The Death of the Slice

[ppma]

Poly strings should make slicing itself easier yo

Interesting that this reply was the 37th.

 

[Zoid]

Two reasons:

1) Dying out of single-handers generally
2) My hunch: poly developed players hit more topspin OHBH's as juniors so the topspin single-handers are better today, but the slices are worse (Tsitsi and Shapo).

The shot still has its place as Evans/Federer/Lopez/Nadal show. Even Alcaraz has a great slice already and uses it well to change pace.

Evans is a slicing masterclass everytime you watch him play; approaching on the short CC slice or bringing deep two-handers up inside the baseline. If someone wants to work on it it pays off in certain conditions/vs certain opponents.

 

[Kralingen]

Two reasons:

1) Dying out of single-handers generally
2) My hunch: poly developed players hit more topspin OHBH's as juniors so the topspin single-handers are better today, but the slices are worse (Tsitsi and Shapo).

The shot still has its place as Evans/Federer/Lopez/Nadal show. Even Alcaraz has a great slice already and uses it well to change pace.

Evans is a slicing masterclass everytime you watch him play; approaching on the short CC slice or bringing deep two-handers up inside the baseline. If someone wants to work on it it pays off in certain conditions/vs certain opponents.

Do you feel it’s a concerted effort from coaches to de-emphasize the slice in youth tennis? Something this widespread must have underpinnings that go beyond a few players.

 

[ElChivoEspañol]

Nadal dismantled Medvedev from 2 sets down using slices just a year ago.

 

[socallefty]

2H BH players generally slice less than 1HBH players and that might explain why you see less slice during matches. Many of the modern 2HBH players have slices with very high spin rate (>4000 rpm) compared to those of the pre-poly days even though they use them less. I remember @JohnYandell writing about high speed video analysis of this. https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/avancedtennis/john_yandell/modern_pro_slice_1/

So, the less frequent use of the slice might just reflect the low % of 1HBH players on tour. I guess the 2HBH players strategically think that using high topspin drives is a better point-winning strategy offensively and use slice more for defense when they are limited for time. Unless they play more one-dimensional players like Sinner and Medvedev where varying rhythm might cause them to miss more from the baseline. The best in the world like Nadal, Djokovic and Alcaraz do use variety including slice more than many of their 2HBH peers like Medvedev, Ruud, Sinner, Rublev, FAA etc.

 

[nawoo]

hsieh su wei has the best slice

 

[RelentlessAttack]

Honestly, slicing with modern racquets and strings feels awful and not satisfying at all. Whereas it felt awesome with some of the rackets that were common until the late 80s gen (eg six one 95).

Also playing most of the year on mid paced HC really reduces the effectiveness.

 

[mike danny]

Honestly, slicing with modern racquets and strings feels awful and not satisfying at all. Whereas it felt awesome with some of the rackets that were common until the late 80s gen (eg six one 95).

Also playing most of the year on mid paced HC really reduces the effectiveness.

The slice is still effective though. If guys like Tsitsipas and Sinner actually had this weapon, their records against Med would be better.

 

[McGradey]

Honestly, slicing with modern racquets and strings feels awful and not satisfying at all. Whereas it felt awesome with some of the rackets that were common until the late 80s gen (eg six one 95).

Also playing most of the year on mid paced HC really reduces the effectiveness.

Yeah I was thinking this too. Heavy racquets just beg you to slice the ball. Just put the knife in motion and watch it chop through the ball like it’s a little fluffy yellow cloud.

 

[RelentlessAttack]

The slice is still effective though. If guys like Tsitsipas and Sinner actually had this weapon, their records against Med would be better.

No doubt, Nadal made a big point of emphasizing the importance of adding the slice to his game for example. But it’s much more effective on surfaces with either low or irregular bounce, and much more satisfying and natural to hit with slightly more traditional racquet/string setups

 

[Ray Mercer]

There’s way too many slow high bouncing courts which limits its effectiveness. The poly strings do help hit over the slice as well. I really miss the Federer short slice. The slice is still very effective in rec league tennis. There should be way more courts on tour similar to the Dubai surface. They should also move back to smaller lighter balls.

 

[canta_Brian]

Wimbledon

On the old grass there was one tournament where slicing was pretty much essential, both in attack and defence. Because of that everyone had to learn to slice and so would use it elsewhere too. Now Wimbledon is high bouncing and not that quick there is no reason to learn to slice in the first place.

 

[Zoid]

Do you feel it’s a concerted effort from coaches to de-emphasize the slice in youth tennis? Something this widespread must have underpinnings that go beyond a few players.

Less under-emphasising, more just general game pressure that is now baseline and spin oriented. I think poly is the main reason.

 

[coolcamden]

The slice died the day Barty retired.

