In/Out Device

[Gut4Tennis]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...200-ai-will-end-tennis-club-screaming-matches

Visit just about any tennis club on a Saturday, and you’re likely to witness otherwise sensible adults losing their minds over line calls. Players suffer complete meltdowns as they hurl insults. Parents morph into brooding teenagers. Friends become enemies. Postmatch beers can undo some of the damage, but the shame and resentment linger for days.

More civilized times may lie ahead. French inventor Grégoire Gentil has designed a $200 GoPro-size device that can be fastened to any net post and detect whether balls are in or out with surprising accuracy. It’s called, reasonably enough, the In/Out. “I was born in Paris and raised on clay,” Gentil says. On clay, the ball leaves a mark, and he recalls many arguments over a blemish on the court. “It was the starting point of this, I would say.”

Gentil, 44, now lives in Palo Alto and built the In/Out in his living room lab. The device monitors both sides of a tennis court using a pair of cameras similar to those found in smartphones. After attaching the In/Out to the net with a plastic strap, a player pushes a button on its screen, and it scans the court to find the lines using open-source artificial intelligence software. AI also helps the device track the ball’s flight, pace, and spin. “This would not have been possible five years ago,” Gentil says.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

20mm (.78in) margin for error, that's not bad... definitely will be buying this when it comes out.

 

[Gut4Tennis]

this is YUUUUGE

 

[Booger]

Sounds too good to be true, given that Sony and co can't even make a reliable racquet sensor.

 

[esgee48]

Will depend on $$ and what court conditions give the best results. I imagine a bright sunny day, newish court, clean lines will yield the best results. Dirty lines, gray skies, shadows? I am not so sure what will happen. I am a little concerned the unit is exposed on top of the net post. I can imagine an errant ball destroying the unit. Thinking it needs a cage and some cushioning material.

 

[WisconsinPlayer]

Thats amazing if it works as well as its supposed to! So you just strap one of those on each sides and it works its magic?

 

[esgee48]

If the lines are scanned and stored in memory, then it only needs to track where the ball lands. If the ball lands anywhere where it has to intersect the lines, then it is in. The margin of error is pretty low. I think it would function better located a little higher. Ain't technology wonderful?

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Will depend on $$ and what court conditions give the best results. I imagine a bright sunny day, newish court, clean lines will yield the best results. Dirty lines, gray skies, shadows? I am not so sure what will happen. I am a little concerned the unit is exposed on top of the net post. I can imagine an errant ball destroying the unit. Thinking it needs a cage and some cushioning material.

if the idea catches on, perhaps we can sell an addon accessory

 

[SanJoseState1975]

Where can you buy this ?

 

[jm1980]

Where can you buy this ?

You can't, it's not out. They say it's coming out in the "summer."

Like other similar projects... I'll believe it when I see it

 

[mikeler]

I've been playing the last 2 months about once per week at the new 100 court USTA National Campus where they have a number of "smart" courts with Playsight technology (4 cameras/sensors) in each corner. They are still working out the glitches but we only had 2 errant calls out of 800 plus shots. The costs will come down with time and the accuracy will increase.

 

[eelhc]

I put a deposit down. To me the HD video and stat tracking is more interesting and worth the $200. The line calling is a bonus.

For the line calling, it doesn't have to be perfect... Just accurate enough so players on both sides of the court would agree. It also needs to just work well enough at the club level. Hawkeye needs to be good enough to track 150MPH serves.

 

[Gut4Tennis]

Thats amazing if it works as well as its supposed to! So you just strap one of those on each sides and it works its magic?

NO

Only 1 for the whole court is needed

 

[Gut4Tennis]

In a test at Stanford, Gentil and I played for an hour, and the In/Out beeped whenever one of his shots sailed long or wide. (I don’t remember missing any.) On close calls, we rushed over to watch a video replay on the In/Out screen. At hour’s end, Gentil whipped out a tablet and connected to the In/Out app, which showed where all our shots had landed and provided some other stats.

 

[Gut4Tennis]

I put a deposit down. To me the HD video and stat tracking is more interesting and worth the $200. The line calling is a bonus.

For the line calling, it doesn't have to be perfect... Just accurate enough so players on both sides of the court would agree. It also needs to just work well enough at the club level. Hawkeye needs to be good enough to track 150MPH serves.

where do I go to put a deposit down?

