For All I know
New User
How can we all forget about Joe Walsh?
greatest ever guitar player?
- Thread starter Ross K
- Start date
For All I know
New User
Wes Montgomery
edmondsm
Legend
Wes is/was the man. Did you know that he was touring professionally 6 months after he picked up the guitar for the first time? Incredible.
Phil
Hall of Fame
As I said, his best days were in the 60's, so back then, when he started, his licks weren't yet tired. You're coming at it from a very technical perspective. It's both an advantage and a disadvantage to listen to music as a guitar player. You can catch the stuff that you mentioned, but the downside, is that, focusing so much on the technical aspect, you miss the big picture and what someone is trying to do. Anyway, to each his own.
edmondsm
Legend
No, you just don't have the vocabulary to respond. Guitar is what I do for a living and I've studied it very hard for a long time. What that gives me is a larger perspective and the ability to put Santana where he belongs on the spectrum of guitar players. Your right though, to each his own, and to me Santana's playing is uninspired and monotonous.
alwaysatnet
Semi-Pro
Your impressions of Jeff Beck then?
Phil
Hall of Fame
I half expected that response. Someone who throws around technical terms when discussing music in a non-technical discussion, may be covering for lack of appreciation for said music. There are PLENTY of "professional" guitar players who have praised Santana to the heavens-his technical ability and otherwise. Do they TOO not have your "larger perspective"? I submit that your perspective is more TECHNICAL, but by no means "larger". In fact, it may be narrower.
There's a way to listen to music and then there's a way to listen to music...one way is narrow, technical, professional, and another is not. Neither way is "incorrect"-to each his own, but only an arrogant and insecure little guy would claim that knowing how to play guitar somehow gives him the last word on the subject. It doesn't. Your opinion is not new and has some merit, but neither is it the only opinion on CS. Again, MANY, MANY hotshot guitarists whom, I'm willing to bet, have knowledge of the instrument that would SHAME you, have stated an opposite opinion.
I'm a drummer, by the way, so I'm not totally ignorant of music, as you imply.
edmondsm
Legend
Now why didn't you say that before when you were arguing that Santana, having wanked around for the last 30 years (which you admitted), belonged in a discussion about the greatest guitarist of all time. I'm aloud to have a strong opinion about something that I'm very passionate about, and you coxed that out of me by questioning my opinions. You asked me specifically to give my opinion on Santana's playing and I did, in the most logical manner that I could.
Sorry that you got so offended by my opinion.
Phil
Hall of Fame
Santana isn't the only one trading on his reputation. Eric Clapton, anyone? Yeah, he can still play, but what, really, has he done to even approach his work with the Yardbirds and the Bluesbreakers, etc.?
I don't have a problem with strong opinions-I'm wont to have them myself, but if someone's gonna go and wave around their creditials like a flag in an attempt to kill off all further debate (and when said technical credentials are actually not all that relevant to the discussion), then I'll say something.
Your opinion certainly doesn't offend me. They way in which you STATED your opinion-in supremely arrogant manner-DID get me to thinking, though...hence, what I wrote above.
Excert from 'Talk Tennis Forum Blues' by Blind Lemon Ross...
I got the blues so bad - fellas on the forum talkin' wankers an' rantin'
(I say) I got the blues so bad - fellas on the forum talkin' wankers an' rantin'
Feel guilty cos I introduced the thread
(Oo, oo) How'd we get to talkin' arrogance and wankin'...
HEY, LET"S ALL START A BAND?!
I got the blues so bad - fellas on the forum talkin' wankers an' rantin'
(I say) I got the blues so bad - fellas on the forum talkin' wankers an' rantin'
Feel guilty cos I introduced the thread
(Oo, oo) How'd we get to talkin' arrogance and wankin'...
HEY, LET"S ALL START A BAND?!
bluegrasser
Hall of Fame
Dude you need to come down off your ' high horse' - what the he%l is wrong with playing in the ' Dorian mode', I suppose the Allman bros playing in the mix mode doesn't meet you approval either.
