Federer have won slams on Grass, Rebound Ace, plexicushion, DecoTurf, and Clay.
Toni Nadal : Rafael Nadal will definitely win 19 slams thanks to Roland Garros
- Thread starter Checkmate
- Start date
Stratsworth
Rookie
So by this reasoning you also support the banning of poly strings and composite racquets, correct?
tennis4me
Hall of Fame
This eternal debate of GOAT will never be settled between the two fan bases. Unless there's an official GOAT definition from ATP, it will just be individual's interpretation. It's all relative to one's definition.
As a fan of one, but not a hater of the other (just less of a fan of the other), I consider them both GOAT in their own unique ways. Always enjoy watching both even if I may be rooting only for one of them. Just glad that they're both still around playing. My $.02
As a fan of one, but not a hater of the other (just less of a fan of the other), I consider them both GOAT in their own unique ways. Always enjoy watching both even if I may be rooting only for one of them. Just glad that they're both still around playing. My $.02
Try to be more accurate rather than being deceptive.
Federer
Grass - 8
Rebound Ace - 3
Plexicushion - 2
DecoTurf - 5
Clay - 1
Nadal
Grass - 2
Rebound Ace - 0
Plexicushion - 1
DecoTurf - 3
Clay - 10
Interesting goalpost shift. He's gone from being coompletely "helpless" indoors to being a top 10 player indoors. Okay...
It's just a condition, and it's never been held as a criteria for GOAT, aside from desperate Federer fans who see the slam record falling to Nadal, and want to give more importance to everything else Fed has done.
It's just making up nonsense. Olympic Singles Gold has been an important target for champions for many years now. THe fact that it's called the Golden Slam (4 Grand Slams + Olympic Singles gold) is an argument that Olympic singles is actually the most important tournament outside the slams in terms of legacy. Nadal has it. Fed desperately wanted it, but never will. Hole in his resume. Federer can't be GOAT without Olympic singles gold.
I'm not stupid enough to really claim that, but i do believe if Roger had Olympic Singles Gold and Rafa didn't, Federer fans would be touting that as a big "hole" in Rafa's resume.
At the end of the day it's about the slams, baby. Not WTF's or Masters (where Nadal holds the record) or even Olympics. The slams is the number every single casual fan will remember when GOAT is talked about.
TennisATP
Professional
Nadal wasn't winning any slams outside of RG pre-2007 as he was not in his full prime yet so that rebound ace stat is irrelevant to him. In tennis there are 3 surfaces: clay, grass and hardcourt. Stop being butthurt, nobody said that Nadal won on decoturf last week except you, they said hardcourt
donquijote
G.O.A.T.
Impossible. Only four in one year.
metsman
G.O.A.T.
to be fair, Nadal's SD is lower if you go by surface but it's a bit disingenuous to consider AO and USO as one surface considering how differently they at least used to play.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
... set by someone else, when you are 31.
Even the spanish-writing media think that the Nadal has no brain of his own.
"I don't read books" -Roger Federer, contemporary philosopher.
VolleyHelena
Semi-Pro
Jeez you're pathetic.
What I find interesting is that Toni brought up matching the Federer 19 Majors, as well as Moya in another interview saying they need to correct the latest head2head results with Federer. So it's obviously something on the mind of the Nadal camp. It's not a bad thing, but I just chuckle when I hear the athletes mouth these platitudes that they don't consider such things. Of course they are more than aware of all these stats and records...
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
So true. . What's more, it could be "at 22 too."
That said, . a polite question (just curious): . why is it that you referred to one player by his last name and another player by his first name ? ?
All of us are really embarrassing ourselves here.
Do all of you realize that this question of better slam spread is not a subjective opinion ..simple statistical
This is basic high school math. Come on, people.
Fed's data set of 8,5,5,1 has a S.D. value of 2.487468.
RNext question.
