What's up with the slice?

[Dolgopolov85]

We saw today/yesterday (depending on your time zone) that Vinci used the slice to great effect against Serena. More surprisingly Serena did not handle the shot as well as a player of her caliber would have been expected to. Vinci is in her 30s. Pennetta who also plays a good slice is also in her 30s. But from among the younger players, only Radwanska uses it well (sadly one of the few shots that she uses very effectively against top players!); I am guessing Bencic too. Bouchard doesn't have a slice, Halep for a player of her diminutive stature seems to prefer ball bashing. Likewise Keys. Is the slice in danger of dying out, especially in WTA? By the by, ATP looks better mainly because you have lots of late 20s-early/mid 30s players at the top. Once they leave the stage, the slice could be in danger at the ATP too. Hopefully though, the young guns watch the top guys use it to great effect and learn from them to add it to their repertoire.

Has coaching gone wrong? I know that my coach never does any slice drills though he does tell us to use the slice from time to time instead of trying to go for topspin groundstrokes. But when doing forehand/backhand drills, he will admonish us if we slice it and ask us to try to make a shot. Everybody in our group uses the slice but I wonder what happens at the junior level if there is too much emphasis on topspin. There is also an unfortunate perception that the slice is a weak/sissy shot which can easily be targeted. It is anything but, if executed well, and is a very reliable and versatile shot and its length is much easier to disguise.

Anyhow, I will wind up my rant here. Your thoughts? Does the slice face extinction in the WTA?

 

[Chadillac]

Slice is very effective if u can take the next shot on the rise. Keeping it low makes the opponent arc their shot more to get net clearenece and depth. An attacking player can volley that shot or pound it if it lands short.

While doing drills you are drills, so your coach isnt wrong, shot selection and mixing it up strategically doesnt apply. He wants to see you work hard and focus on your number 1. The ball is in a good spot, no need to slice.

Players prep breaks down over coarse of a good ralley, drills are designed to test your limits.

Wta and slice dont go together, they use lighter balls for a reason.

 

[BreakPoint]

The slice is an awesome shot. Hopefully, it wil never disappear.

Nicolescu also troubled Serena with it earlier this year.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Yeah, I know why he doesn't let us hit slices during drills but then there should be more slice-focused drills also to improve the shot. Now that I think of it, I will ask him if that's possible, he's open minded enough that he will take it on board if it's worthwhile according to him. Yeah, WTA and slice don't seem to go together these days but the previous ATG before Serena, Graf, used to almost exclusively hit slices on the BH wing. Sabatini used it a lot too. I am surprised that a shot that was once so popular in WTA has all but disappeared now.

 

[Chadillac]

The best drill i could think of for you to recommend is you starting at on the duece side like your returning serve. Have the instructor feed the ball to the ad side so your forced to slice and play out the point from there against him or someone else.

Its your number 2 shot in most cases, its hard to simulate its usage. Starting the point from the slice would be a great way for him to teach its advantages. The ball stays in the air longer, giving you time to get back and stays low so they have to roll it. Neutralizing the feed will be the goal in this drill. Getting a reset

Its a very taxing drill so have a few people for it in line for the next feed, it flows nicely.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

The best drill i could think of for you to recommend is you starting at on the duece side like your returning serve. Have the instructor feed the ball to the ad side so your forced to slice and play out the point from there against him or someone else.

Its your number 2 shot in most cases, its hard to simulate its usage. Starting the point from the slice would be a great way for him to teach its advantages. The ball stays in the air longer, giving you time to get back and stays low so they have to roll it. Neutralizing the feed will be the goal in this drill. Getting a reset

Great tip, will try this, thanks much.

 

[Chadillac]

Great tip, will try this, thanks much.

Start winning and your gonna get some crappy feeds

 

[Faker]

Yeah, I know why he doesn't let us hit slices during drills but then there should be more slice-focused drills also to improve the shot. Now that I think of it, I will ask him if that's possible, he's open minded enough that he will take it on board if it's worthwhile according to him. Yeah, WTA and slice don't seem to go together these days but the previous ATG before Serena, Graf, used to almost exclusively hit slices on the BH wing. Sabatini used it a lot too. I am surprised that a shot that was once so popular in WTA has all but disappeared now.