 

[eelhc]

where do I go to put a deposit down?

http://inout.tennis/en/index.htm

To clarify.. It wasn't a deposit. it was a donation. Which means my total cost is $225 once purchased. For $25. I get to be among the first in queue to get the device, and also get development/status updates.

If it's available this Summer, it could be September before it's delivered... I would like to have it while we can still play outdoors here in the Northeast.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[mmk]

In a test at Stanford, Gentil and I played for an hour, and the In/Out beeped whenever one of his shots sailed long or wide. (I don’t remember missing any.) On close calls, we rushed over to watch a video replay on the In/Out screen. At hour’s end, Gentil whipped out a tablet and connected to the In/Out app, which showed where all our shots had landed and provided some other stats.

How long does it take to calibrate?

 

[joe sch]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...200-ai-will-end-tennis-club-screaming-matches

Visit just about any tennis club on a Saturday, and you’re likely to witness otherwise sensible adults losing their minds over line calls. Players suffer complete meltdowns as they hurl insults. Parents morph into brooding teenagers. Friends become enemies. Postmatch beers can undo some of the damage, but the shame and resentment linger for days.

More civilized times may lie ahead. French inventor Grégoire Gentil has designed a $200 GoPro-size device that can be fastened to any net post and detect whether balls are in or out with surprising accuracy. It’s called, reasonably enough, the In/Out. “I was born in Paris and raised on clay,” Gentil says. On clay, the ball leaves a mark, and he recalls many arguments over a blemish on the court. “It was the starting point of this, I would say.”

Gentil, 44, now lives in Palo Alto and built the In/Out in his living room lab. The device monitors both sides of a tennis court using a pair of cameras similar to those found in smartphones. After attaching the In/Out to the net with a plastic strap, a player pushes a button on its screen, and it scans the court to find the lines using open-source artificial intelligence software. AI also helps the device track the ball’s flight, pace, and spin. “This would not have been possible five years ago,” Gentil says.

Looks to be brilliant !
Price is really surprising for a new smart device with soo much capability.
Assume enough storage for a long match.
Lots more potential for match shot analysis post play.
You state AI so does it have learning capability ?
Just based on the demo Id invest.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[joe sch]

Looks to be brilliant !
Price is really surprising for a new smart device with soo much capability.
Assume enough storage for a long match.
Lots more potential for match shot analysis post play.
You state AI so does it have learning capability ?
Just based on the demo Id invest.
Thanks for sharing.

BTW, just found out:

Chris Edwards heads the product testing work done by retailer Tennis Warehouse and has tried all three tracking systems. “The In/Out doesn’t bring the same depth of insight as PlaySight,” he says. “But as far as a portable, cheap device goes, the In/Out has the potential to be the best by far. I haven’t seen anything else like this.”

 

[eelhc]

I've been playing the last 2 months about once per week at the new 100 court USTA National Campus where they have a number of "smart" courts with Playsight technology (4 cameras/sensors) in each corner. They are still working out the glitches but we only had 2 errant calls out of 800 plus shots. The costs will come down with time and the accuracy will increase.

That's probably more accurate line calling than myself and any of my opponents.

Playsight does require a subscription to their services though so cost model would have to work.

Having played with it... How much would you be willing to pay per match for it? For me... Maybe $8 or so ($4/player singles, $2 doubles).

If any TW mods are reading this thread, perhaps a road trip to Palo Alto is in order? Were I a large tennis equipment retailer, I would evaluate it, and if it's good as claimed, I would find the guy for exclusive distribution rights once available.

Again, for me the video and stat analysis for $200 was enough to pull out the CC. It's worth it even without the line calling. Additionally, the guy seems like a nerdy tech dude who will always be improving the code. Particularly since he is an avid tennis player.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[joe sch]

How long does it take to calibrate?

This may help:

Gentil acknowledges his machine’s limits. The In/Out has a 20-millimeter margin of error, compared with about 3mm for the Hawk-Eye, and can get confused during doubles matches if the extra players block its line of sight. Gentil says he hopes to improve the device’s accuracy and recommends that two In/Outs be used for doubles. As for the possibility that Sony or PlaySight might sue him over the concept of his invention, he’s filed some patents himself, he says. “If Hawk-Eye is coming after me tomorrow morning, they are going against innovation and against the tennis community. I think I might have the tennis community with me.”

