Moya on Rafa's "mental and physical fatigue," pulling out of Wimbledon, and the SF against Djokovic

[The Blond Blur]

Coach spitting straight fax. RAFA definitely overplayed this CC season. At this stage in his career he really should only be playing 1-2 warmup events before RG. He just played Rome last year for obvious reasons, and he had way more in the tank for the one that mattered. At the very least he needs to skip Madrid as it plays nothing like RG. As far as Wimby goes, he was skipping that even if he won. The short turn around after that many events back to back is a recipe for disaster.

 

[jm1980]

I totally agree it won't be easy at all.

For starters, he needs to fix the damn serve (and if there is an underlying issue, attend to it). I really must be missing something but I don't get why he can't re-employ the US Open 2010 serve just for a big tournament such as US Open & AO.

One of our resident Rafa experts @clayqueen or @octobrina10 mentioned that 2010 USO serve brought him some kind of discomfort, so he was discouraged from using it again

Nadal did experiment with a faster serve at the 2019 Australian Open, though. He reached the final without being broken since the first round (!). This gained some attention, and many Nadal fans at the time thought this would give him an edge over Djokovic. Novak himself complimented Rafa's new serve, but added that it would be different playing against him [Djokovic].

We all saw what ended up happening: the faster serve just came back with interest and Nadal was forced to hit a lot of half volleys from the baseline as the second shot after his 1st serve. He ended that match winning more points off his 2nd serve (62%) than off his 1st serve (51%). And I think that was the end of that particular experiment.

 

[itrium84]

He pretty much implied he was injured and his comments are baffling for a tournament director.

Anyone can imply anything, maybe Novak had pain in both of his feet. We'll never know. Important: Forget described a discomfort, because mentioning injury would be flat out lying. That's why he chose his words carefully. Neither Moya or Rafa never even implied any injury, and they absolutely would, if there was any.

 

[NoleFam]

Anyone can imply anything, maybe Novak had pain in both of his feet. We'll never know. Important: Forget described a discomfort, because mentioning injury would be flat out lying. That's why he chose his words carefully. Neither Moya or Rafa never even implied any injury, and they absolutely would, if there was any.

I don't think he should have said anything because it wasn't his place and made him look like he was making excuses for Nadal's loss. Looking back, his 2019 comments also were a bit baffling and clearly he has a favorite.

Guy Forget: If he (Nadal) did not have injuries, he would have already reached 20.

In an interview to WeLoveTennis, the French Open Tournament Director Guy Forget commented on how many more titles in Paris Rafael Nadal can win. "If he is injury-free, he will be the favourite next year. Dominic Thiem or Novak Djokovic can have problems. Now he has such control on this surface...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

 

[MadariKatu]

For some reason I have the feeling that it's more mental exhaustion than physical fatigue.

 

[Pandaman]

Moya's interview, via Punto de Break (link to article, in Spanish)

What made Nadal withdraw from Wimbledon and the Olympics

"The clay court season was very hard on him, with a lot of mental and physical pressure. Rafa ended up exhausted.

He is going to take a well deserved break. This is a marathon, a long distance race where you have to make some hard decisions, and we thought it was best to stop and come back at full strength. Rafa two years ago had reached a point of great mental fatigue from which it was very difficult to escape, and now he felt that he was close to that again. He can't allow himself to play a Grand Slam if he's not at 100%, because of his reputation, of prestige, and how he is."

How the loss to Djokovic affected him

"The loss didn't affect him as much as the fact that there's one fewer week than usual to prepare for Wimbledon, as well as the context of being in a pandemic. It's complicated on a mental level to face a lockdown ahead of a big match, to play with few spectators. This affects Rafa, he is a person who has a great connection with people and it was hard to go to London with a quarantine in between."

Analysis of the match against Djokovic

"It was a match similar to the one they played in Rome a few weeks prior. It was all very even, and it was vital to win a series of points that could change the balance of the match. Novak was better in these situations, like at 5-6 in the third set, but it was also key that Rafa allowed him to settle into the match when he was dominating at 5-0 in the first. Even though he closed the set, seeing Djokovic raise his level created doubts in him.