Santana was an innovator, like him or not, and nobody played the guitar like him, he created his own music using that scale. Let me ask you a question - do you think BB King sucks, because he plays in a little five note box ( major penatonic scale) almost exclusively.
I do agree with you that TE rocks, I saw him live and met him after the show, a great player and guy to boot.
bluegrasser
Hall of Fame
Remember that's *Your* perspective, it's all relative, I also play guitar ( not for a living ) and have played in rock/blues & bluegrass bands< I'm no virtuoso, but as I've grown older I realize it's not about how fast , or how much theory one knows, it's about putting your soul into it and conveying it to the audience.
bluegrasser
Hall of Fame
Sorry to go on ranting Edmondsm, but just to give you an idea what my taste in guitar playing is:
Classical - Christopher Parkening, John Williams, Elliot Fisk (s?)
Blues - BB, Albert Collins, Albert King, Tab Benoit, Robben Ford
Rock - Eric Johnson ( his stuff is getting a little old like Santana)
" Ritchie Blackmore, Steve Howe, Pete Townsend, Jimmy Page, others
Acoustic - Tommy Emman..(s?), Tony Rice - others.
Classical - Christopher Parkening, John Williams, Elliot Fisk (s?)
Blues - BB, Albert Collins, Albert King, Tab Benoit, Robben Ford
Rock - Eric Johnson ( his stuff is getting a little old like Santana)
" Ritchie Blackmore, Steve Howe, Pete Townsend, Jimmy Page, others
Acoustic - Tommy Emman..(s?), Tony Rice - others.
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
Village Voice Musician Personals: Retards Wanted
Ok Ross K; let's do it. I've got an idea and I think this is a NO-BRAINER:
let's start a Carlos Santana tribute band!
I myself play "piano/keys/vox" (studio) in addition to guitar, bass and drums, but for now, I'll be a *cough* team player and simply be the *cough* 'lead singer' in the band while all you 'ax-sters' sort out your respective "niches" within the band context. (wink!)
Now, as for the band's name:
The name I'm thinking about might be a tad unwieldy for now, but we can always pare it down once we get the "other members" on board. A "stripped-down" catchy name would probably be better than hearing us introduced at our first gig as:
"Good evening, boys and girls..........this band has come all the way down from an acid trip just to play for you. Would you please welcome: The Carlos ' Noodling Left Hand--Right Hand Flat Pickin' Like He's Playing a Mandolin 'Cause His Left Hand Ain't Nearly As Fast As He'd Like You to Believe' Santana Tribute Band; the one, the only: [size=+1]Latin 'Loops'[/size]~!"
Ok, we have you, edmondsm and bluegrasser on guitars (3 guitars?: what the hell, we can do Thin Lizzy-esque "duo leads" if we want). Then we'll go to Nieman-Marcus or Saks and get one of their store-front maniquins to play bass. Now for the fun part: at our first rehersal, we'll introduce edmondsm "Mr. Whittle-on-the-electric-Fiddle" to our drummer, Mr. "Parra-diddle" himself: PHIL~!
Oh, the chemistry! Talk about *cough* "Soul Sacrifice" .......... (smirk)
Ok Ross K; let's do it. I've got an idea and I think this is a NO-BRAINER:
let's start a Carlos Santana tribute band!
I myself play "piano/keys/vox" (studio) in addition to guitar, bass and drums, but for now, I'll be a *cough* team player and simply be the *cough* 'lead singer' in the band while all you 'ax-sters' sort out your respective "niches" within the band context. (wink!)