The bottom line: Gentil’s $200 line-calling AI isn’t as accurate as rival products, but unlike them, it’s affordable enough for mass adoption.

 

[joe sch]

Looks to be brilliant !
Price is really surprising for a new smart device with soo much capability.
Assume enough storage for a long match.
Lots more potential for match shot analysis post play.
You state AI so does it have learning capability ?
Just based on the demo Id invest.
Thanks for sharing.

RE: AI

After attaching the In/Out to the net with a plastic strap, a player pushes a button on its screen, and it scans the court to find the lines using open-source artificial intelligence software. AI also helps the device track the ball’s flight, pace, and spin. “This would not have been possible five years ago,” Gentil says.

 

[eelhc]

This may help:

Gentil acknowledges his machine’s limits. The In/Out has a 20-millimeter margin of error, compared with about 3mm for the Hawk-Eye...

20mm (2cm) is a pretty wide gap. I'd be curious to know if it's +/-10mm or +/-20mm. In other words...

Can it call a ball that's in 10mm out and out 10mm in? or is it in 20mm out and out 20mm in? That's huge.. But then again, I'm not really buying it for the line calling.

 

[McLovin]

This is brilliant, until someone hits a shot that ricochets off it & into the court for a winner, then proclaims they've won the point because it is 'part of the netpost' ...

(we actually had someone claim the scorecard was 'in play' this past weekend)

 

[WisconsinPlayer]

NO

Only 1 for the whole court is needed

Yeah I read that after my comment! Sounds great

 

[GBplayer]

3/4" is a lot. If more than an inch it is obvious, also in doubles matches there will often be a player in the way.

 

[eelhc]

3/4" is a lot. If more than an inch it is obvious, also in doubles matches there will often be a player in the way.

It is a lot...but calls that close occur only a few times in a match (more if someone is painting lines that day... had some opponents do that to me annoyingly often). Suppose it gets those close calls 50/50 right/wrong... It's still pretty darned good. Maybe it's my middle aged eyesight but judging when a fast moving ball deflected clearly enough to see a 3/4" color gap is pretty darned difficult for me.

 

[jm1980]

NO

Only 1 for the whole court is needed

The creator said the extra bodies in doubles might obstruct the view and it helps to have another one at the other net post, and the devices sync with each other

 

[jm1980]

There was this kickstarter a few years ago for a device that was supposed to track your shots (like a smart sensor) that was supposed to come out in January 2015... It's March 2017 and still nothing:

https://www.kickstarter.com/project...nger-make-your-tennis-racket-smar/description

Just be careful backing projects like these

 

[Maximus XXIV]

Looks like they ran out of money. Seems that most of the items I have been interested in on Kickstarter fail to come to market. I am hoping this guy can sign a deal with a manufacturer to get the funds it takes to get to market. I would really like one of these even if not super accurate. As log as everyone agrees it has the last call, it makes tennis a bit easier.

 

[jm1980]

Looks like they ran out of money. Seems that most of the items I have been interested in on Kickstarter fail to come to market. I am hoping this guy can sign a deal with a manufacturer to get the funds it takes to get to market. I would really like one of these even if not super accurate. As log as everyone agrees it has the last call, it makes tennis a bit easier.

I have zero faith in Kickstarter stuff

Crowdfunding is basically a way for scammers to get easy money from gullible people on the Internet. If the product were viable, they would get funding the traditional way.

At least this guy doesn't have a Kickstarter but instead he has a seemingly advanced prototype, so I have a little more faith in him

 

[Mareqnyc]

I so need this in my life. There are a couple of guys I get to play with that will call a 5 inch "out" ball "in" and argue like the life of their children depended on it.

 

[GBplayer]

It is a lot...but calls that close occur only a few times in a match (more if someone is painting lines that day... had some opponents do that to me annoyingly often). Suppose it gets those close calls 50/50 right/wrong... It's still pretty darned good. Maybe it's my middle aged eyesight but judging when a fast moving ball deflected clearly enough to see a 3/4" color gap is pretty darned difficult for me.

Some are good at calling (Federer is nearly always right), and some are poor judges (They throw a party if Andy Murray gets a call right).

 

[jm1980]

Some are good at calling (Federer is nearly always right), and some are poor judges (They throw a party if Andy Murray gets a call right).