 

[Fabresque]

The guy who had the GOAT slice retired which had an impact on the tour I think. A lot of players struggled to hit topspin every time on Federer’s low, piercing slices so they would slice is back, now that he’s gone they don’t have to rely on the chop anymore.

 

[mental midget]

Yeah I was thinking this too. Heavy racquets just beg you to slice the ball. Just put the knife in motion and watch it chop through the ball like it’s a little fluffy yellow cloud.

true. like most things, i think the answer's a little bit of everything. it's harder for kids to hit a really penetrating slice, so as a developing junior if you're trying it you're probably gonna wind up on defense against your garden variety strong topspin bh. and of course racket weight does matter so that's part of the equation—it's not a coincidence that fed and murray have great slices, and play with rackets on the (very) heavy side for this day and age. and for sure poly has helped to counter those low skidding balls...nadal is exceptional in any event but in particular, man he absolutely feasted on fed's short slice balls.

it's still a great shot though...disruptive rhythmically, lets you put the ball in some weird places, and if you do it really well it's still hard to attack effectively. one thing about relying on topspin drives, it tends to put the ball right in the opponent's wheelhouse to do the same right back to you.

 

[socallefty]

In baseball, the analytics seems to have shown that it is better to hit home runs and strike out a lot rather than having a high batting average with a lot of singles. I wonder if the increasing popularity of analytics amongst pro tennis coaches is making them have access to stats like what happens to winning % when a player hits a slice in a rally or two slices in a row in a rally.

I heard from a part-time pro coach that the winning % of points is lower when a players hits two consecutive BHs in a rally and so they push players to hit more inside-FHs. More than 70% of points are 4 shots or less and this is not relevant, but on longer rallies he said that this is well known in locker rooms. Who knows what other stats exist that determine the current point strategy of the pros?

Some of it might not be favorable to fans watching a sport just like in baseball where you have to watch a high number of strikeouts.

 

[Clay lover]

In baseball, the analytics seems to have shown that it is better to hit home runs and strike out a lot rather than having a high batting average with a lot of singles. I wonder if the increasing popularity of analytics amongst pro tennis coaches is making them have access to stats like what happens to winning % when a player hits a slice in a rally or two slices in a rally.

I heard from a part-time pro coach that the winning % of points is lower when a players hits two consecutive BHs in a rally and so they push players to hit more inside-FHs. More than 70% of points are 4 shots or less and this is not relevant, but on longer rallies he said that this is well known in locker rooms. Who knows what other stats exist that determine the current point strategy of the pros?

Some of it might not be favorable to fans watching a sport just like in baseball where you have to watch a high number of strikeouts.

This might very well be true and I think it's also happening already - those who always complain about the "ugliness" of modern tennis styles and strategies will probably be surprised by the success in terms of percentages an "uglier" playstyle yields.

 

[Rovesciarete]

I heard from a part-time pro coach that the winning % of points is lower when a players hits two consecutive BHs in a rally and so they push players to hit more inside-FHs. More than 70% of points are 4 shots or less and this is not relevant, but on longer rallies he said that this is well known in locker rooms. Who knows what other stats exist that determine the current point strategy of the pros?

Inside-FH can be an excellent weapon as it has usually more spin, heft and players are plainly better with it. Really opens the courts thanks to its angle. Alcaraz does also love to slice a stopper inside-out. However if you are able to play a good inside-FH you had time and position to chose it, which in turn mostly means that you are more likely in control of the rally.

The BH slice has become IMHO more of a refined tool for a specific job. Nadal switching to plan B slice against the flat BH of Medvedev to help turning the AO final around is maybe the greatest recent example. It might not have been discussed as much but Djokovic sliced a lot against Sinner in his comeback on Wimby grass.

All this discussion about the Dunlop balls not bouncing makes me think that there might be increased profit to improve your slice.

 

[Zoid]

Do you feel it’s a concerted effort from coaches to de-emphasize the slice in youth tennis? Something this widespread must have underpinnings that go beyond a few players.

I didn't answer this very well, but I feel there are several pressures.

1) poly strings from the beginning means easy access to topspin/grip 'n' rip styles from a young age. No need to develop a block or defensive slice as much
2) The eurocentric concentration of top players self-selects more clay-grown players. If we look at the AUS/US/UK players a large contingency of them still have an effective slice (Evans, Tiafoe, kyrgios, thompson, COC, Murray etc.)
3) It is my opinion also that balls generally have gotten softer/flatter/deader across the board (i.e., ignoring the ITF change in 01 to a larger type 3 ball for hardcourt/fast court events that slowed down the game). The dunlop balls of the last few years are just soft. In lively conditions or windy conditions a slice was a great asset with a ball that was hard to control. Dead balls promote baseline crushing conditions more I think. Gasquet was complaining about this recently, saying as a control player, he benefits from lively balls because the other guy makes mistakes.
4) And the biggest reason, just less OHBHs, probably due to parents/coaches wanting results from a young age so the 2HBH self-selects there as well.