Now, as for the band's name:
The name I'm thinking about might be a tad unwieldy for now, but we can always pare it down once we get the "other members" on board. A "stripped-down" catchy name would probably be better than hearing us introduced at our first gig as:
"Good evening, boys and girls..........this band has come all the way down from an acid trip just to play for you. Would you please welcome: The Carlos ' Noodling Left Hand--Right Hand Flat Pickin' Like He's Playing a Mandolin 'Cause His Left Hand Ain't Nearly As Fast As He'd Like You to Believe' Santana Tribute Band; the one, the only: [size=+1]Latin 'Loops'[/size]~!"
Ok, we have you, edmondsm and bluegrasser on guitars (3 guitars?: what the hell, we can do Thin Lizzy-esque "duo leads" if we want). Then we'll go to Nieman-Marcus or Saks and get one of their store-front maniquins to play bass. Now for the fun part: at our first rehersal, we'll introduce edmondsm "Mr. Whittle-on-the-electric-Fiddle" to our drummer, Mr. "Parra-diddle" himself: PHIL~!
Oh, the chemistry! Talk about *cough* "Soul Sacrifice" .......... (smirk)
alwaysatnet
Semi-Pro
Doesn't play well with others...Carlos,I mean.
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bluegrasser
Hall of Fame
I agree, I saw a video ( youtube) of him jamming with George Benson and it was terrible to say the least, his tone was bad too.
DedansPenthouse,
That's the best laugh I've had in a while - that's for daaamn sure!
In fact, musical pardner, it's enough to make a man forget about his blues altogether, hang up his geeetar, and become... ahem... reasonably contented - You see, with those two on board, I'm not sure I really want to be at that first rehearsal (never mind the first show!) In other words, I have to say it straight amigo - COUNT ME OUT! Henceforth I'm turning to religion and the bible. I'm giving up my ramblin' ways. I renounce the bottle and loose woman. From now on my only musical involvement shall take place within the confines of my church... YEEES!... I'M GONNA BECOME A PREACHER MAN!... but, with a certain regard and affection for this recent incident, I think I'll go by the name of Preacher Santana...
May the light continue to shine on you and your flock (and I refereth not to thy unholy acid trip),
Preacher Santana - The Church of Latin Loops
That's the best laugh I've had in a while - that's for daaamn sure!
In fact, musical pardner, it's enough to make a man forget about his blues altogether, hang up his geeetar, and become... ahem... reasonably contented - You see, with those two on board, I'm not sure I really want to be at that first rehearsal (never mind the first show!) In other words, I have to say it straight amigo - COUNT ME OUT! Henceforth I'm turning to religion and the bible. I'm giving up my ramblin' ways. I renounce the bottle and loose woman. From now on my only musical involvement shall take place within the confines of my church... YEEES!... I'M GONNA BECOME A PREACHER MAN!... but, with a certain regard and affection for this recent incident, I think I'll go by the name of Preacher Santana...
May the light continue to shine on you and your flock (and I refereth not to thy unholy acid trip),
Preacher Santana - The Church of Latin Loops
For All I know
New User
Actually, the blues scale has more than 5 notes. Yeah, they are pretty similar, as the penetonic lies with the blues scale.
For All I know
New User
Yeah, I agree.... it's all about the "presence" that the player exhibits. Each great guitarists has their own way of broadcasting this aurora. Some players fall into a trance-like state and that emotion ends up being absorbed by the audience. Others greats just play out of their minds, and they don't even need strong facial expressions in order to get the people "into it"; Eric Johnson is an example of one such guitarist.
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
~Axus Mortem~
Q: How does a lead guitarist greet another lead guitarist
A: "Hi......I'm better than you."
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....damn group broke up before our first gold/platinum disc. :sad:
The hell with you ax-shredders then. I'm joinin' a rap group. And to hell with Santana, where's the Senator?
Senator Jay Bullworth.....calling Senator Jay BULLworth......
Q: How does a lead guitarist greet another lead guitarist
A: "Hi......I'm better than you."
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say wha?
