Why is there equal prize money only in joint events?

[tennis3]

Shouldn't there be equal prize money when the events are separate (250's and 500's)?

ATP and WTA Revenue Reveals Huge Differences Between Player Earnings

As the debate around prize fund gaps between ATP & WTA e

tennis-infinity.com

ATP and WTA Revenue Reveals Huge Differences Between Player Earnings​

​

As the debate around prize fund gaps between ATP & WTA events continues into 2023, official figures suggest the inequality in numbers is set to continue.

For the 2021 season, as reported by ProPublica, the ATP took a record $176.8 million in revenue, while the WTA only saw an income of $87.8 million. In addition, the men's income has continued to rise steadily since 2012, but revenue on the WTA tour has declined steeply after reaching a record level of $109.7 million in 2019.

The impact of Covid-19 can be considered as a factor in the decline of annual income for the WTA in recent years. However, question marks remain over the huge difference in revenue when compared to the record-high sums achieved by the ATP from sponsorship, licencing fees and income from event finals.


A closer examination of the prize money differences between ATP and WTA events at different levels also highlights the vast gap in earnings between male and female players despite the revenues not differing as much as the prize money totals.


For instance, the prize money at the majority of ATP 250 events is around $642,735, which is nearly three times the number for the parallel WTA competition where the prize money usually totals $259,303.


Even more stark are the financial figures for higher-points competitions. In particular, the men's prize fund at the 2023 Dubai Championships, an ATP 500 event, was nearly $3 million, whereas the women's pay from the WTA 500 Charleston Open was just $780,637.

The same theme was noticeable in 2022 and the Financial Times revealed that men's players were roughly earning 75% more compared to female players, excluding the Grand Slams, which pay equal prize money. Moreover, the 2022 prize money was particularly significant because it highlighted the biggest between male and female prize money since 2001.

Although the tennis majors have led the way for equality in prize money in recent years, it remains to be seen whether the other ATP and WTA tour events will catch up anytime soon. If the current trend continues, the growing gap between male and female prize money will become wider before any parity is achieved.

 

[Bartelby]

They are two separate organizations that do things in two separate ways based on two separate income profiles.

The only way parity will be achieved is if the ATP feels it is profitable enough to unify the game by combining with the WTA to create a more powerful and profitable tennis juggernaut.

 

[pabletion]

Shouldn't there be equal prize money when the events are separate (250's and 500's)?

ATP and WTA Revenue Reveals Huge Differences Between Player Earnings

As the debate around prize fund gaps between ATP & WTA e

tennis-infinity.com

ATP and WTA Revenue Reveals Huge Differences Between Player Earnings​

​

As the debate around prize fund gaps between ATP & WTA events continues into 2023, official figures suggest the inequality in numbers is set to continue.

For the 2021 season, as reported by ProPublica, the ATP took a record $176.8 million in revenue, while the WTA only saw an income of $87.8 million. In addition, the men's income has continued to rise steadily since 2012, but revenue on the WTA tour has declined steeply after reaching a record level of $109.7 million in 2019.

The impact of Covid-19 can be considered as a factor in the decline of annual income for the WTA in recent years. However, question marks remain over the huge difference in revenue when compared to the record-high sums achieved by the ATP from sponsorship, licencing fees and income from event finals.


A closer examination of the prize money differences between ATP and WTA events at different levels also highlights the vast gap in earnings between male and female players despite the revenues not differing as much as the prize money totals.


For instance, the prize money at the majority of ATP 250 events is around $642,735, which is nearly three times the number for the parallel WTA competition where the prize money usually totals $259,303.


Even more stark are the financial figures for higher-points competitions. In particular, the men's prize fund at the 2023 Dubai Championships, an ATP 500 event, was nearly $3 million, whereas the women's pay from the WTA 500 Charleston Open was just $780,637.