Establishing once and for all that ""MY favorite MALE tennis idol is better than YOUR favorite MALE tennis idol" should be child's play: . just throw out a couple of applied math foundations along with some linear equations, exponents, polynomials, logarithms ...what have you ....in addition to a lot of sundry quadratic bullshlt. . wowwee..
Again, mere child's play - why in heaven's name are we continuing to embarrass ourselves here?
good thread: . * 4 honks
Share This Page
Last edited:
What?
RG vs Wimbledon 10 > 8
AO vs USO 5 > 3
USO vs Wimbledon 5 > 2
AO vs RG 1 = 1
Fed's distributions is better, and he's better at 3/4 slams.
Rafa was very much in his prime since 2005. Gonzalez and Hewitt were too good for him on Rebound Ace. Blake, Youzny, Ferrer too good for him on Decoturf.Nadal wasn't winning any slams outside of RG pre-2007 as he was not in his full prime yet so that rebound ace stat is irrelevant to him. In tennis there are 3 surfaces: clay, grass and hardcourt. Stop being butthurt, nobody said that Nadal won on decoturf last week except you, they said hardcourt
Some will never learn...
Less than 1.5 year ago Roger was still only 3 slams ahead, yet it was all about Djoker beating the slam rec. Many people couldnt see Djoker losing the nr1 rank before 2018, and gave him more than 50% of beating Feds slam count. Now it's all about Rafa.
When someone is playing great and winning for a while, it seems like they will win forever. But it suddenly stops. For Rafa it could be 16, 17 or who knows, maybe 20. I think it is highly unlikely he will win 4 more slams at his age.
Less than 1.5 year ago Roger was still only 3 slams ahead, yet it was all about Djoker beating the slam rec. Many people couldnt see Djoker losing the nr1 rank before 2018, and gave him more than 50% of beating Feds slam count. Now it's all about Rafa.
When someone is playing great and winning for a while, it seems like they will win forever. But it suddenly stops. For Rafa it could be 16, 17 or who knows, maybe 20. I think it is highly unlikely he will win 4 more slams at his age.
MugOpponent
Hall of Fame
I suspect Rafa will be hyper-motivated for Melbourne 2018, given last year and some other tough losses at that slam. In all likelihood he will be the no.1 seed and that's probably his best chance going forward for a non-RG slam.
I see four more slams(3 RG, 1 AO) for Rafa but who knows. I think Federer's path to another slam will be considerably more difficult with Djokovic coming back and other players emerging. I wouldn't bet against Federer but it's far from a lock that he gets to 20.
As far as the GOAT talk and surfaces, just remember that Nadal beat peak Federer at Wimbledon, whereas Federer never even came close to Nadal at Roland Garros.
I see four more slams(3 RG, 1 AO) for Rafa but who knows. I think Federer's path to another slam will be considerably more difficult with Djokovic coming back and other players emerging. I wouldn't bet against Federer but it's far from a lock that he gets to 20.
As far as the GOAT talk and surfaces, just remember that Nadal beat peak Federer at Wimbledon, whereas Federer never even came close to Nadal at Roland Garros.
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
Wow, you're sinking to a new low. Fed had 4 chances to win the Olympics, only 2x in his prime, Nadal has had 12 consecutive times now. You make the comparison then cover yourself by immediately backing out and saying you're not (but ''Federer fans would''), too much of a wuss to stand up for your statement.
Being overall GOAT is about being able to win in/on any condition. Keeping your head in the sand and ignoring that he cant win a SINGLE measly WTF in 12 tries doesnt make the fact go away.
ps yeah I was probably being generous comparing his indoor career to Berdych…I was trying to be nice...probably many journeymen have had as good or better results indoor than Rafa.
BlueClayGOAT
Semi-Pro
The Olympics gold needs a lot of luck to achieve as it comes around only once in 4 years. If a player happens to be at his/her peak in that particular year, he/she has a good chance. Else, it's an unnecessary knock on the resume despite everything else the player has achieved.