We talk a lot about tactics, but to win these matches you have to be on point with all your strokes. Rafa make a lot of unforced errors and his serve and backhand weren't at their usual level. Novak did it better, he pinned Rafa to his backhand corner, from where he couldn't easily escape. We will learn a lot from this match.

[Djokovic] has an impressive mentality, and determination rarely seen in the history of the sport. All members of the Big 3 have made each other better."

No one will say anything about Nadal not liking few fans, quarantines, or bubbles. They'll keep applauding his butt picking and gloss over the fact that he feels the same as Djokovic. At least Novak is up front and honest about it.

 

[jm1980]

No one will say anything about Nadal not liking few fans, quarantines, or bubbles. They'll keep applauding his butt picking and gloss over the fact that he feels the same as Djokovic. At least Novak is up front and honest about it.

You see, this is Nadal being "principled" whereas Djokovic is "entitled."

It's the same way Nadal's over-the-top celebrations are lauded as "passionate" while Djokovic doing the same thing would be called "arrogant" or "disrespectful"

 

[mwym]

They'll learn to find an answer for Novak's abuse of Rafa's backhand.

To stop Djokovic from making Nadal 'run too much' in BO5 Nadal needs to make Djokovic miss more hits ... on Djokovic's best surface.

 

[DRII]

Nice comments from Moya. So why did Forget come out and imply Nadal lost because he had an injured foot? I don't trust this guy and he revealed his bias. I don't for one second think it's a coincidence that time and time again Novak was being shafted by the schedule at RG while Nadal was not. It's amazing Djokovic was able to win 2 RG titles with someone like that as tournament director.

LOL

 

[DRII]

You see, this is Nadal being "principled" whereas Djokovic is "entitled."

It's the same way Nadal's over-the-top celebrations are lauded as "passionate" while Djokovic doing the same thing would be called "arrogant" or "disrespectful"

The same thing... Lol

 

[DRII]

Coach spitting straight fax. RAFA definitely overplayed this CC season. At this stage in his career he really should only be playing 1-2 warmup events before RG. He just played Rome last year for obvious reasons, and he had way more in the tank for the one that mattered. At the very least he needs to skip Madrid as it plays nothing like RG. As far as Wimby goes, he was skipping that even if he won. The short turn around after that many events back to back is a recipe for disaster.

If Nadal's wrist wasn't numb, he would be playing Wimbledon.

 

[DRII]

I totally agree it won't be easy at all.

For starters, he needs to fix the damn serve (and if there is an underlying issue, attend to it). I really must be missing something but I don't get why he can't re-employ the US Open 2010 serve just for a big tournament such as US Open & AO.

That serve wouldn't work on clay. Too flat. Nadal's natural lefty slicing serve is the best for clay.

 

[TennisFan3]

He will be back. He’s a great champion.

Looking doubtful IMO.
This really could be the end. The younger players are getting stronger and RG was really the last bastion. Next year there will be Djokovic, a peaking Titspas, improved Sinner, mentally strong Zverev, Medvedev, Rublev etc etc.

 

[TennisFan3]

I totally agree it won't be easy at all.

For starters, he needs to fix the damn serve (and if there is an underlying issue, attend to it). I really must be missing something but I don't get why he can't re-employ the US Open 2010 serve just for a big tournament such as US Open & AO.

That UsOpen 2010 NEO serve lasted just a few tournaments until winter 2010.
And then it never came back. EVER.

Nadal serving at 135 mph top speed and closer to 120 mph on average. It was like a dream. But like most dreams, we soon wake up.

Nadal's lack of improvements on serve are the single biggest reason he hasn't won recent slams off clay. Fed and Novak improved the serve with age, but Nadal serve regressed. It is the clay court Spanish mentality of treating the serve as a surrogate child.

 

[SonnyT]

[Djokovic] has an impressive mentality, and determination rarely seen in the history of the sport. All members of the Big 3 have made each other better."

That's the key phrase. Even when you outplay him, at the crucial moment he might still prevail, because he's stronger mentally. That was what happened at 40:15!

Note that Moya didn't compare Djokovic's mentality with any other tennis player. He specifically mentioned the history of sports!

 

[SonicNirvana]

I'm puzzled by Moya's 'learn a lot' remark. What would they learn they didn't already know? Djokovic can't be effectively countered unless he wants it.