The same theme was noticeable in 2022 and the Financial Times revealed that men's players were roughly earning 75% more compared to female players, excluding the Grand Slams, which pay equal prize money. Moreover, the 2022 prize money was particularly significant because it highlighted the biggest between male and female prize money since 2001.

Although the tennis majors have led the way for equality in prize money in recent years, it remains to be seen whether the other ATP and WTA tour events will catch up anytime soon. If the current trend continues, the growing gap between male and female prize money will become wider before any parity is achieved.

BC Grand Slams are ITF events (not WTA or ATP).

 

[tennis3]

They are two separate organizations that do things in two separate ways based on two separate income profiles.

The only way parity will be achieved is if the ATP feels it is profitable enough to unify the game by combining with the WTA to create a more powerful and profitable tennis juggernaut.

Not following what you mean here?

 

[tennis3]

BC Grand Slams are ITF events (not WTA or ATP).

How about Masters 1000 level events?

 

[CHIP72]

It should be noted that not all Masters 1000 events have equal prize money for the men and women; only some do.

Edit in response to the post directly above this one: Masters 1000 events are ATP and WTA events. The only ITF events are the Grand Slams and the sub-ATP Challengers on the men's side (tournament purse below $50k) and sub-WTA 125 events on the women's side (tournament purse below $125k).

 

[Milanez82]

Shouldn't there be equal prize money when the events are separate (250's and 500's)?

ATP and WTA Revenue Reveals Huge Differences Between Player Earnings

As the debate around prize fund gaps between ATP & WTA e

tennis-infinity.com

ATP and WTA Revenue Reveals Huge Differences Between Player Earnings​

​

As the debate around prize fund gaps between ATP & WTA events continues into 2023, official figures suggest the inequality in numbers is set to continue.

For the 2021 season, as reported by ProPublica, the ATP took a record $176.8 million in revenue, while the WTA only saw an income of $87.8 million. In addition, the men's income has continued to rise steadily since 2012, but revenue on the WTA tour has declined steeply after reaching a record level of $109.7 million in 2019.

The impact of Covid-19 can be considered as a factor in the decline of annual income for the WTA in recent years. However, question marks remain over the huge difference in revenue when compared to the record-high sums achieved by the ATP from sponsorship, licencing fees and income from event finals.


A closer examination of the prize money differences between ATP and WTA events at different levels also highlights the vast gap in earnings between male and female players despite the revenues not differing as much as the prize money totals.


For instance, the prize money at the majority of ATP 250 events is around $642,735, which is nearly three times the number for the parallel WTA competition where the prize money usually totals $259,303.


Even more stark are the financial figures for higher-points competitions. In particular, the men's prize fund at the 2023 Dubai Championships, an ATP 500 event, was nearly $3 million, whereas the women's pay from the WTA 500 Charleston Open was just $780,637.

The same theme was noticeable in 2022 and the Financial Times revealed that men's players were roughly earning 75% more compared to female players, excluding the Grand Slams, which pay equal prize money. Moreover, the 2022 prize money was particularly significant because it highlighted the biggest between male and female prize money since 2001.

Although the tennis majors have led the way for equality in prize money in recent years, it remains to be seen whether the other ATP and WTA tour events will catch up anytime soon. If the current trend continues, the growing gap between male and female prize money will become wider before any parity is achieved.

The answer is simple, WTA doesn't make enough money through tickets and sponsorships. Its a really dumb article.
If WTA revenue is two times less then ATP, how could they afford the same prize funds???
If some of the masters didn't have both tours at the same time, WTA revenue would probably be even worse.

But Saudi Arabia will help women earn more.. China tournaments too... Ironic isn't it?

 

[tennis3]

If WTA revenue is two times less then ATP, how could they afford the same prize funds???

They do at all the Slams and most of the Masters 1000 (soon to be all).

So why not at ALL events? Even if they aren't combined (what does combined have to do with it)?

 

[Pass750]

WTA players would be making nowhere what they make now if all of their events were stand alone. This idea they should make same money as men when they don’t generate same revenue is woke madness. They are riding on mens coattails in the combined tournaments .

 

[happyandbob]

They do at all the Slams and most of the Masters 1000 (soon to be all).

So why not at ALL events? Even if they aren't combined (what does combined have to do with it)?

In any tennis tournament, where do you think the money comes from? The money that the tournament is paying to the players? Where does that money come from?

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

There shouldn't be any equal prize money to begin with.. Best of 3 vs. Best of 5 and people want equal pay? Gimme a break. Women only have to be on court half the time

 

[tennis3]

WTA players would be making nowhere what they make now if all of their events were stand alone. This idea they should make same money as men when they don’t generate same revenue is woke madness. They are riding on mens coattails in the combined tournaments .

When events are combined, it creates a synergistic tennis juggernaut. So everyone makes more money (the pie gets bigger) and it is equally shared, which is obviously the only fair way to do it.

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

...............

 

[tennis3]

In any tennis tournament, where do you think the money comes from? The money that the tournament is paying to the players? Where does that money come from?

I have no idea. I'm not interested in that.

All I want to know is why the prize money isn't equal at ALL events?

 

[Bambooman]

I have no idea. I'm not interested in that.

All I want to know is why the prize money isn't equal at ALL events?

Because only the shared events have enough fans in total to support that.

 

[tennis3]

This idea they should make same money as men when they don’t generate same revenue is woke madness.

50 years

Billie Jean King, Michelle Obama celebrate 50 years of equal pay at US Open - ESPN Video

Billie Jean King and Michelle Obama celebrate the 50th anniversary of equal pay for men and women at the US Open.

www.espn.com

 

[tennis3]

Because only the shared events have enough fans in total to support that.

What do you mean? Men are earning 75% more than female players (excluding Grand Slam events where prize money is equal).

Why not equal at all events?

 

[Pass750]

When events are combined, it creates a synergistic tennis juggernaut. So everyone makes more money (the pie gets bigger) and it is equally shared, which is obviously the only fair way to do it.

It does, but it is incremental, having women certainly doesn’t increase revenue enough to justify 50% split.

 

[L4S10s]

 

[tennis3]

In any tennis tournament, where do you think the money comes from? The money that the tournament is paying to the players? Where does that money come from?

Because only the shared events have enough fans in total to support that.

2022 WTA Finals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Plenty of money (fans) for big payouts at the WTA 2022 Year End Finals

Prize money and points​

The total prize money for the 2022 WTA Finals is US$5,000,000. The tables below are based on the updated draw sheet information.[6]

 

[Bambooman]

What do you mean? Men are earning 75% more than female players (excluding Grand Slam events where prize money is equal).

Why not equal at all events?

Because there's less fans at WTA only events I would think,

 

[Bambooman]

2022 WTA Finals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Plenty of money (fans) for big payouts at the WTA 2022 Year End Finals

Prize money and points​

The total prize money for the 2022 WTA Finals is US$5,000,000. The tables below are based on the updated draw sheet information.[6]

That looks like a lost gamble. It happens.

 

[taster]

What do you mean? Men are earning 75% more than female players (excluding Grand Slam events where prize money is equal).

Why not equal at all events?

Because men's tennis attracts more money, therefore the prize money can be larger, it's really not that complicated.

 

[happyandbob]

2022 WTA Finals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Plenty of money (fans) for big payouts at the WTA 2022 Year End Finals

Prize money and points​

The total prize money for the 2022 WTA Finals is US$5,000,000. The tables below are based on the updated draw sheet information.[6]

That doesn’t at all answer my question. Where do you think is the source of the money for the prize payouts?

 

[happyandbob]

I have no idea. I'm not interested in that.

All I want to know is why the prize money isn't equal at ALL events?

Then you’re not interested in understanding why the prize payouts for the separate events are unequal. You just want to complain about it.

If you really want to know why they’re unequal you need to be interested in my question.

 

[mtommer]

I have no idea. I'm not interested in that.

All I want to know is why the prize money isn't equal at ALL events?

So basically you're not interested in the answer. Prize money doesn't grow on trees.

 

[Bartelby]

I did write "juggernaut" and you've spelled out what I mean. A combined tour may raise all boats even if the female boat rises further.

Not following what you mean here?

When events are combined, it creates a synergistic tennis juggernaut. So everyone makes more money (the pie gets bigger) and it is equally shared, which is obviously the only fair way to do it.

 

[tennis3]

Then you’re not interested in understanding why the prize payouts for the separate events are unequal. You just want to complain about it.

If you really want to know why they’re unequal you need to be interested in my question.

So basically you're not interested in the answer. Prize money doesn't grow on trees.

What I'm saying is, if there can be equal prize money at some events, why not for all events?

Don't you care about equality?

 

[tennis3]

I did write "juggernaut" and you've spelled out what I mean. A combined tour may raise all boats even if the female boat rises further.

But why is a combined tour necessary? The WTA and ATP are just as separate at combined events as they are at other events.

So why not equal prize money at all events now?

 

[SonnyT]

Equal money is a steal for women. I never like Billy Jean anyway.

 

[tennis3]

Equal money is a steal for women. I never like Billy Jean anyway.

Do you think Billie Jean would still support (and fight for if necessary) equal prize money if women's tennis becomes more popular than men's (and is making more money)?

I'd assume so, right?

 

[Bartelby]

There is one audience for men's tennis and three audiences for women's tennis: women, metrosexuals, and pervy men.

 

[tennis3]

There is one audience for men's tennis and three audiences for women's tennis: women, metrosexuals, and pervy men.

There certainly are a lot of metrosexuals and pervy men in NYC tonight

 

[happyandbob]

What I'm saying is, if there can be equal prize money at some events, why not for all events?

Don't you care about equality?

You can’t care about equality if you don’t understand the basics of how prize money works.

And I care very much about equality

 

[happyandbob]

But why is a combined tour necessary? The WTA and ATP are just as separate at combined events as they are at other events.

So why not equal prize money at all events now?

You keep asking the same question without trying to use your brain

 

[tennis3]

You can’t care about equality if you don’t understand the basics of how prize money works.

And I care very much about equality

1. The ATP and WTA are separate tours
2. They are separate when they hold events at different places
3. They are separate when they hold a combined event
4. All combined events offer equal prize money (or soon will if they don't)
5. Offering equal prize money at combined events is universally praised (they held a 4 hour event last night).
6. But to reiterate, the WTA and ATP are separate, even at combined events. Even though they offer equal prize money

7. So why not have equal prize money at ALL events? If it makes sense at combined events, doesn't it make sense all the time?
8. Isn't it unfair that ATP players earn 75% more than WTA players?

 

[happyandbob]

1. The ATP and WTA are separate tours
2. They are separate when they hold events at different places
3. They are separate when they hold a combined event
4. All combined events offer equal prize money (or soon will if they don't)
5. Offering equal prize money at combined events is universally praised (they held a 4 hour event last night).
6. But to reiterate, the WTA and ATP are separate, even at combined events. Even though they offer equal prize money

7. So why not have equal prize money at ALL events? If it makes sense at combined events, doesn't it make sense all the time?
8. Isn't it unfair that ATP players earn 75% more than WTA players?

All of that writing and yet zero thought given to where the prize money comes from. Where do the ATP and WTA get the money to give out to players?

You’re purposely excluding that information because you know it invalidates your entire whine.

 

[Bartelby]

1. The ATP and WTA are separate tours
2. They are separate when they hold events at different places
3. They are separate when they hold a combined event
4. All combined events offer equal prize money (or soon will if they don't)
5. Offering equal prize money at combined events is universally praised (they held a 4 hour event last night).
6. But to reiterate, the WTA and ATP are separate, even at combined events. Even though they offer equal prize money

7. So why not have equal prize money at ALL events? If it makes sense at combined events, doesn't it make sense all the time?
8. Isn't it unfair that ATP players earn 75% more than WTA players?

If the WTA has a lower income base where are they getting the money to pay ATP prize monies at all events?

 

[tennis3]

If the WTA has a lower income base where are they getting the money to pay ATP prize monies at all events?

The same way they do it at joint events presumably.

If the ATP has a higher income base at separate events, the would presumably also be true at joint events. Yet, equal pay is the fair and obvious thing to do at joint events.

So it follows that equal pay is the fair and obvious thing to do at all events, correct?

 

[mtommer]

What I'm saying is, if there can be equal prize money at some events, why not for all events?

Don't you care about equality?

Clearly you've never had to try to raise money for events. Sponsor money and contracts, the lifeblood of sporting events, is very difficult to secure. Most events rely on volunteers, for example. For example, Kalamazoo College has been able to keep the Boys Nationals in Kzoo in large part due to enourmous volunteer efforts and a generous community that houses the player entourages at their homes, saving those families etc. a lot of added costs many struggle with. This kind of support is noted because so few tennis events, including Challengers, Futures and lower level Tour events struggle for even half of similar support.....and that's just the men's side.

As for equality. True equality isn't quality of out come. Tennis is an entertainment product just like a movie is. Should all movies released in a year get an equal share of all the totals made for said movies? All the people of a small indie film worked just as hard on their film as those of a major blockbuster. I mean, it's completely ridiculous and unfair that Tom Cruise made tens of millions of dollars while some other lead was lucky to get ten thousand dollars. Don't we care about equality?

 

[mtommer]

Yet, equal pay is the fair and obvious thing to do at joint events.

So it follows that equal pay is the fair and obvious thing to do at all events, correct?

Oh, it's not even remotely fair or obvious. What is, is fortunate. It's fortunate because there are a few combined events that bring in enough money to keep the male players happy such that they can then pay the women the same amount, thereby presenting a surface level of equality so they look good to the public. The other events can't, literally, afford that level of virtue signaling.

 

[Bartelby]

The same way they do it at joint events presumably.

If the ATP has a higher income base at separate events, the would presumably also be true at joint events. Yet, equal pay is the fair and obvious thing to do at joint events.

So it follows that equal pay is the fair and obvious thing to do at all events, correct?

No. Not correct.

Joint events are given equal prize money when and where the organizers and sponsors want it. Hence, the money is available.

Elsewhere, and for the most part, the money is not there. And hence the WTA only events have to pay prize money out of a smaller pool.

 

[tennis3]

Oh, it's not even remotely fair or obvious.

If it isn't fair and obvious, wouldn't someone have noticed these past 50 years?

Reflecting on Billie Jean King's legacy 50 years after securing equal pay

Billie Jean King was an icon on the tennis court, but one of her most important victories came off the court when she helped secure equal pay for women at the U.S. Open in 1973. Nancy Chen looks back at her legacy 50 years later.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[crimson87]

Capitalism 101.

 

[tennis3]

No. Not correct.

Joint events are given equal prize money when and where the organizers and sponsors want it. Hence, the money is available.

Elsewhere, and for the most part, the money is not there. And hence the WTA only events have to pay prize money out of a smaller pool.

So you're saying that women earning less than men outside of joint events is fair?

 

[happyandbob]

The same way they do it at joint events presumably.

If the ATP has a higher income base at separate events, the would presumably also be true at joint events. Yet, equal pay is the fair and obvious thing to do at joint events.

So it follows that equal pay is the fair and obvious thing to do at all events, correct?

Pay doesn't come from some magic pot of money where people "decide" what to pay. Revenues determine payouts. It's not a fairness issue at all in separate events. Try to understand where that money comes from unless you're purposely trying to seem obtuse.

ATP separate event raises $100 they pay out based on that $100

WTA separate event raises $50 they pay out based on that $50. They have to pay less, because they don't have a magic pot of money, payout are based on how much money the tournament earns in tickets sold + advertisements + sponsors + television rights. If you want the WTA to pay more, go buy some tickets to a WTA event.

ATP + WTA combined event raises $150 they pay out equally because they're sharing the same revenues because it's the same tournament.

 

[tennis3]

Pay doesn't come from some magic pot of money where people "decide" what to pay. Revenues determine payouts. It's not a fairness issue at all in separate events. Try to understand where that money comes from unless you're purposely trying to seem obtuse.

ATP separate event raises $100 they pay out based on that $100

WTA separate event raises $50 they pay out based on that $50. They have to pay less, because they don't have a magic pot of money, payout are based on how much money the tournament earns in tickets sold + advertisements + sponsors + television rights. If you want the WTA to pay more, go buy some tickets to a WTA event.

ATP + WTA combined event raises $150 they pay out equally because they're sharing the same revenues because it's the same tournament.

If separate events generate $150 and combined events generate $150, why pay different prize money depending on if it's separate or combined? It's the same $150.

If it makes sense to have equal pay at combined events (which 50 years of experience tells us it obviously does), then why wouldn't it make sense to pay the same at separate events?

Or are you saying that combing the event elevates the WTA event from a $50 to a $75 event while at the same time lowering the ATP event from a $100 to a $75 event?

 

[happyandbob]

If separate events generate $150 and combined events generate $150, why pay different prize money depending on if it's separate or combined? It's the same $150.

If it makes sense to have equal pay at combined events (which 50 years of experience tells us it obviously does), then why wouldn't it make sense to pay the same at separate events?

They are separate organizations, as was mentioned above multiple times. Just because they both participate in some tournaments (which they don't own or run BTW), doesn't mean they share revenues. I actually was inaccurate in my previous post, here is how it really works:

ATP separate event raises $100 they pay out based on that $100

WTA separate event raises $50 they pay out based on that $50. They have to pay less, because they don't have a magic pot of money, payout are based on how much money the tournament earns in tickets sold + advertisements + sponsors + television rights. If you want the WTA to pay more, go buy some tickets to a WTA event.

USTA runs the USOpen and invites ATP and WTA players for their combined event, which raises $750 they pay out equally because Billie Jean King and Martina and others fought the good fight and won the right for women to be paid the same as the men when they participate in the same tournament. Neither the ATP nor the WTA have any say in what the US Open pays men or women for the tournament that the USTA runs.

If you're saying the ATP and WTA should merge so women can be paid the same as the men, maybe you should work on that. Maybe get Apple and Microsoft to merge while you're at it so my *** damn airpods will work without glitching on my PC.

 

[ActualTennisPlayer]

Why isn’t the prize money the same in my local tournament? The ATP should give us some money!!

 

[tennis3]

They are separate organizations, as was mentioned above multiple times. Just because they both participate in some tournaments (which they don't own or run BTW), doesn't mean they share revenues. I actually was inaccurate in my previous post, here is how it really works:

ATP separate event raises $100 they pay out based on that $100

WTA separate event raises $50 they pay out based on that $50. They have to pay less, because they don't have a magic pot of money, payout are based on how much money the tournament earns in tickets sold + advertisements + sponsors + television rights. If you want the WTA to pay more, go buy some tickets to a WTA event.

USTA runs the USOpen and invites ATP and WTA players for their combined event, which raises $750 they pay out equally because Billie Jean King and Martina and others fought the good fight and won the right for women to be paid the same as the men when they participate in the same tournament. Neither the ATP nor the WTA have any say in what the US Open pays men or women for the tournament that the USTA runs.

If you're saying the ATP and WTA should merge so women can be paid the same as the men, maybe you should work on that. Maybe get Apple and Microsoft to merge while you're at it so my *** damn airpods will work without glitching on my PC.

Seems strange that equal pay makes sense at combined events but doesn't make sense at separate events.

But all this math was never my strong suit. I guess everyone knows what's best for them. Thanks for explaining this to me.