The WTF is played every year, and has the best concentration of talent of any tournament. It's also the biggest indoors tournament. Not winning the WTF even once despite getting a chance every year is more of an empty spot on the resume than not having an Olympics gold.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
He most certainly does. Sorry!
BlueClayGOAT
Semi-Pro
I realize that, but equating the 2 slams played across the world from each other and in different conditions is, as you say, a very misleading way to go about it.
BlueClayGOAT
Semi-Pro
This is an exercise in being deliberately obtuse.
If we are talking about even spread of slams, there's just a very simple, universally recognized method to do it, and that's what i demonstrated. I didn't say Fed was better or worse than Rafa because of it, just that he has a more even spread of Slams across surfaces.
I cannot believe there are educated people who say things like what you just did. Please read before commenting.
AngryBirds
Semi-Pro
Imagine if all those non-clay slams were played on clay instead. He could aim for 100 slams by the end of his career.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
At some point, racking up titles at just one slam is going to be subject to the law of diminishing returns.
I think ten titles at one slam (especially when you only average two each at the other three slams) is probably where we can draw that line, if it hasn't been passed already.
Not saying thirteen RG titles isn't impressive (Jesus Christ that would be monstrous), but as other posters have pointed out, tennis is played on three surfaces, not one. Fed may only have one RG title, but he sure is closer to overall GOAT considering all three surfaces than Rafa is.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think ten titles at one slam (especially when you only average two each at the other three slams) is probably where we can draw that line, if it hasn't been passed already.
Not saying thirteen RG titles isn't impressive (Jesus Christ that would be monstrous), but as other posters have pointed out, tennis is played on three surfaces, not one. Fed may only have one RG title, but he sure is closer to overall GOAT considering all three surfaces than Rafa is.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Federev
Legend
Yeah / I think this has merit.
But regardless of slam count it will be hard for Rafa to ever get out of Fed's shadow. He's 31, played his entire career in it - and Fed's still at it.
Fed's grace, genius on the court -especially at the super bowl of tennis (to most)... and Just as important to the masses - his charm and geniality off the court make him a world class celebrity that most people will always find more relatable as a sports hero.
I'm not saying that's fair, it's just the reality of it.
Case in point: Apart from steroids in MLB ( they've all done them), It's like Barry Bonds. Even when he became home run king it never rresonated with most people - he's not really relatable the way Mark Maguire or Sammy Sosa were.
Nadal is A LOT more enjoyable than BB ( and I find his tennis compelling and I like him). So this is hyperbole - an exaggeration for examples sake. But relative to Fed for Rafa - it will never come down to simply slams regardless in most people's minds.
Fed is 36 and more popular than ever, because of his personality and relatability as well as his tennis. Nadal doesn't really come to that level to most. And you can see it in any presser: Fed looks engaged and articulate and Rafa looks like he just wants to get the crap out of there.
Of course he has tons of fans as he should - but I would bet those folks are very committed solid tennis fans. Whereas Fed has those, but he's really transcended tennis now as a tennis ambassador. That's shows in charity events and marketing and magazine covers and David Foster Wallace articles.
Fed is the GOAT for a lot of people because his tennis excellene is supplemented by his charisma.
It would take a lot more than slams to change that.
(And don't get me started on poor Novak. He could win 25 slams and would probably still fail to get the credit he'd deserve).