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No boozin' and womanizin'? You can't do that and be in our band!!!Ross K said:
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Well, you sure as 'hell' ain't preachin' to the choir here "Rev.", my God-fearin' sensibilites notwithstanding.Ross K said:
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....damn group broke up before our first gold/platinum disc. :sad:
The hell with you ax-shredders then. I'm joinin' a rap group. And to hell with Santana, where's the Senator?
Senator Jay Bullworth.....calling Senator Jay BULLworth......
Brettolius
Professional
Actually, the blues scale has more than 5 notes. Yeah, they are pretty similar, as the penetonic lies with the blues scale.
Well pentatonic actually means "five tones". Penta= five. And he said major pentatonic scale. Not blues scale.
Hmm, I think my tastes run more toward Kevin Shields and J. Mascis Jr. Or, at least, if I played guitar, I would want to sound like them.
Problem with "Greatest Musician lists" is that you inevitably get into arguments between "high-brow" and "populist" forms of music.
I could say Robert Plant or Jeff Buckley are great singers, but then the opera guy will say their vocal technique is wrong, and the jazz guy will say their singing isn't creative. Rock guy calls his friends "snobs" or "elitists." His friends counterargue "well, don't you look down on hip-hop artists who sample their music, or bubblegum artists who don't write their own songs?" Same difference.
Edmondsm -- how do you feel about Allan Holdworth? A guitarist friend of mine is obsessed with his music/theory.
Problem with "Greatest Musician lists" is that you inevitably get into arguments between "high-brow" and "populist" forms of music.
I could say Robert Plant or Jeff Buckley are great singers, but then the opera guy will say their vocal technique is wrong, and the jazz guy will say their singing isn't creative. Rock guy calls his friends "snobs" or "elitists." His friends counterargue "well, don't you look down on hip-hop artists who sample their music, or bubblegum artists who don't write their own songs?" Same difference.
Edmondsm -- how do you feel about Allan Holdworth? A guitarist friend of mine is obsessed with his music/theory.
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For All I know
New User
I know what he said... it's just that BB tends to play in the "Blues" scale, very often, and I was under the impression that Bluegrasser was mistaken, hence I brought all of this up.
For All I know
New User
You know what? .... I think you're abosolutely right with.
edmondsm
Legend
Listen guys, I'm sorry if I got out of line trying to explain my point of view. Santana was an innovator. Great, I can except that. It is my firm opinion that the truly great artists never stop evolving, growing. I just don't see Santana doing that and that is why I refuted the post that he was the "greatest guitar player ever."
As far as being on my high-horse, I was just defending myself against Phil's all out assault on my opinion. I resorted to technical terms because it seemed like that was the most efficient way of doing that. I said myself that there was nothing wrong with using the same scale or mode to do your improvising. B.B. King: fabulous musician. Hendrix does this to, and even "virtuosos" like Joe Pass have stuff that they fall back on constantly.
Santana's playing just does nothing for me and I'll leave it at that.
As far as being on my high-horse, I was just defending myself against Phil's all out assault on my opinion. I resorted to technical terms because it seemed like that was the most efficient way of doing that. I said myself that there was nothing wrong with using the same scale or mode to do your improvising. B.B. King: fabulous musician. Hendrix does this to, and even "virtuosos" like Joe Pass have stuff that they fall back on constantly.
Santana's playing just does nothing for me and I'll leave it at that.
edmondsm
Legend
I had heard of him but never really checked out his music. After having visited his website just now I will say that I'm definatly going to get a hold of an album of his. The audio samples on the site sounded great. I love anybody who can do jazz-rock fusion tastefully. It seems like its a very slippery slope toward smooth-jazz.
bluegrasser
Hall of Fame
I know what he said... it's just that BB tends to play in the "Blues" scale, very often, and I was under the impression that Bluegrasser was mistaken, hence I brought all of this up.
I'm not mistaken - BB does use the major penatonic scale quite often.
bluegrasser
Hall of Fame
No problemo, as far as Santana goes I agree with you to a point, but no way is he a crappy guitarist.