Novak employed a strat he never used before on him.

 

[terribleIVAN]

Fed and Novak improved the serve with age, but Nadal serve regressed. It is the clay court Spanish mentality of treating the serve as a surrogate child.

Rafa doesn't need to win points on serve.

That's cheating.

You win points by covering the four corners of the court, spilling your guts out for 5 hours (6 if possible), engaging in exhausting rallies and perpetually playing short in order to give your opponent the opportunity to force you to constantly chase impossible shots.

That's what real men do.

Winning cheap points on serve is for girlie men.

 

[helterskelter]

I don't really agree with the consensus that he overplayed going into Roland Garros. He had two weeks off prior to the event! Plus, he lost in the quarter-finals of both Monte Carlo and Madrid, so he only played three matches in each event. 16 matches spread out over the course of seven weeks doesn't seem like too much to me. It might be too much mental energy but I don't think it is physically. And if it was too much mental energy that's partly because he wasn't playing as well as usual and so had many close matches, which can be sapping. But on the other hand, he probably thought that continuing to play would help him raise his game, and for the first five rounds and one set at Roland Garros, it looked like it had.

Going forward, I can see a case for not playing Madrid, because the conditions are so different to those at Roland Garros, and because he'll be back to just one week off in between Rome and Roland Garros. But I think he should plan on playing Monte Carlo, Barcelona, and Rome. There are two weeks between Barcelona and Rome, so with that schedule, he'd go to Roland Garros having played in just one of the four weeks prior to Roland Garros.

 

[Jai]

Wasn't there a gleeful thread few days back, declaring Rafa was injured after all? there were a few posters who went to town on that, claiming that as the ONLY reason Rafa lost.

Moya seems to pretty much indicate no injury.....physical and mental exhaustion is not an "injury". BTW, curious how Guy Forget's statement on "bit of pain in the foot", got blown up into a major injury claim.

If we've learned anything about irony from the last 2 slams - at the AO, Novak falls hard on court, in full view of cameras - plays subsequent rounds quite hindered - people still debate and debate and deny he is injured. Whereas injury gets claimed for Rafa at RG even when he himself has not said he is injured at all. Tennis forums can be crazy!

 

[airchallenge2]

"All members of the Big 3 have made each other better"

+1.

 

[Jai]

"All members of the Big 3 have made each other better"

+1.

Very true. Two conclusions- Firstly, Goran could learn something about deportment from Moya. Secondly, same for a section of Rafa fans who claimed loss was "only due to injury".

 

[Pandaman]

Nadal is going to look a lot different next time he plays Djokovic. I definitely believe the “we will learn a lot from this match” quote.

Nonsense. They've played 58 times and there's been ample amount of time to "learn" a lot. People give this kind of stuff higher importance than it deserves to make the interim bearable. Reading quotes is always different than hearing them. Any player or coach would say "I'll learn a lot from this". Stop making it something special. Sinner said that about Nadal going into this year's FO and he proved otherwise. Sometimes there's just nothing you can do; Novak's best is just better than Nadal's.

I fully expect Nadal to focus on flattening out his serve and groundstrokes, a la, 2010 USO, for the summer HC swing. He hit some 130mph bombs that tourney, and that's the best I've seen Nadal play there. He got a tired and inexperienced Novak in the final, but that doesn't take away from how he played. It wasn't sustainable back then, but as he's gotten older and can't play for as long (see: AO QFs and FO SFs), it makes sense. Opponents won't know what's coming.

 

[Jai]

Nonsense. They've played 58 times and there's been ample amount of time to "learn" a lot. People give this kind of stuff higher importance than it deserves to make the interim bearable. Reading quotes is always different than hearing them. Any player or coach would say "I'll learn a lot from this". Stop making it something special. Sinner said that about Nadal going into this year's FO and he proved otherwise. Sometimes there's just nothing you can do; Novak's best is just better than Nadal's.

I fully expect Nadal to focus on flattening out his serve and groundstrokes, a la, 2010 USO, for the summer HC swing. That is the best I've seen Nadal play there. He got a tired and inexperienced Novak in the final, but that doesn't take away from how he played that tourney. It wasn't sustainable back then, but as he's gotten older and can't play for as long (see: AO QFs and FO SFs), it makes sense. Opponents won't know what's coming.

