his 3 year prime lol from 03-05 had an accumulated slam resume of 18 quarterfinals, 7 semifinals, 2 finals and 1 win.
At wimbledon it's 6 quarterfinals, 2 semifinals.
Murray's opponents in 2013 had 17 quarterfinals, 12 semifinals, 4 finals, 6 wins. At Wimbledon it's 3 quarterfinals, 3 semifinals, 1 win.
In 2016 it's 18 quarterfinals, 11 semifinals, 2 finals. At Wimbledon it's 5 quarterfinals, 3 semifinals, 1 final.
I know you guys love to use success as an indicator for why people are actually bad, that's not a bend I can follow.
As for the 'eye test', that's an idea I think you guys should pursue. A quick google search will help you locate your nearest opticians. Personally, I'm not much of a fan of 'I feel it therefore it's true' approach.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
That's a bit harsh Saby. His forehand and volley are definitely above average.