For All I know
New User
I know what you're saying.
If you were talking to me out on the streets, as a fellow musician, about how you feel that Santana is boring (however you orginally described him to be), talking about him using the same scale/getting the same old trademark sound etc., then I'd totally understand. We'd be laughing it up, all with a mutual understanding of one another's point and intentions.
On the otherhand, when you take what would be said to you're peers, and then have it posted in writing in public for a general audience to read, then it would be easy to see how other's would take your words precisely, "literally".
Yeah, on the street, to an other musician, you could say:
"He's boring, always playing in that Dorian scale."
and then that fellow musician could understand that you are just overexaggerating a bit in order to get your point across (without having to explain your reasons in essay form). He would understand that:
"Sure, you are saying that Santana is boring cause he always uses that same scale, but I surely understand that you cannot be thinking about this for every other guitarist, that anyone else who uses the same scale or set of scales is just as boring."
Nothing to sweat, Edmond.
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AgassiFan12
New User
Robert Randolph deserves some attention too. An amazing lap slide guitarist. Another contemporary artist that is a great guitarist of this generation is Ben Harper.
Santana was a great innovator,he wasn't technically great but he improved until his chops in the early 80's were pretty slick.He used the wah pedal as a tone control which emphasised the mid range and gave him a fat penetrating tone but I dont hear much else apart from head hands and heart plus a mesa boogie with cranked- hot valves.
He had the one thing no amount of so called 'pro guitarists' will ever have and thats a unique sound,you know its him because he plays or played with convictionand he had something to say be it with limited technique,but hey this is rock /blues based music with a twist not harmonically complex be bop!!
When I saw him play he soloed with his back to the crowd all night ??
He's lost it now but blues for salvador was ok a few years back.
Think hes probably not Mr nice guy peace freak ageing hippy he makes out to be and I know Neil Schon wasnt happy as 15 year old in the band.
Oh hes a BIG tennis freak also.
Oh by the way ALL rock guitarists peak earlyish due to technical limitations.
He had the one thing no amount of so called 'pro guitarists' will ever have and thats a unique sound,you know its him because he plays or played with convictionand he had something to say be it with limited technique,but hey this is rock /blues based music with a twist not harmonically complex be bop!!
When I saw him play he soloed with his back to the crowd all night ??
He's lost it now but blues for salvador was ok a few years back.
Think hes probably not Mr nice guy peace freak ageing hippy he makes out to be and I know Neil Schon wasnt happy as 15 year old in the band.
Oh hes a BIG tennis freak also.
Oh by the way ALL rock guitarists peak earlyish due to technical limitations.
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edmondsm
Legend
I remember a player at the AO a couple of years ago complaining about the noise that Pat Cash's band was generating in a near by park.
For All I know
New User
Yeah, Mac does play a bit of guitar. He seems to describe himself as a hack though, being a bit humble about it.
edmondsm
Legend
Miles Davis said that Jimi was one of the most purely talented musicians he'd ever come across.
edmondsm
Legend
What do you guys think of Stanley Jordan? You have to see a video of him to really appreciate what he does. He plays with a guitar flat on his lap and uses the most elaborate right-hand tapping technique I've ever seen. Blow's Van Halen right out of the water.
I saw him live one time and as amazing as it was alot of his original music is kind of cheesy. Kind of like Yanni meets the 12 fingered man. Any thoughts?
I saw him live one time and as amazing as it was alot of his original music is kind of cheesy. Kind of like Yanni meets the 12 fingered man. Any thoughts?
Phil
Hall of Fame
First off, I NEVER said Santana was the "greatest guitar player ever"...if you read near the beginning of this thread, he's on my list, but I'd put him somewhere around 8 or 9-on MY list. Secondly, I didn't make an "all out attack" on your opinion...I just said your opinion had nothing to do with music (you were going on about marketing and song writing). Once you pulled out the "I'm a pro and you're ignorant about music...only I know", then I questioned that approach.