It's like game theory. Undeniably team Rafa will try to improve a chink that was exposed at this last match. Equally undeniably, team Novak will be keeping an eagle eye out for Rafa's play in the hc swing, and will evolve a game plan for that. They have played 58 times, they know how to anticipate and counter each other's games. Question is, who is better placed , and more of a clutch mentality to bring their best to the court, and counter the other's best on that day. On present form and indication, I would say Novak has the definite edge. Let's see.

 

[The_Order]

Good interview by Sam Winchester. Capy will be ready by USO hopefully

That said, I must say that I am absolutely baffled by the decision to play all clay tune ups.

Yeah I think he needs to skip Barcelona and Madrid but probably won't skip both due to those events being in his home country.

But at least Madrid from now on needs to be skipped.

 

[Deleted member 770948]

I agree skip Madrid, especially because adjusting to the attitude forces him to train very hard in a short space of time.
Having said that........if Nadal coverts the (very winnable) Set Point in Djokovic's last service game of the 3rd Set........or if Nadal doesn't miss the easy volley in the tiebreaker........we probably wouldn't be worried about exhaustion.
Tsitsipas already has to fight like crazy to beat Nadal at the AO........so I don't think he'd hurt Nadal much in a RG Final.

 

[D.Nalby12]

Djokovic winning 3 games in first set proved crucial. Had it been a bagel or breadstick set - Nadal would raise his level further in second and it would get very difficult for Novak to come back.

 

[D.Nalby12]

You've to appreciate Moya for his clarity and honesty. Djokovic' level was so high from very beginning. Nadal didn't expect that. After one hour of play it was clear Nadal no longer could match his level. Errors started leaking and after that Djokovic kept extending rallies targeting Nadal backhand all the time.

 

[mwym]

You've to appreciate Moya for his clarity and honesty. Djokovic' level was so high from very beginning. Nadal didn't expect that.

Djokovic tested the gameplan in Rome, 2nd set, but did not go full throttle in 3rd. He saved it for PC, and it was close in 3rd. But even if Nadal prevailed in 3rd, Nadal would not last next 2 sets as we saw in 4th with Djokovic's fitness fresh as a daisy compared to Nadal's.

 

[Forehanderer]

Honest assessment from Moya

 

[Deleted member 771911]

Two of the big 3 can't play full seasons. It's really Big 1. Time to wake up. That coffee ain't gonna smell itself.

 

[Hitman]

Wasn't there a gleeful thread few days back, declaring Rafa was injured after all? there were a few posters who went to town on that, claiming that as the ONLY reason Rafa lost.

Moya seems to pretty much indicate no injury.....physical and mental exhaustion is not an "injury". BTW, curious how Guy Forget's statement on "bit of pain in the foot", got blown up into a major injury claim.

If we've learned anything about irony from the last 2 slams - at the AO, Novak falls hard on court, in full view of cameras - plays subsequent rounds quite hindered - people still debate and debate and deny he is injured. Whereas injury gets claimed for Rafa at RG even when he himself has not said he is injured at all. Tennis forums can be crazy!

True.

 

[maratha_warrior]

Yes, the tennis fans who saw it all unfold already knew that. Rafa was simply burned out from playing too much, for his age he shouldn't have played everything under the sun the way he did, his legs were gone at the end.

Wasn't there a gleeful thread few days back, declaring Rafa was injured after all? there were a few posters who went to town on that, claiming that as the ONLY reason Rafa lost.

Moya seems to pretty much indicate no injury.....physical and mental exhaustion is not an "injury". BTW, curious how Guy Forget's statement on "bit of pain in the foot", got blown up into a major injury claim.

If we've learned anything about irony from the last 2 slams - at the AO, Novak falls hard on court, in full view of cameras - plays subsequent rounds quite hindered - people still debate and debate and deny he is injured. Whereas injury gets claimed for Rafa at RG even when he himself has not said he is injured at all. Tennis forums can be crazy!

Exactly. That is why I don't believe in " Objective poster" theory . Those who call themselves objective are biased AF .

I have seen few fans here refuse to believe Novak was injured even if his toe bleeds or his elbow bleeds in full public view , even if he falls down on court very badly . They keep laughing at it and make threads discussing for days that he was not injured .