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
get off your (lecturing) high horse and ......and maybe learn to take a harmless joke while you're at it
10,000 threads later...like I really lose a second of sleep about Fed vs Rafa, Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed ......10,000 threads later........Fed vs Rafa, Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed.....10,000 threads later...."I MUST RESPOND!!!" ....Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed.......10,000 threads later....like I really lose a second of sleep about Fed vs Rafa, Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed ......10,000 threads later... ..."I MUST RESPOND!!!" ... .....Fed vs Rafa, Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed.....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed
10,000 threads later...like I really lose a second of sleep about Fed vs Rafa, Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed ......10,000 threads later........Fed vs Rafa, Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed.....10,000 threads later...."I MUST RESPOND!!!" ....Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed.......10,000 threads later....like I really lose a second of sleep about Fed vs Rafa, Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed ......10,000 threads later... ..."I MUST RESPOND!!!" ... .....Fed vs Rafa, Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed.....10,000 threads later.......Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed vs Rafa vs Fed
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
This forum is a representation of the real world. Make a poll and ask if people would take Nadal as the GOAT at 19 majors
Take Away all his clay slams and Rafa with 6 slams is an ALL-TIME GREAT PLAYER!!!
I don't think Federer fans realise how insulting they are being towards greats of the game by continuing to play this card, and I wouldn't be surprised if more former legends started jumping back on Rafa's bandwagon for GOAT because of it. One more non-Clay slam and Rafa has matched John McEnroe's entire slam career. Acting as if that's a pitiful total, because he's the GOD OF CLAY and could win 13 on clay is basically spitting in the face of legends.Telling people like McEnroe that his career was worthless, and not worthy of legendary status.
This "too much clay" stuff is no longer a good look after this US Open win. He's won enough slams off clay for it not to be a factor. But people have been parroting that argument for so long that it's hard to let go. It's now a losing argument.
LOL!
This forum is nowhere near representative of the real world. It's full of hardcore fans with their own biases and agendas. You'd probably have to poll a non-tennis site with casual fans. Tell them the H2H (23-14) and have them on the same number of majors, I'm guessing most casual fans will say Nadal is GOAT.
DerekNoleFam1
Hall of Fame
Really depends on how long RG is "in the bank" for. (although another AO or USO is still possible)
Is there really no chance nobody else will step up on clay in the next 2-3 years, or Djoker can make a comeback and win it once more?
2017 has been a revelation, and his destruction of 2015 champion Stanimal in the RG final was an awesome display.
But another lull like the 2015-16 period, and there will be no time to come back and add more.
Is there really no chance nobody else will step up on clay in the next 2-3 years, or Djoker can make a comeback and win it once more?
2017 has been a revelation, and his destruction of 2015 champion Stanimal in the RG final was an awesome display.
But another lull like the 2015-16 period, and there will be no time to come back and add more.
BlueClayGOAT
Semi-Pro
Oh, but the reply to my post wasn't meant as a joke. It was a deliberate attempt to misrepresent a perfectly viable and simple way to answer something everyone was discussing.
X: *makes an assertion A*
Y: *shows that the assertion A is demonstrably false using a certain method M*
X: But Method M cannot prove assertion B, haha lol you're an idiot who doesn't understand tennis.
Y: of course it doesn't, it only holds for assertion A. Can't you read?
X: You're lecturing from a high horse and you can't take a joke.
Somehow, you seem to think Y is the villain in that conversation. Inexplicable.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
So you want a poll to be done with ignorant folks rather than nerds of the sport ? What logic is that ?
tennis2017
Rookie
Nope. 6 majors of clay automatically puts him as a hall of gamer. Equal to Becker and edberg.
His clay count elevates him to overall goat. A third USO was MASSIVE. It was beyond extreme in importance.
i think Fed won't win any slam next year, especially that being 36 is not easy on the body for the men's game where BO5 sets at slams take a toll. Also you have to factor in the return of Djokovic, Murray and Wawrinka. Rafa has a good chance to win FO again and ok chances to win AO or USO.
Crisstti
Legend
I'd definitely go with the second option. He's saying they'll get the chance to win other(s) non RG slam(s). I'd translate it as ""We'll reach Federer's 19 Grand Slams. I'm confident we'll win some other Roland Garros and some other slam".
Good thing indoor is not a surface then! lol
But as Octogon said, he's far from "helpless" on it.