Definitely ask your coach for slice drills if you want. My coach does slice drills with me every now and then and it helps a lot. But he also doesn't like me hitting slice when doing pure groundstroke drills. We don't always 100% get to a ball. Slicing somewhat encourages this since with a topspin backhand you can't really be immensely out of position and still make the shots(look at how many times Djokovic suddenly just fall off balance or looks awkward when slicing compared to the times he looks awkward or off balance when doing a topspin backhand). With a slice you obviously have more reach than a regular 2hbh so I could be more lazy with my positioning on where to hit the shot. Obviously our coach doesn't want to encourage us to be off balance or out of position so they make us at least try to get in position better for 2hbhs.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

The problem was Serena was trying to return Vinci's slices with double handers, trying to force the pace. With each shot, her length shortened, allowing Vinci to advance up the court and win the point. Vinci used this pattern in a few rallies just off the highlights. Fed or Nole generally respond to slices with...ANOTHER slice. If you can't make your own pace, don't give the opponent any to work with either. I am pretty sure Navratilova would have used the tactic. Actually lots of Vinci's plays were very old school. She even chip charged Serena once though she ended up losing the point.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Definitely ask your coach for slice drills if you want. My coach does slice drills with me every now and then and it helps a lot. But he also doesn't like me hitting slice when doing pure groundstroke drills. We don't always 100% get to a ball. Slicing somewhat encourages this since with a topspin backhand you can't really be immensely out of position and still make the shots(look at how many times Djokovic suddenly just fall off balance or looks awkward when slicing compared to the times he looks awkward or off balance when doing a topspin backhand). With a slice you obviously have more reach than a regular 2hbh so I could be more lazy with my positioning on where to hit the shot. Obviously our coach doesn't want to encourage us to be off balance or out of position so they make us at least try to get in position better for 2hbhs.

Also that one of the guys in our group has started slicing compulsively, using it where he ought to hit double handers. I mean balls that are right in the slot. On the other hand, I would like to hone the slice into more of a weapon so I could use some drills. I use the slice well on returns (I hit a one hander) but in rallies would like more consistency.

 

[Chadillac]

Also that one of the guys in our group has started slicing compulsively, using it where he ought to hit double handers. I mean balls that are right in the slot. On the other hand, I would like to hone the slice into more of a weapon so I could use some drills. I use the slice well on returns (I hit a one hander) but in rallies would like more consistency.

Is he really good? He could be trying to work point strat or setting up his forehand, sometimes your in the forehand mood.

As far as a wep, the slice is a 2 step, u take advantage of the next shot like steffi did. Flattening out the next shot at the peak of its bounce, if it drops you gotta roll it, so be ready to move in if your using it offensively.

 

[beltsman]

Slice takes some skill, and current WTA players don't have skill, so there's your answer. Anyone with a decent slice would destroy Serena and expose her movement, as long as they have SOME power to back it up. Radwanska has the touch but not the power. Hence why Serena would get destroyed by any male player.

Just short slice Serena's BH and then take her wide to the FH. Easy.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Is he really good? He could be trying to work point strat or setting up his forehand, sometimes your in the forehand mood.

As far as a wep, the slice is a 2 step, u take advantage of the next shot like steffi did. Flattening out the next shot at the peak of its bounce, if it drops you gotta roll it, so be ready to move in if your using it offensively.

He's not. In fact there was a doubles set where both I and my partner just kept going to his backhand, knowing he would try to slice it from all sorts of horrible positions and lose the point. Since then, he's tried to curtail the habit. It's just that it APPEARS to be easy to set up a slice until you realise you still need to get weight behind the shot unless you are hitting it from mid court or near the net. He has a good double hander so it's a habit he needs to shake.

Yeah, the idea is to use it to buy time to move in and finish at the net. I can't say my volleys are awesome but I nevertheless like to move in and attempt a volley. It won't come unless I keep trying it in practice sets. So far I tend to struggle when I have premeditated a slice which I intend to follow into the net. I need to be mindful of completing the shot even as I keep moving forward.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Good insight about Federer and Djokovic. The difference is, Da Vinci backhand slices all the time! There's no way Serena's going to drain herself by getting into a slice war. I honestly think playing a pusher is less frustrating than someone who slices every single damn time. lol

Pam Shriver was a notorious slicer who slice and dice on both forehand and backhand almost every time I believe, and she made a great doubles career out of it. She also did fairly well in Singles but she wasn't very athletic unfortunately. That was the difference between Pam Shriver and Steffi Graf. Steffi was a gazelle that utilizes the backhand slice as one of many tools in her toolbox. For Pam Shriver, that was her only tool - along with serve and volleying.