LOL, this is comedy gold. Fed probably makes the most wrong challenges in the Top 10

 

[Maximus XXIV]

I have zero faith in Kickstarter stuff

Crowdfunding is basically a way for scammers to get easy money from gullible people on the Internet. If the product were viable, they would get funding the traditional way.

At least this guy doesn't have a Kickstarter but instead he has a seemingly advanced prototype, so I have a little more faith in him

There are some that launch. I could not find a percentage in a quick search but the Qlipp sensor was an Indiegogo project. It has its issues but it is a real product. I think people do not realize just how much it costs to launch a product. 100k can go really fast if you have to pay software engineers to work on your product and that is before design and manufacturing comes into play.

 

[jm1980]

There are some that launch. I could not find a percentage in a quick search but the Qlipp sensor was an Indiegogo project. It has its issues but it is a real product. I think people do not realize just how much it costs to launch a product. 100k can go really fast if you have to pay software engineers to work on your product and that is before design and manufacturing comes into play.

Yes, it probably would have cost the shot tracking folks more than 100k to pay developers for the software development alone

 

[Clintspin]

I didn't read all the comments but I am guessing this doesn't track serves. If so how would it know you were serving?

 

[Maximus XXIV]

Some real data from one tournament.

http://www.ausopen.com/en_AU/scores/challenge/

 

[Maximus XXIV]

I didn't read all the comments but I am guessing this doesn't track serves. If so how would it know you were serving?

The article did not get into that kind of detail. We will see what he software can do if it gets close to launching.

 

[jm1980]

I didn't read all the comments but I am guessing this doesn't track serves. If so how would it know you were serving?

If the demo is anything to go by, it will track serves:

 

[GBplayer]

LOL, this is comedy gold. Fed probably makes the most wrong challenges in the Top 10

Is there any pro you would trust then

 

[GBplayer]

I didn't read all the comments but I am guessing this doesn't track serves. If so how would it know you were serving?

Anything above 100mph is a serve.

 

[jm1980]

Is there any pro you would trust then

Djokovic misses far fewer challenges than Fed

 

[Deleted member 23235]

LOL, this is comedy gold. Fed probably makes the most wrong challenges in the Top 10

damn that last call looked clearly out.... i'd have definitely called that out in a match.

 

[RogueFLIP]

I didn't read all the comments but I am guessing this doesn't track serves. If so how would it know you were serving?

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/in-out-tennis-camera.584577/#post-11016874

It does have a serve function according to Brittany.

 

[mikeler]

That's probably more accurate line calling than myself and any of my opponents.

Playsight does require a subscription to their services though so cost model would have to work.

Having played with it... How much would you be willing to pay per match for it? For me... Maybe $8 or so ($4/player singles, $2 doubles).

If any TW mods are reading this thread, perhaps a road trip to Palo Alto is in order? Were I a large tennis equipment retailer, I would evaluate it, and if it's good as claimed, I would find the guy for exclusive distribution rights once available.

Again, for me the video and stat analysis for $200 was enough to pull out the CC. It's worth it even without the line calling. Additionally, the guy seems like a nerdy tech dude who will always be improving the code. Particularly since he is an avid tennis player.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

It's free for now until they work out the glitches in the system. Rumor is they will charge $5 extra per session to use it.

 

[Maximus XXIV]

Djokovic misses far fewer challenges than Fed

That may mean that Djokovich is not challenging enough. In theory, shouldn't you end the match with very few challenges left on the table? If you only challenge sure things you are not optimizing the rule.

 

[Robert F]

Looks pretty cool.
Now if this becomes widespread and clubs start using it or a lot of players buy it, if 2 courts side by side are using it, when it beeps would it be hard to tell what court it is?

 

[heninfan99]

If the demo is anything to go by, it will track serves:

That's cool.

 

[joe sch]

BTW, just found out:

Chris Edwards heads the product testing work done by retailer Tennis Warehouse and has tried all three tracking systems. “The In/Out doesn’t bring the same depth of insight as PlaySight,” he says. “But as far as a portable, cheap device goes, the In/Out has the potential to be the best by far. I haven’t seen anything else like this.”

@TW Staff maybe we can get some more comments from Chris ? Maybe the above review is listed on the site somewhere ?