Mental strength: Federer and Djokovic

[La_Para]

I thought it would be an interesting idea to compare Federer and Djokovic on mental strength again. After 2011 and (early) 2012 the general consensus was that Djokovic had more mental strength than Federer.

He fought his way to a three slam season suriviving double matchpoints at the US open, back to back five setters at AO 2012 and outlasting Nadal several times, something which was thought to be impossible before.
It seemed as if no matter what you threw at him he'd come out stronger than before.

Obviously he isn't the same player he was back then, so I'm curious as to what the general consensus is now regarding their mental strength. (Nadal's not in the mix for obvious reasons.)

Do you think Djokovic has the edge, Federer, or are they about equal?

I'll end with the following quote:wink::

Adversity causes some men to break; others to break records.

 

[La_Para]

Poll's up!

 

[Backspin1183]

Federer. The man is a monster in Grand Slam finals. He can be a Fed error but not a Chokerer. Djokovic on the other hand.......

 

[NatF]

About equal, they're strong in different ways.

 

[Bukmeikara]

Equal at the very top.

 

[Djokovic2011]

I'd say they're about equal. Federer is the better big match player which is obviously a sign of great mental strength but Djokovic is better when matches get tight or go the distance which is a positive for him.

 

[torpantennis]

Federer, by a countrymile. Djoker OTOH was in that Davis Cup/gluten-free ecstasy for that short stint, but when he realized what he has accomplished, after AO12, he has dropped back to his real self in mental toughness.

 

[Noelan]

LOL,now this, after endless moaning over matches at Rome 2006, USO10/11, AO2005, W2008, AO09...
For someone who is considered to be a GOAT from his fans and level of his competition 04/07, Federer should be well ahead in this, but in reality Novak is equal/or even sligtly better/ in this department , and he has some time infront of him to improves himself there.

 

[big ted]

i think when djokovic is feeling confident he cant lose (2011). but he is more mentally fragile than federer

 

[torpantennis]

i think when djokovic is feeling confident he cant lose (2011). but he is more mentally fragile than federer

Who couldn't agree with this? Essentially, you're saying that 2011 was a fluke.

 

[mike danny]

Well Djokovic is mentally stronger than Fed IMO, but Fed has improved leaps and bound in this department at 33. I think he saved more MP than Djokovic did in 2011 or 2012, when the serb was mentally a rock.

Also double faulting twice on Championship Point isn't really a sign of supreme mental toughness from Novak. This stat kinda ruins him a bit IMO

 

[beltsman]

Fed. He definitely showed it this year.

Djokovic had a brief mentally strong run but since then he's been choking left and right.

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

At Slams Federer is mentally stronger...

Outside slams Its a close call... so overall Its Fed.

 

[Noelan]

Well Djokovic is mentally stronger than Fed IMO, but Fed has improved leaps and bound in this department at 33. I think he saved more MP than Djokovic did in 2011 or 2012, when the serb was mentally a rock.

Also double faulting twice on Championship Point isn't really a sign of supreme mental toughness from Novak. This stat kinda ruins him a bit IMO

Against whom he saved those MP and when?
But yes, hes improved , it requires considerable mental strength to save MP against Leonardo Mayer in Shangai R2, Ivo Karlovic SF Basel, and Wawrinka SF WTF/with Mirkas help, lol.
CPP in losing position are differernt then MPs for player who was in winning position but eventually lost the match. Federer wasted quite some of those in his career.

 

[D.Nalby12]

Djokovic has managed most difficult task for ATG, that is losing GS Final to headcase choker like Murray twice in period of 10 months in his prime something poor Federer even couldn't manage at 31! This sums up Djokovic's lead in this department. :lol:

Additional stat: 7-7.

 

[Sysyphus]

I'd say they're about equal. Federer is the better big match player which is obviously a sign of great mental strength but Djokovic is better when matches get tight or go the distance which is a positive for him.

This is pretty much the truth. Novak is better in the 5th, and good in tight moments. Fed's 17 is a testament to his own strength, and he has done some fantastic escapes too.
I think the question causes a lot of semantic problems, since people mean different things by "mental strength".