That's true, which is precisely why I am interested in honing that shot. Well, Serena could have still sliced it back and looked for an opening to move to the net as we are discussing in this thread. Maybe she was wary of taking the net against a good net player like Vinci but that was probably her best bet.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Slice takes some skill, and current WTA players don't have skill, so there's your answer. Anyone with a decent slice would destroy Serena and expose her movement, as long as they have SOME power to back it up. Radwanska has the touch but not the power. Hence why Serena would get destroyed by any male player.

Just short slice Serena's BH and then take her wide to the FH. Easy.

After this match, I am indeed completely convinced on this point. I was quite disappointed by her tactics against Vinci.

 

[Shroud]

Doesnt matter what shots the WTA use, LeeD still beats them!

IMHO slice is the natural causality of the 2hander.

Rare you find a 2 hander who can really slice effectively. Said another way, Feds slice is way better than Jokers.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

^^^ Agreed but Djoke also hangs tough in the slice exchanges, slices it back instead of trying to force the pace. I think Stepanek has a pretty good slice for being a double handed player. He is a real oddity that way, likes to serves and volley and is a doubles specialist but hits a double hander.

 

[beltsman]

Radwanksa does have touch and excellent drop shots. But her style is not exactly similar to Da Vinci.

Da Vinci has won all 4 Grand Slam in Doubles so her volleying skills are superior to Radwanska, whom is mostly a baseliner returner. Both are generally weak players with weak serves but it seems Da Vinci has a little more pop in her forehand while Radwanska makes excellent use of angles.

A slice alone won't beat Serena. But Da Vinci used plenty of combination tactics to help dictate the rallies. Maybe Sharapova, Azarenka, and Halep can learn a thing or two from this match.

Yeah, I said, you need to be able to hit a good slice and follow it up with some decent power, and yes, finish at the net.

WTA players can generally do 1/3, while ATP players can do 3/3 in their sleep.

 

[beltsman]

After this match, I am indeed completely convinced on this point. I was quite disappointed by her tactics against Vinci.

The Dog would make Serena look like a 4.0 player.

 

[roger presley]

Yeah, I said, you need to be able to hit a good slice and follow it up with some decent power, and yes, finish at the net.

WTA players can generally do 1/3, while ATP players can do 3/3 in their sleep.

Agree.

 

[nguyentuanson16792]

Vinci has a very good slice and good touch, she can return Serena Serve very easy. THe great thing of being one hander

 

[Jaitock1991]

I think that higher bouncing surfaces have contributed to the slice losing its effectiveness. It doesn't skid like it used to do. If not hit perfectly, the ball will set up for the opponent to attack. Couple that up with the fact that modern racquet technology allow the players to produce heavy top spin on even
the lowest of balls, and it's easy to understand why many players prefer not to use it unless they have to.

I find it strange that Serena was so paralyzed by it tbh. I'd expect her to do better than that...

 

[SpinToWin]

The slice is one very effective shot if used to full effect, particularly if you mix up the length and are capable of playing the short knifed slice, which draws the opponent into an incredibly awkward position.

 

[sportsfan1]

While the slice was effective, I still think that Serena was tight as a drum (Vinci also said she saw more nerves on Serena's side, even though Serena denied it in her presser later), and a hypothetical repeat of the match without the slam pressure goes Serena's way. Vinci also played quite well from the forehand side.

 

[thomasferrett]

Everyone is a monotonous 2hbh ball-bashing machine on the WTA, and it looks like the ATP will descend into that once the older guys at the top start retiring.

The 1hbh can do two things better than the 2hbh - and these two things are on the opposing sides of the tennis spectrum. Depending on what type of 1hbh you have, it can do variety better than a 2hbh (see Federer), or it can have more brutal force than a 2hbh when you want to attack (see Wawrinka).

2hbh is kind of in the middle, stuck hitting boring, steady, moderately hard shots with hardly any variation.

 

[tennisdad40]

We saw today/yesterday (depending on your time zone) that Vinci used the slice to great effect against Serena. More surprisingly Serena did not handle the shot as well as a player of her caliber would have been expected to. Vinci is in her 30s. Pennetta who also plays a good slice is also in her 30s. But from among the younger players, only Radwanska uses it well (sadly one of the few shots that she uses very effectively against top players!); I am guessing Bencic too. Bouchard doesn't have a slice, Halep for a player of her diminutive stature seems to prefer ball bashing. Likewise Keys. Is the slice in danger of dying out, especially in WTA? By the by, ATP looks better mainly because you have lots of late 20s-early/mid 30s players at the top. Once they leave the stage, the slice could be in danger at the ATP too. Hopefully though, the young guns watch the top guys use it to great effect and learn from them to add it to their repertoire.