But the same fans readily accept injury excuse of their favourite player after the player lost an important match . And the player only claims injury after the match is over . There were no visible signs of injury before or during the match. But these shameless fans totally want everyone to believe their favourite players/ God's excuses . Lol hypocrites

Ofcourse there are respectable fans in all fanbases .so we need to be respectful to the decent , respectful ones .

 

[MichaelNadal]

Exactly. That is why I don't believe in " Objective poster" theory . Those who call themselves objective are biased AF .

I have seen few fans here refuse to believe Novak was injured even if his toe bleeds or his elbow bleeds in full public view , even if he falls down on court very badly . They keep laughing at it and make threads discussing for days that he was not injured .

But the same fans readily accept injury excuse of their favourite player after the player lost an important match . And the player only claims injury after the match is over . There were no visible signs of injury before or during the match. But these shameless fans totally want everyone to believe their favourite players/ God's excuses . Lol hypocrites

Ofcourse there are respectable fans in all fanbases .so we need to be respectful to the decent , respectful ones .

I can admit this is a good post.

 

[maratha_warrior]

I can admit this is a good post.

Trolls believe their lies .
Posters claiming themselves as objective* sell their lies .
This is what I learnt from this forum lol .

Btw, I feel we all are emotional humans supporting our fav player passionately , and we can't be objective all the time and we do act emotionally sometimes lol .
Ofcourse we need to respect the respectful ones always .

 

[Spencer Gore]

rafa was always classy. But there was no Injury to begin with. That's why there is no mention of it anywhere

If there was no injury what was Forget saying he was being classy about?

 

[Forehanderer]

Exactly. That is why I don't believe in " Objective poster" theory . Those who call themselves objective are biased AF .

I have seen few fans here refuse to believe Novak was injured even if his toe bleeds or his elbow bleeds in full public view , even if he falls down on court very badly . They keep laughing at it and make threads discussing for days that he was not injured .

But the same fans readily accept injury excuse of their favourite player after the player lost an important match . And the player only claims injury after the match is over . There were no visible signs of injury before or during the match. But these shameless fans totally want everyone to believe their favourite players/ God's excuses . Lol hypocrites

Ofcourse there are respectable fans in all fanbases .so we need to be respectful to the decent , respectful ones .

Rare good post on TTW. I feel bad when any player including Rafa or Novak injure or bleed on court. If someone laughs at it, they should surrender their humanity cards before posting. I'm also not in favor of the chronic injury excuse being made after losing. So I may root against them but there is a line I don't cross. Every post here is just opinion and I don't treat anyone as "objective" in their theory or analysis. I know quite a few in TTW who claim to be so. I can only laugh at them

Edit: think of the devil and he appears before my post lol

 

[itrium84]

If there was no injury what was Forget saying he was being classy about?

About discomfort Rafa felt in 4th set.

 

[Terry Tibbs]

As Forget said, showing real class. Not blaming the injury. Rafa is a class act.

There was no injury.

 

[maratha_warrior]

Rare good post on TTW. I feel bad when any player including Rafa or Novak injure or bleed on court. If someone laughs at it, they should surrender their humanity cards before posting. I'm also not in favor of the chronic injury excuse being made after losing. So I may root against them but there is a line I don't cross. Every post here is just opinion and I don't treat anyone as "objective" in their theory or analysis. I know quite a few in TTW who claim to be so. I can only laugh at them

Edit: think of the devil and he appears before my post lol

Same here .
I don't think I can ever be objective here because we are emotional beings at the end of the day and we all support our fav player emotionally..
We can be respectful . Thats is in our hands .

 

[Spencer Gore]

There was no injury.

Then what was Forget referring to when he said Nadal showed class by not mentioning it?

 

[Forehanderer]

Then what was Forget referring to when he said Nadal showed class by not mentioning it?

Forget was referring to the butthurt that Rafaholics like you felt that day when Rafa got pasted by Djokovic. Forget is telling you to forget about it and live in your la la land.

 

[Forehanderer]

.

 

[Hitman]

Forget was referring to the butthurt that Rafaholics like you felt that day when Rafa got pasted by Djokovic. Forget is telling you to forget about it and live in your la la land.