 

[D.Nalby12]

Djokovic was mentally rock solid in 2011 and early part of 2012. Before and after that he has done some legendary choke jobs like gifting GS finals to clearly inferior player like Murray, double faulting on MPs, losing two sets in GS final holding SPs in each, famous USO 2013 choke. He even almost choked 2014 Wimbledon final to Federer with no ground game!

Clearly deserving candidate for 'Lifetime Choker' Award.:lol:

 

[D.Nalby12]

Well Djokovic is mentally stronger than Fed IMO, but Fed has improved leaps and bound in this department at 33. I think he saved more MP than Djokovic did in 2011 or 2012, when the serb was mentally a rock.

Also double faulting twice on Championship Point isn't really a sign of supreme mental toughness from Novak. This stat kinda ruins him a bit IMO

I don't know in which parallel universe you're living in but note doing inhuman tasks like spending 237 straight weeks at no 1, winning 3 GS in 3 seasons,winning 24 consecutive finals, 18/19 GS finals, 23 straight GS semifinals, five straight Wimbledons and USO titles …………………… takes legendary mental strength.

 

[Tennisknowledge99]

Nole is better mental toughness player when he faced Rafa.

Overall Federer is better

 

[La_Para]

I'd say they're about equal. Federer is the better big match player which is obviously a sign of great mental strength but Djokovic is better when matches get tight or go the distance which is a positive for him.

I can agree with this. Both have area's where they excel when it comes to mental toughness, which makes for an interesting comparison.

What strikes me most is that Djokovic's game has improved a lot since 2011. His service, volleys, slice have all improved a lot while his groundstrokes have remained relatively the same. As a whole, you could say his game is better than it was back then, yet it hasn't translated into more titles or similar years.

Just goes to show the importance of the mental game.

 

[Cup8489]

Until Wimbledon this year, Federer and Djokovic had lost the same number of major finals... but Federer was 10 majors ahead of him. If that doesn't show who is tougher mentally, then I don't know what would.

Additionally, Federer has one of the best stats for coming back from 2 sets down.. more so than Djokovic I think.

 

[sisona]

Novak has always been better under pressure, at least since 2011...

 

[Bukmeikara]

I can agree with this. Both have area's where they excel when it comes to mental toughness, which makes for an interesting comparison.

What strikes me most is that Djokovic's game has improved a lot since 2011. His service, volleys, slice have all improved a lot while his groundstrokes have remained relatively the same. As a whole, you could say his game is better than it was back then, yet it hasn't translated into more titles or similar years.

Just goes to show the importance of the mental game.

True and not true. Its just that Nadal and Federer are constanly improving and changing things in their games. For example Nadal changed his strategy against Novak in 2012 and that gave a result.

 

[cc0509]

I have to say they are about equal in that department.

 

[sportsfan1]

Ever since Djokovic manned up and quit retiring, he's demonstrated better mental strength than Fed. He's consistently dominated the field and has great results at Slams and Masters. Only Rafa has been able to pose problems for him.
Fed's made some amazing escape acts, but that's been more against the "wider" field than the others in the big 4. If he had closed out Wimby 2014 final or the 2008 final against Rafa, the advantage may have veered slightly back towards him. But those strange matches where he has gone AWOL in the 5th set - think Delpo USO 09 - count against him.

 

[Anti-Fedal]

Djokovic. But they're both pretty poor to be honest.

 

[The Green Mile]

They both showcase different ways of their mental strength. I would say around equal. Both have done things that require tremendous it.

 

[Prabhanjan]

7/7 and 17/8? How may would bet here that Nole would win 10 more GS finals at the expense of a mere loss? Mental strength of Fed is highly underrated.

GS finals strength of Federer is so very underrated that its laughable.

He won his first 7 GS finals, and 12 GS finals of non-clay. Fetch another player this good. When it comes to the REAL mental strength, can somebody argue how good is Nole with respect to these two stat?

 

[beast of mallorca]

But they're both pretty poor to be honest.

Really ? The rest of the ATP must be horrendous then ? If both are poor, who is good then ? :-?

Wow !! TW posters must be great, legendary, High and Mighty people then !! Very, very high standards.........:twisted:

Unfreakinbelievable !!!