 

[sportsfan1]

Nadal used the slice as a strategy in some big matches against Djokovic, like at the uso 2013(?) to great effect. Federer early on in Djokovic career also used the short slice frequently to bring him to the net and then pass or make him volley.

Thiem sliced often too.

Nowadays it's just a few players like dimitrov.

You would think a low biting slice dtl to players with an extreme fh grip would be even more effective than to the bh side where the grip is continental, but that takes even more skill to hit.

I still don't see how a slice to change the opponents position, move them around the court, change the tempo rhythm of a rally is not a good option. But, just like volleying and drop shots, it takes a lot of creativity, skill and feel and has to be done right. An extra dimension to practice and maintain in the toolkit, and players don't do that as they can get away without it.

 

[Holmes]

Maybe you just have trouble counting past 1.

 

[Holmes]

Balls bounce too high and too regular for the slightly higher risk of a slice to be worth it. Agassi was freaked out by PETE's "good but not great" slice because he cut it low and short and forced Andre to move forward and bend low and be way off court. The slice today doesn't get low enough or bounce fast enough to make that kind of play effective. That lack of lowness and speed makes a slice wasted opportunity compared to the steady pressure of a drive.

 

[socallefty]

Guys who know how to slice still do well at Wimbledon and are more likely to create upsets in the first week when the ball skids a bit more before the grass gets dried/chewed up.

 

[reaper]

The disappearing slice is probably part of players having an A game. Which really means they can hit some shots but not others. Barty has been mentioned a couple of times on this thread. She said that her coach when she was growing up insisted that she learn to play every shot in the manual properly. She had a good backhand overhead so she probably achieved it. If you're a professional player you really should be good at every shot, because you have nothing to do other than play tennis all day every day for years on end. You just never know if having an inadequate slice, or poor backhand overhead will one day cost you a Wimbledon final.

 

[Holmes]

There’s way too many slow high bouncing courts which limits its effectiveness. The poly strings do help hit over the slice as well. I really miss the Federer short slice. The slice is still very effective in rec league tennis. There should be way more courts on tour similar to the Dubai surface. They should also move back to smaller lighter balls.

Did sureshs help you add this shot to your repertoir?

 

[Bill Lobsalot]

For today's pros, a slice a usually a defensive shot or used when you can't reach a ball with your two-hander. It's a good shot to have.

 

[BenC]

The Bogata WTA 250 final - haven't seen that much slicing since dinner rush at the local sushi joint.

 

[ppma]

For today's pros, a slice a usually a defensive shot or used when you can't reach a ball with your two-hander. It's a good shot to have.

That's a truth. But the other truth is that a good used slice shot can be useful for many things. It can be a poisoned junk ball used that guarantees a good position to finish a point at the net, can be used to stop pace, just have a rest from a long rally, or to annoy tall players with low balls. It's the fukking swiss knife of tennis shots, and it's sadly becoming underused.

 

[Bill Lobsalot]

That's a truth. But the other truth is that a good used slice shot can be useful for many things. It can be a poisoned junk ball used that guarantees a good position to finish a point at the net, can be used to stop pace, just have a rest from a long rally, or to annoy tall players with low balls. It's the fukking swiss knife of tennis shots, and it's sadly becoming underused.

Agreed. I slice a lot, especially coming to net.

 

[Connor35]

Previously, aka back in the day, it was hard to be aggressive off a low ball.
Now anyone good enough to be on tour has time to run around it, get down on it and hit topspin, almost no matter how low the slice.

So it has to be extremely good to be effective.

Kinda like the drop shot. My wife alway asks why so many drop shots hit the net -- why not just hit it a little higher/farther? Well because if you do, it's an easy short ball that'll be hit for a winner. Same with the slice, I think.

 

[socallefty]

It's the fukking swiss knife of tennis shots, and it's sadly becoming underused.

Swiss knives are less popular too and people don’t carry them around anymore.

 

[Holmes]

Previously, aka back in the day, it was hard to be aggressive off a low ball.
Now anyone good enough to be on tour has time to run around it, get down on it and hit topspin, almost no matter how low the slice.

So it has to be extremely good to be effective.

Kinda like the drop shot. My wife alway asks why so many drop shots hit the net -- why not just hit it a little higher/farther? Well because if you do, it's an easy short ball that'll be hit for a winner. Same with the slice, I think.

It's not a change in level of play, it's change in conditions that have allowed the slice to be more easily attacked.

 

[Connor35]

It's not a change in level of play, it's change in conditions that have allowed the slice to be more easily attacked.

I think we're saying the same thing. Racquets, strings, etc allow for alot more topspin on even very low balls.