Sad really.

 

[Spencer Gore]

Forget was referring to the butthurt that Rafaholics like you felt that day when Rafa got pasted by Djokovic. Forget is telling you to forget about it and live in your la la land.

But he wasn't doing that, because he is a professional helping run a slam tournament, not a juvenile using phrases like "butthurt".

if you can't, or are unwilling to answer the question, that's fine. But don't pretend you're having a serious conversation about tennis.

So, for those more interested in facts than gifs and cartoon names:

Nadal had a foot injury in Roland-Garros semi-final against Djokovic, reveals Forget

Tournament director Guy Forget said on Sunday that Nadal had “a little pain in his foot” during his semi-final loss to Novak Djokovic

www.google.co.uk

 

[DRII]

Nonsense. They've played 58 times and there's been ample amount of time to "learn" a lot. People give this kind of stuff higher importance than it deserves to make the interim bearable. Reading quotes is always different than hearing them. Any player or coach would say "I'll learn a lot from this". Stop making it something special. Sinner said that about Nadal going into this year's FO and he proved otherwise. Sometimes there's just nothing you can do; Novak's best is just better than Nadal's.

I fully expect Nadal to focus on flattening out his serve and groundstrokes, a la, 2010 USO, for the summer HC swing. He hit some 130mph bombs that tourney, and that's the best I've seen Nadal play there. He got a tired and inexperienced Novak in the final, but that doesn't take away from how he played. It wasn't sustainable back then, but as he's gotten older and can't play for as long (see: AO QFs and FO SFs), it makes sense. Opponents won't know what's coming.

2013 redo would be much better for Nadal than 2010 USA hardcourts and is actually feasible!

Nadal does not have to rethink his game to beat Djokovic, but he definitely needs energy, endurance, and a forehand that penetrates and is accurate which was not the case in the RG semi due to a numb wrist.

 

[Hitman]

Discomfort at the end of match is not injury, and the fact Forget highlights the end of match tells us Nadal was fine for the meat of the match, by the end, it was clear he was tired so feeling discomfort only underlined the point that he was on his way out anyway.

 

[SonnyT]

Nadal is going to look a lot different next time he plays Djokovic. I definitely believe the “we will learn a lot from this match” quote.

But what can they do? They've played each other 56 times, there's not much that one can do that the other hasn't seen. His biggest problem right now against Djokovic is stamina, and how do you train a 35 year old player to have more of it?

At '20 RG, Djokovic couldn't get any kind of rhythm, and Nadal won. At '21 RG, both found their game, and Djokovic won.

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Looking doubtful IMO.
This really could be the end. The younger players are getting stronger and RG was really the last bastion. Next year there will be Djokovic, a peaking Titspas, improved Sinner, mentally strong Zverev, Medvedev, Rublev etc etc.

I agree it’s tough for him now. The hardest ever point in his career. I feel he needs a strong showing at us open and has to try win RG 2022. If he doesn’t get either then yeah it’s not looking good. Still won’t write him off yet though but yeah the fear factor from tour is diminishing and Rafa showing his age more and more.

 

[zagor]

Exactly. That is why I don't believe in " Objective poster" theory . Those who call themselves objective are biased AF .

I have seen few fans here refuse to believe Novak was injured even if his toe bleeds or his elbow bleeds in full public view , even if he falls down on court very badly . They keep laughing at it and make threads discussing for days that he was not injured .

But the same fans readily accept injury excuse of their favourite player after the player lost an important match . And the player only claims injury after the match is over . There were no visible signs of injury before or during the match. But these shameless fans totally want everyone to believe their favourite players/ God's excuses . Lol hypocrites

Ofcourse there are respectable fans in all fanbases .so we need to be respectful to the decent , respectful ones .

Oh yeah, quite often even more so than the average honest fanboy. 99% of the TTW is extremely biased in one way or another, just the way it is.

 

[Born_to_slice]

before the SF, I read an interview in which the same Moya claimed Rafa was better prepared for this RG than last year. Really?! He must have been watching different Rafa...

Difference was in Djokovic level, which was atrocious in RG 20 final. Nadal was prepared as good as he could be.That's why he made minced meat of Sinner and Schwartzman (once Diego's exceptionally high level dropped).