 

[Chico]

Novak of course. He is much more mentally strong than Federer. Fed fanboys army voting for Fed in the poll can't change this simple fact.

This is a great testament to Fed's greatness actually. He managed to achieve the GOAT status while being relatively mentally weak comparing to other tennis greats.

 

[90's Clay]

Federer. The man is a monster in Grand Slam finals. He can be a Fed error but not a Chokerer. Djokovic on the other hand.......

Except when Nadal is on the other end of the court

 

[90's Clay]

Tough to say really. Fed is mainly ALL pure tennis ability with questionable mental toughness under pressure and the big situations.

If Fed's mental toughness matched his ability his resume would be absolutely sick. How many deciding sets has Fed dropped in his career?? It must be a TERRIBLE record.

 

[bullfan]

Both are mentally weak against Nadal.

Novak has more choking than Fed.

 

[Mr.Snrub]

Novak is weaker. He cries like a baby every time the fans cheer for his opponent. I never see Fed/Nadal/Murray do that.

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

Djokovic is mentally stronger off court.... Jelena > Mirka....

 

[Mr.Snrub]

Djokovic is mentally stronger off court.... Jelena > Mirka....

I think it's the opposite. It takes a lot more mental strength to have sex with Mirka. Jelena is very easy on the eyes and takes care of herself.

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

I think it's the opposite. It takes a lot more mental strength to have sex with Mirka. Jelena is very easy on the eyes and takes care of herself.

Good point didnt see it that way :lol:

 

[Prabhanjan]

How can one win 12 finals on favorite courts, Grass+Hards in Feds case, and yet be claimed to not have mental strength? That was a period from 2003-2008. Over 6 years he proved day-in day-out to be a monster on the final day of championships at grass and hard courts and not have mental strength? Whom are we all kidding?

 

[beast of mallorca]

I think it's the opposite. It takes a lot more mental strength to have sex with Mirka. Jelena is very easy on the eyes and takes care of herself.

Oh my goodness, you guys crack me up..........:twisted:

 

[Gary Duane]

I don't see how a player can have the most weeks at #1 and not be one of the toughest players, mentally.

I recently watched the end of the AO final in 2012. Right up to the end it looked like Nadal still had a 50/50 chance to pull it out.

But Novak was doing his "hands out to the side and up" to his box. He actually looked terrified that he was going to lose - again. Then were was all the desperate crossing, like he could not win it without support from God.

So no, I think he is the most valuable mentally of he top three, or has been so far over his career.

That's not a cut at Novak. Just saying that if he had more confidence, he would have won even more slams.

 

[Gary Duane]

I think it's the opposite. It takes a lot more mental strength to have sex with Mirka. Jelena is very easy on the eyes and takes care of herself.

Before the nonsense at the WTF this year, I would have said that's pretty ugly to say.

But after Mirkagate, I no longer want to defend her.

 

[FHdtl]

Novak of course. He is much more mentally strong than Federer. Fed fanboys army voting for Fed in the poll can't change this simple fact.

This is a great testament to Fed's greatness actually. He managed to achieve the GOAT status while being relatively mentally weak comparing to other tennis greats.

The truth is Novak has nothing to be ashamed of. None of the finals he lost was due to him being weaker player but due to outside unfair factors.

1. USO 2007 - Choked in the first final - quite normal thing to do. Was better player in the first two sets but failed to convert 7 set points.

2. USO 2010 - Exhausted and unfocused after epic SF vs Fed, while Nadal was fully rested after extremely joke of a draw and even bigger joke of the SF.

3. FO 2012 - Rain. Nadal bullied the umpire to stop the match after losing 8 games in the row and being totally humiliated. The match should have continued.

4. USO 2012 - Wind. Was better player than Murray but lost first two sets due to wind and was exhausted at the end in the 5th.

5. FO 2013 - Pascal Maria. Nothing else needs to be said. Not a final, but de facto final.

6. W 2013 - Novak could not go vs whole country and didn't even try to compete properly in the final. Also was exhausted after another epic SF he had to endure, while Murray was cakewalking to the final.