As Bluegrasser said, get off your high horse. If your "musical taste" boils down to scales, tremolo bars and tone, than you don't truely KNOW music...as Bluegrasser said, again, it's all about feeling. If technique is the ONLY criterium for great musicians, than Kenny G. would probably be right up there with Coltrane as a jazz musician. I don't care if you think CS was a "crappy guitarist"-most people wouldn't say so, but that's your opinion. Only, next time, don't come off as an arrogant little shiate about it. Oh, btw, I was a "professional" musician too...I got paid for playing parties and bar gigs, years ago. What I'm saying is, "professionals" are a dime a dozen...
edmondsm
Legend
Wow, I got over this a while ago but appearently you needed another jab so, since I'm a big "last-word" freak like you said, I'll get right to it.
My orginal post about Santana had nothing to do with you. I was responding to someone else's comment that brought up Santano only, so if YOU actually read the whole thread you'll see how this all began.
Secondly, you did attack my opinion, actually getting personal before me, refering to me as a purist and then you went on to say that because I am well versed in the technical aspects of music I "lack the larger perspective". Which is a proposturous comment because it flies in the face of what higher education is all about: gaining perspective.
Admittedly I was offended and got personal with you for which I apologize.
"If technique is the ONLY criterium for great musicians, than Kenny G. would probably be right up there with Coltrane as a jazz musician." I just have to point out what an obsurd statement that is. Coltrane was a master technician, maybe the greatest ever on that instrument. Kenny G dropped out of music school because he couldn't make the jazz band.
If it is all about feeling like you said, is James Brown the greatest musician of all time?
Put your fangs away Phil.
Phil
Hall of Fame
I don't think calling someone a "purist" qualifies as a personal insult. If it does, you're the first to claim it.
James Brown, as far as I know, didn't actually play an instrument...yet he's right up there as one of the greatest modern innovator, band leader, vocal stylist and MUSICIANS of all time...so yes..."feeling" is a big part of that. Without James Brown, there is no Parliament, no Sly & the Family Stone, no "funk" as we know it. Rap? Take your pick...the list goes on. His band/his leadership was also an incredible breeding ground for musicians who went on to become innovators in their own right.
I think you do lack the "larger perspective" that you claim to have, but that's just my opinion...education is supposed to continue after formal, higher education ends...I know a lot of people with fine educations who simply haven't been there and done that. So you'd do well to go back to the woodshed. And, maybe work on that think skin of yours...
edmondsm
Legend
Yeah, calling an artist a purist is an insult, at least to me it is because I'm not one.
You didn't get my tongue and cheek with the James Brown thing. It's all about the feeling, "I've got the feeling." As in the song. Thanks anyway for your breakdown of James Brown's influence on music. I'll make sure to print it in the latest issue of DUH! the magazine.
I'm not going to give up on this perspective thing, given the fact that I've played music from ever century going back to 1500 and you think a professional musician is somebody who played in bars and house parties for free-booze and tips.
Phil
Hall of Fame
Purist, Purist!
Well, excuse me, Mr. Pretensious Renaissance Jammaster Flash...okay, so I missed the James Brown sarcasm...I don't USUALLY miss those sort of things, but I'm dealing here with a technocrat/cretin-so I didn't expect such nuance. Basically an engineer, so it was lost on me. But I've subscribed to DUH! magazine for years, and I've seen your name cited in many an issue. Ha ha...I slay myself...sometimes.
And for your information, I was PAID for playing in bars (PLUS I got free booze). See, there's that arrogant, pedantic tone again...some of the greatest bands I've ever seen live (and not mine, for godsakes) were in bars...sometimes not so great bars. You probably wouldn't appreciate that as I'm sure these bands that I saw, were fixated on playing doric scales and using too many pedals. Yeah, that's it.