Yep. Rafa and Toni aren't the same person. It's Rafa who'd never say this.
Lol yeah, I agree. I remember a Nadal interview from a while back where he outright said that he always said (in interviews) he didn't think of records and tennis history, but that of course he did think about it.
What's the logic of claiming a site full of sport nerds is representative of the "real world"? It isn't.
In the real word, casual fans matter. Once they believe something, it becomes real. That's why sports journalists work so hard to appeal to them, to tell them this guy or that guy is GOAT.
Crisstti
Legend
Anyway, the attitude from some Fed fans on this thread is kinda funy. It's like they think he's got to 19 slams already or that it's a sure thing he will. It's far from it. He could get there, he could stay where he is. It remains to be seen. So no need to panic (yet).
It is interesting to see what the arguments would be if they would be tied(ish) in slams. Like "RG doesn't count", etc. Some other more reasonable arguments of course.
It is interesting to see what the arguments would be if they would be tied(ish) in slams. Like "RG doesn't count", etc. Some other more reasonable arguments of course.
Crisstti
Legend
Quoted for truth...
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Logic of taking a poll here is to get representation of what real tennis fans and nerds all over the world think about who the GOAT is rather than some ignorant folks who tunes in occasionally during set 5 of one match or who sees Wikipedia to know who got more wins. This forum also has few players who play at a decent level, coaches and historians . Their view is more relevant than some ignoramus
But bias is an issue with hardcores. if there are more hardcore Federer fans on this site, than hardcore Nadal or Djokovic fans, then Federer is often likely to win a poll here. it's long been claimed that this site is owned by backers of Federer as well.
You ain't gonna get a fair and unbiased poll on a site like this.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
This is a myth propagated by Fed haters that the forum is Fed biased
We have seen Rafa fans from long time back still continue to be active here. The only difference is Fed fans stay here through thick and thin while lot of Rafa fans vanish the moment loses start mounting and come back when he wins a title
uscwang
Hall of Fame
How about breaking it down by surface type, as on hard court, clay, grass?
Fed: 10, 1, 8 has a sample SD of 4.725816
Nadal: 4, 10, 2 has a sample SD of 4.163332
Next question.
Last edited:
tennis4me
Hall of Fame
The only real GOAT to me ...
Even in 'real' GOAT, there are different types of GOATs like here:
They're both GOATs - both special and unique - one like the mountains as its preferred "surface", the other one doesn't.
Appropriately, the 1st one is actually "Swiss Goats", and the second one are "Spanish Goats", which coincidentally have horns like a bull - but, they seem to like grass more than clay, though.
Even in 'real' GOAT, there are different types of GOATs like here:
They're both GOATs - both special and unique - one like the mountains as its preferred "surface", the other one doesn't.
Appropriately, the 1st one is actually "Swiss Goats", and the second one are "Spanish Goats", which coincidentally have horns like a bull - but, they seem to like grass more than clay, though.
Crisstti
Legend
Lol no.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
It is as biased as the general population outside of the forum.
________________________________
"It is not cheating (arguable at best). It is merely breaking the rules."
Hola!
Crisstti
Legend
lol what does that have to do with what we were discussing?.
Way more Federer fans on this forum. It's pretty obvious.
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
Two years is a long time, and Nadal might well decline significantly by 2019. But if he only declines slightly, then I just don't see Thiem beating him at Roland Garros. At 24, Thiem probably only has marginal improvement left in him, and he's some way off right now. Zverev might improve quite a bit more, but I just don't think he's going to end up at his best on clay. I really don't envisage anyone except perhaps a resurgent Djokovic stopping Nadal for the next couple of years at RG if he maintains his form and fitness.
I really don't like Nadal at all. But that's orthogonal to the question of whether I think he'll win many more titles. Pessimistic anti-Nadalistas will likely come to the same conclusion here as optimistic members of the *************.
Similar threads