7. USO 2013 - see USO 2010. Also Nadal's dirty tactics from Montreal and Novak still feeling Pascal Maria's injustice payed off for Nadal unfortunately. Novak was UE machine in 1st and 4th sets due to that.

8. FO 2014 - Sickness. Throwing up all over the court due to stomach flu.

So none of the loses were because Novak is unstable, or not being able to compete in finals, or him being lesser or weaker player. All loses were due to bad luck and unfavorable and unfair circumstances. Nothing more. The luck and justice have to turn at some point and the time is now.

Bruh...
You probably also were claiming that Djokovic was choking in the Indian Wells and Wimbledon finals, hence the close/deceiving scoreline. Its fine to think that, but if you do you can't really claim he is mentally stronger then Federer. Doesn't add up.

 

[kandamrgam]

I give it to Novak.

The problem with lot of arguments like Djokovic choked in big moments, lost to Murray, lost to Nadal etc is that they ignore Djoker himself is not that great a player to win every time. I dont see what's the real shame in losing to other members of Big4. Sure he is the no.1 player, but is he that much better than others to not lose matches? It's like saying Ferrer or Del Potro are not mentally strong since they often lose to so and so. Their game itself dont hold every time. The same can be said for Djokovic.

Does he play like he is owned mentally? I never thought so. You could say that in RG but not much imo, but who anyway doesnt wilt under pressure against Nadal.

Here are few match stats how Fedalovic fare in big moments which I posted before. These are percentages, not absolute figures.

- TB record: Fed > Djoker > Nadal
- Final matches: Nadal > Djoker > Fed
- After winning 1st set: Djoker > Nadal > Fed
- After losing 1st set: Nadal > Fed > Djoker
- Deciding set: Djoker > Nadal> Fed
- 5th set: Nadal > Djoker > Fed
- Break points saved: Fed > Nadal > Djoker
- Break points converted: Nadal > Djoker > Fed
- Match won while saving match point/Match lost while having match point: Djoker > Nadal > Fed

I believe these little stats show who has shown better mental strength, simply put: Nadal > Djoker > Fed. What separates Nadal and Djokovic in the above stats is that in some of the categories Federer is too below in all time list, while Nadal and Djokovic doesn't fare as bad anywhere.

 

[Bukmeikara]

Federer was able to completely destroy the main rivals of his generation - Hewitt, Roddick, Safin and Ferrero. You cant say the same thing neither Djokovic or Nadal.

You cant achieve what Federer did if you are not a mental giant. Only Nadal can be considered equal to Roger on that deparment

 

[Bukmeikara]

Here are few match stats how Fedalovic fare in big moments which I posted before. These are percentages, not absolute figures.

- TB record: Fed > Djoker > Nadal
- Final matches: Nadal > Djoker > Fed
- After winning 1st set: Djoker > Nadal > Fed
- After losing 1st set: Nadal > Fed > Djoker
- Deciding set: Djoker > Nadal> Fed
- 5th set: Nadal > Djoker > Fed
- Break points saved: Fed > Nadal > Djoker
- Break points converted: Nadal > Djoker > Fed
- Match won while saving match point/Match lost while having match point: Djoker > Nadal > Fed

I believe these little stats show who has shown better mental strength, simply put: Nadal > Djoker > Fed. What separates Nadal and Djokovic in the above stats is that in some of the categories Federer is too below in all time list, while Nadal and Djokovic doesn't fare as bad anywhere.

Final matches - this is a stupid stat. Federer has 120+ finals while Nadal 80+ and Djokovic 60+. Even now the three of them are very close and pretty much the same 2:1. And Nadal and Djokovic would undoubtely lose their touch when the age comes in. Federer had a strike with 20+ finals won in a row that something that neither Nadal or Djokovic were able to do, probably even with 10 matches in a row. This is clearly in Federer favor.

After winnin the first set is a stupid one, after losing the first set is a good one.

Deciding sets - While in top shape Federer was able to close his matches before this 5th or 3th sets not like Novak. Nine of his Slams came after 3-0!!!! Djokovic has only one.

5th set- Bad form Federer is reaching far more 5th sets than both Nadal and Novak. For example Australia 2013 against Murray where he was completely outplayed and yet managed to prolong the match.

The only bad stat that Federer has is probably the % of break points converted

 

[ThomasGB]

Federer. Judging by Novak's actions during the match against Nishikori, how he reacted to the crowd when they cheered for Kei (after a Novak double fault).

 

[Steve0904]

As many have said, they are equal in different ways, but over the course of their careers, Federer has been better for longer. I'd say they are about equal now, but that wasn't always the case. So I went with Federer.

 

[Noelan]

Final matches - this is a stupid stat. Federer has 120+ finals while Nadal 80+ and Djokovic 60+. Even now the three of them are very close and pretty much the same 2:1. And Nadal and Djokovic would undoubtely lose their touch when the age comes in. Federer had a strike with 20+ finals won in a row that something that neither Nadal or Djokovic were able to do, probably even with 10 matches in a row. This is clearly in Federer favor.

After winnin the first set is a stupid one, after losing the first set is a good one.

Deciding sets - While in top shape Federer was able to close his matches before this 5th or 3th sets not like Novak. Nine of his Slams came after 3-0!!!! Djokovic has only one.

5th set- Bad form Federer is reaching far more 5th sets than both Nadal and Novak. For example Australia 2013 against Murray where he was completely outplayed and yet managed to prolong the match.

The only bad stat that Federer has is probably the % of break points converted

This only shows again, and again how weak era was 04/07.Untill Rafa, then Novak came, none player had a decent defensive skills to oppose him,much less a good mixture of offensive and defensive , so no problem for Federer, as hes player with probably the best offensive arsenal in game, serve/FH combo. It's natural for him that he fininished his matches in 3 sets at that time.As soon as hes took over to defend himself more than he used to and therefore he gets out of his comfort zone, his mental strenght start to decline.All numbers from post that you quoted, and trying to deny are the real signs of state mental strenght.
So Nadal.............Federer=<Novak

 

[Bukmeikara]

This only shows again, and again how weak era was 04/07.Untill Rafa, then Novak came, none player had a decent defensive skills to oppose him,much less a good mixture of offensive and defensive , so no problem for Federer, as hes player with probably the best offensive arsenal in game, serve/FH combo. It's natural for him that he fininished his matches in 3 sets at that time.As soon as hes took over to defend himself more than he used to, his mental strenght start to decline.All numbers from post that you quoted, and trying to deny are the real signs of state mental strenght.
So Nadal.............Federer=<Novak

Roddick, Nalbandian, Davydenko have more wins against Federer, Nadal and Djokovic than all of top 10 from 2011-2014 with the exception of Murray. Federer had to defend because the conditions get slower. Answer me this, how someone from a week generation be able to be number 2 at 33 with Novak and Nadal. Why Feliciano Lopez reached his career high at 33? Why Benneteau reached his career high at 33? Why Haas at 34 was able to beat the number 1 Djokovic with 2-0 at a Master and why at 35 he was number 12 in the world? Why Robredo and Youzhny were both in top 20 last two seasons? Players like Fish, Ferrer, Melzer peaked at 29-30 years during Novak and Nadal time. Weak generation Hewitt at 32 defeated Wawrinka with 3-0, someone who would beat both Novak and Nadal some months later.

 

[maratha_warrior]

Both are almost equal ..
But two things definately go against federer here..
1. fed lost 2 semis
us open 10/11 after having match points , novak and rafa have never lost aftr having match points ..
and the 11 us semi , dat choke was horrible in fact .. no other player in history wud hve lost from dat position.. even lot of fed fans agree here.. Djoker had already lost and the way fed gave away dat match as insane...

2. No one ever on tour, has ever given Rafa such pain as Novak did.. You could just watch Rafa get terminated each time over and over again in 11-12 ...
Rafa is the epitome of mental toughness and to do dat to rafa needs a Mental giant aswell..
plus its easy to win in 3-4 sets but when the game goes in 5th set , mental strength matters..
fed has never won against djokovic wen the match went to 5 sets..
Ofcourse fed has 17 slama...
Both fed and Novak are equal in mental toughness..imo