Has coaching gone wrong? I know that my coach never does any slice drills though he does tell us to use the slice from time to time instead of trying to go for topspin groundstrokes. But when doing forehand/backhand drills, he will admonish us if we slice it and ask us to try to make a shot. Everybody in our group uses the slice but I wonder what happens at the junior level if there is too much emphasis on topspin. There is also an unfortunate perception that the slice is a weak/sissy shot which can easily be targeted. It is anything but, if executed well, and is a very reliable and versatile shot and its length is much easier to disguise.

Anyhow, I will wind up my rant here. Your thoughts? Does the slice face extinction in the WTA?

For hand slice and backhand slice are rarely used or taught at the junior level. Y? I heard one coach say it's a lazy weak shot.. but I replied "wouldn't that depend on how you use it? Forhand/back slice is a great swith pace shot and can be a offense weapon when taught right.. I teach my to load up with 2 hand back and switch to one slice/drop shot from the baseline .

 

[Dolgopolov85]

^^^ Yeah, that seems to be the perception that's taken root. I agree in a sense; as I cited the example of a guy in our group who slices when he shouldn't because he's not slicing right. But at least once the juniors have started hitting decent topspin shots, it's time to teach them the slice too. If the tour is struggling so much with the slice, the girl who combines a great slice with good topspin shots a la Graf could have a great future.

 

[tennisdad40]

^^^ Yeah, that seems to be the perception that's taken root. I agree in a sense; as I cited the example of a guy in our group who slices when he shouldn't because he's not slicing right. But at least once the juniors have started hitting decent topspin shots, it's time to teach them the slice too. If the tour is struggling so much with the slice, the girl who combines a great slice with good topspin shots a la Graf could have a great future.

Consistency is key. Low margin of error.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Interesting to see that Pennetta countered Vinci's slice by taking off the pace but giving more air and ensuring she got good depth on her shots. She also used the forecourt more effectively than Serena and was quick to pounce on the short slice. The match didn't quite rise up to its potential with Vinci fading away in the second set but it was still thoughtful tennis of a kind that's rare to see in WTA these days. Thank you Italy!

 

[longnt80]

Serena beat herself, not because of Vinci's slices. If all it take to beat Serena is slices then they'd do it already. I bet next time if they'd meet again, Serena would straight set Vinci even with slices or not.

Same with the men's game.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

One advantage that Pennetta had over Serena was experience. Pen and Vinci has known each other since 9 year olds so familiarity helps. I also notice Pennetta was patient with Vinci's slices, not trying too hard to force the issue. Da Vinci's slices also sat up most of the time. It didn't seem to have any mixture of sidespin to them... which could've made them more effective. Maybe Da Vinci's a little tired as well from playing a longer match the previous day.

Patient is a key virtue to playing against a slicer. it's like playing a pusher. That's probably why most players at the professional or club level don't enjoy playing against them.

Absolutely, patient, cool headed play did the job for Pennetta.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Serena beat herself, not because of Vinci's slices. If all it take to beat Serena is slices then they'd do it already. I bet next time if they'd meet again, Serena would straight set Vinci even with slices or not.

Same with the men's game.

Didn't say that all it takes is a slice to beat Serena and looking at the stats you will find Vinci acquitted herself well in other departments of the game as well. But the point anyhow is it is an option and a great one. And also not as easy to counter as people appear to presume these days.

 

[longnt80]

Didn't say that all it takes is a slice to beat Serena and looking at the stats you will find Vinci acquitted herself well in other departments of the game as well. But the point anyhow is it is an option and a great one. And also not as easy to counter as people appear to presume these days.

Slice still has its place. It's not gonna disappear. However, today the top spin is way better: technology helps create more spin, it is safer to hit top spin backhand and you likely get winner from it then from a slice. Slice will always be a defensive option. But being defensive won't win GS.

 

[roger presley]

Serena is playing her game and if it's not working,she in trouble. Penetta has plan A,B and probably C if she needs it.High spin balls on Vinci's backhand for example.

 

[NLBwell]

But being defensive won't win GS.

Works for Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray.