Why the all no-name players at the Seniors Masters Cup?

!Tym

Hall of Fame
Bruguera lost in the semifinals to Paul Harhuis (aka the McEnroe killer from the US Open who's better well-known as the guy who couldn't put away an overhead against Connors at the US Open) in the Delta seniors masters cup today.

The weird thing is not that he lost, but that the loss was allowed to happen in the first place.

How is it possible that the year ending flagship event for the "legends" tour has spots occupied by several marginal-name players?

I'm not saying Harhuis isn't good, because he is; he was one of the best doubles players ever, and when on his game more than capable of upsetting a 'name' player as well, including Bruguera twice on tour on clay in fact.

But the thing is. We all knew that. "Upsets" happen all the time on the main tour. The average players have ALWAYS been just a hair below the level of the top guys and on their day MORE THAN CAPABLE of beating a top guy (aka Johansson over Safin, Byron Shelton over Stich at Wimbledon, Yzaga over Sampras, heck even lowly MICHAEL RUSSEL had match point against Kuerten at the French during Guga's peak). We all know that, but the thing is the seniors tour ISN'T a "real," equal opportunity tour...or at least it shouldn't be in my opinion. The seniors tour is like a traveling circus with various "name" acts. What good would a hall of fame magician's tour be, if instead of Penn and Teller and David Copperfield performing on closing night we got "Howie the Entertainer" or something? I'm sure "Howie the Entertainer" knows his stuff and can do a more than reasonable job of filling in and doing the tricks, but the one thing he can never replace is the "aura" and name of well...a big name.

The danger in letting in the no-name players that the average Joe off the street would never know is that you get a guy like Jeremy Bates of all people playing real tough, so tough, in fact, that he nearly made the semis. So tough, in fact, that he actually beat the tada finalist, Paul Haarhuis in the round robin. No one's saying these guys can't compete, the problem is that they can compete tooo well, a little tooo close for comfort in fact if I'm the sponsor/financier backing this tour.

The Seniors Tour isn't the main tour and it's not supposed to be, it's half-staged exhibition and half real competition. The competition is supposed to be real, but the gimic selling things is that it's not supposed to be Paul Haarhuis and Anders Jarryd and Jeremey Bates duking it out at the marque year ending championships.

Everyone knows upsets happen on the main tour. They're inevitable in fact. But on the main tour you have a full calendar year to "diffuse" things and at the slams best of five sets to give the top player off to a slow start a chance to recover and make the sponsors and TV guys happy. The seniors tour in it's current "race to the Masters Cup" style configuration is a pale immitation of the main tour's marketing sucess with that format.

The fact is that on the seniors tour, players only play a few tournaments here and there and participation is sporadic at best as are tournaments.

This as a result repeatedly opens the possibility for Bates, Jarryd, Haarhuis, Antonitsch, Uwe-Steeb, Furlan, Bloom, Gaudenzi, Marques, Sanchez, Boetsch, etc., etc. types to slip into these events and shine a little of that spotlight they were never able to achieve on the main tour their way now that they're retired. In fact, I believe that for these guys, the seniors tour is even more alluring as they DIDN'T achieve their childhood dreams of fame and glory the way the "name" players on the seniors tour did. So, for them this is the next best thing, PLUS you KNOW Thomas Muster certainly ain't as fit as he used to be!

It's a golden opportunity, but as a sponsor of the tour I have to think about the marketability and future growth of the tour. If Paul Haarhuis beats Courier in the final tomorrow, that would be DISASTROUS for an already fragile tour. Just think if guys like Jarryd, Bates, and Haarhuis all could have been competing in the semifinals with the only other name semifinalist being Muster...who as we know is uncomfortable indoors especially against serve and volleyers (his arch enemis style to face). That is a SCARY proposition to a sponsor, and the even scarrier thing is that it's not that far-fetched a scenario.

Just to me, it doesn't make smart business sense.

Sure, at the mundane "tour" stops, the rif-raf are inevitable fill-ins for the "names" who can't be bothered to show; but come on for the year-ending marque event? I think that somehow, someway, you've GOT to have NAME ONLY players in the final event, even if it means manipulating things.

Guy Forget to me is a name player, albeit barely. Petr Korda is a name player. Michael Stich is a name player. Boris Becker is a name player. These are all guys who should have been offered wild cards somehow, someway even though they may not have played events or played enough events or done well enough "officially" to qualify.

The bottom-line is that while these name players do 'enjoy' the tour, they obviously don't "enjoy" it seriously enough that they're willing to go globe hopping like 22 year old grass hoppers around the world chasing points year round just to "legitimize" a so-called, year-ending championship.

So, why are we pretending here? This is NOT a TRUE year-ending championship. There's simply not enough of a baseline sampling to validify that over the course of a calendar year.

To me, it should not have mattered if the big names didn't want to commit all-out to "qualify" for the year ending event, they ALL should have been invited to the year ending event anyway, even coaxed, cajoled, or bribed one way or another to ensure that NO MATTER what you ONLY have "name" players in the year-ending "marque" event.

The average guy off the street, heck, ESPN or any other legitimate sports reporting agency, does NOT care how "legitimate" the tour is, or that there is an actual system in place to determine who gets "honors" of competing in the year ending championships. Honestly, no one cares. People don't follow the seniors tour like it means anything; they instead look at each tournament as an EXHIBITION tournament, kind of like the celebrety "benefit" that comes to town every year. Which celebrity should be given the "honor" of competing in the celbrity pro-am? Billy Crystal, Dr. Phil, Pamela Anderson...or Gary the city treasurer? Who do you think is going to sell more tickets? Who do you think is going to make enough money to bring the "benefit" back for one more year?

And along those lines, one has to wonder, what if that could have been Stefan Edberg enticed to play just ONE tournament a year at the GLORIOUS Royal Albert Hall? Just one, Stefan. You've said that you still love playing tennis, just not enough to travel anymore. Come on Stefan, it's JUST ONE TOURNAMENT and EVERYONE'S going to be there. Come on, it'll be a big ol' party. "Name" players who drive Ferraris only reminiscing about how rich they are and how much more popular they are in their respective home countries than you, what could be better?

I don't know about you, but I'd rather see a single, TRULY GREAT AND EXTRAVAGANT seniors event than many mediorcre events scattered throughout the year. So what if all it ammounts to is a glorified exhibition tournament? Heck, the old Grand Slam Cup was a glorified exhibition tournament too, but it sure was a lot of fun! ...plus, the money was pretty good too.
 

VGP

Legend
!Tym - I think you take the cake for the mose verbose posts.

To answer your question, the criteria for players to qualify for the Delta Tour of Champions is as follows:

"To be eligible to compete on the Delta Tour of Champions, players must have been either a World No.1 during their competitive playing careers, a Grand Slam singles finalist, or a singles player in a victorious Davis Cup team, and no longer active on the ATP tour. Each event can also invite two players of its choice to take wild cards." (from DTC website)


As a side note: Courier's InsideOut Sports and Entertainment tour qualification criteria are:

"To be eligible to compete on the Champions Cup Series, players must have either been ranked in the top 5 in the world in the ATP rankings during their career, have been a Grand Slam singles finalist or champion, a singles player on a victorious Davis Cup team and cannot be currently ranked on the ATP singles computer. This criteria assures fans that there will be a legend competing in every match of every session of every event." (IOSE website)

The qualifications leave room for "no-name players" as you call them. Especially, if the tournament venue leaves room for two wild-card players. Obviously you are an avid tennis fan and these players are not "no-name" to you. It seems to me that Brugera, Haarhuis, Bates, Jarryd, et al. aren't no names at least to the people setting up the tournament. DTC is mainly a european event and the finals are held in London. They are choosing players that will fill the seats where the tournaments are held.

If you look at IOSE and the players that have been chosen there, they are primarily American players. If I were in europe I'd probably be wondering why they would choose Krickstein and Martin.

In the end, if Harrhuis beats Courier, I'd be surprised, but as you know, players' abilities change with time. With sport, anything can happen.
 

AndrewD

Legend
I imagine, given the location of the Royal Albert Hall, that the organisers would be particularly happy about the form of Jeremy Bates. End of the day, a lot of the lower rated players (in their day) were able to compete due to their physical prowess. The guys who won big - majors- had an edge in talent. As they get older the physical capabilites fade but the edge in talent remains.

Anyway, if the biggest name players get an invite to the year end event -regardless of results during the year- what motivation is there for them to play the regular tour, such as it is? If they don't play the tour then there is no year end extravaganza. Also, the lesser names might just be 'filler' but they are still competitors. If they know other players are getting an easy ride why should they bother competing? Yes, it is a few extra dollars in the pocket but most all of these guys are very comfortably off and there is the matter of personal pride. If you don't provide some incentive for the Jarryd's, Brugera's, etc, etc then you'll end up with tour populated by the Michael Russel's of the world.
 

Deuce

Banned
As well, just because players A, B, C, and D were respectively ranked, for example, #2, #10, #14, and #62 when they were 25 years old does not at all mean that the same hierarchy will hold true when the players are 35 or 40 years old and retired from the pro tour. It may well be that a 36 year old player D is better than a 39 year old player A.
 

!Tym

Hall of Fame
Well, Haarhuis beat Courier in the finals and it's no surprise. He was definitely the best player all week. As I said, it's no surprise that he can win. In fact, I'm not surprised at all. I think the conditions suit his all-court game and fine volleys perfectly, and he was one who during his tour days was able to bring out his best tennis against the big names. What is a surprise, however, is that business-sense wise, Paul Haarhuis isn't as good a draw financially as having a Becker or even Forget in the finals. He ruins the "party" so to speak. Does he deserve to win? Of course, but just objectively speaking for the long-term health and visibility of the sport; I do not believe it is in the best interest to allow this kind of thing to happen.

It's like with the old Connors tour. They decided to have a wild card tournament for local seniors doubles teams to get into the main draw of one of their events. Problem was, the seniors doubles team actually BEAT one of the seniors "legend's" teams in their first match. After this, the tour immediately decided to never hold such a wildcard tournament again and make it names vs. names only, which is a can't lose situation. This seniors doubles team might have been beyond great and maybe just late bloomers, but they're not exactly the kind of names you can sell to the sponsors who actually make the tour possible if you know what I mean.

It's the whole Rocky, "Italian Stallion" school of thought. When you start thinking that way and making it equal opportunity, you're playing with fire.

Fundamentally, the seniors tour is around for two reasons only, nostalgia and to make a profit.

I definitely agree that what was then is not now, just as the number one junior in the world does not always become the number one ATP player in the world and sometimes a guy like Jeremy Bates who was a classic underachiever on the main tour finds less pressure in older age and hence performs better later on in a less pressured environment. I already know that from first hand experience.

But just in terms of credibility to the MASS public who does not really follow tennis. The Haarhuis's of the world aren't exactly the kind of person you can "sell" to your non-playing tennis friend to "convince" him to go to the stadium with you.

It just seems to me that a true "super event" would do more to bring attention to the seniors game than a faux-tour trying to emulate the format of the real tour...albeit only "part-time."

I'm thinking along the lines of a by invitation only, "Grand Slam" of seniors tennis. Meaning only grand slam winners or name players are allowed to play with a huge payout to entice them. Something where the players would feel like hey I really want to win this thing, like something like this doesn't come along very often. The old Grand Slam Cup was that way. It offerred such a huge prize for its time and held an exclusive field. Of course, with time that "one MILLION dollar" first prize really didn't seem as OH MY GOODNESS as it once did (lol, Austin Powers), but still. During its hey day, it was a marquee and coveted event by the top players anyway despite not being a "real" tournament. I'd say that even though it wasn't a "legitimate" tournament, it was still in many ways a more prestigious tournament to win than say Umag and virtually all tour stops except the masters series events, slams, and year ending championships. It was kind of like the unofficial slam.

A FULL-field, NON-round robin event, of only name players is something that's not been seen before. Personally, I've always felt that round robin events dillute the sense of urgency and imminent danger that single elimination events have, plus the allow loop holes.
 
Why not run it like the regular tour - qualies, points, rankings,etc., with entry based on the same factors. Instead, just make the 'name' players or those with the achivements catalogued above seeded players, and let the 'no-names' (or those who have not met the criteria) be unseeded or qualify. Lots of people would be just as happy to see Haarhuis playing well as Becker being out of shape.
 

AndrewD

Legend
"But just in terms of credibility to the MASS public who does not really follow tennis. The Haarhuis's of the world aren't exactly the kind of person you can "sell" to your non-playing tennis friend to "convince" him to go to the stadium with you."

Actually, I think Haarhuis winning the tournament does add to the credibility. A non-player might wonder why he/she is going along to watch some old farts messing around and probably cooking the result so the favourite can win. This at least lets he/she know that they're going to see a contest. Yes, they are out to entertain but they do still play up the angle that they're out there playing good tennis.

So, does this mean if Mac could still win often enough on the regular tour (I hear it being said) to be top 100 and he lost to Courier who in turn lost to Haarhuis that Haarhuis could still be top 100? LOL
 

martin

Banned
Haarhuis only played doubles and no singles for the last few years. He hardly trained for this. He injured his shoulder in a ski accident and could only serve at half speed and a lot of pain but still got to the final of the french open with Kafelnikov. He retired because of his shoulder and only played the daviscup doubles because Verkerk, Schalken and van Lottum were injured.
 

Aykhan Mammadov

Hall of Fame
Subject here is very close to that one when after Nalbandians victory recently I suggested not to allow into real Masters Cup tournament those players who never won Masters in their career NOT depending on their rankings.
 

VGP

Legend
Did y'all not read my post? Both the DTC and IOSE legends tour events have set criteria for who they let play. It takes some of the subjectivity out of the situation.
 

callitout

Professional
VGP said:
Did y'all not read my post? Both the DTC and IOSE legends tour events have set criteria for who they let play. It takes some of the subjectivity out of the situation.

Thanks for the info.
BTW VGP where'd you get the information at the bottom of your post about the high end of NTRP ratings. top 500 and 300 player etc.
I thought they said something like 'above 5.5 NTRP rankings are not very useful, because players will have regional and national rankings'.
 

Kevin Patrick

Hall of Fame
thought this was funny(& I guess it doesn't break any atp rules)

Paul Haarhuis lifted the £58,000 winner-takes-all Masters Tennis prize at London's Royal Albert Hall yesterday. The Dutch doubles specialist - a 40-1 pre-tournament outsider - beat the defending champion Jim Courier 6-3, 7-6 in the final.

Haarhuis revealed he had also secured an additional bonus by staking "big bucks" on himself at 40-1.

http://sport.independent.co.uk/tennis/article331212.ece
 

156MPHserve

Professional
Kevin Patrick said:
thought this was funny(& I guess it doesn't break any atp rules)

Paul Haarhuis lifted the £58,000 winner-takes-all Masters Tennis prize at London's Royal Albert Hall yesterday. The Dutch doubles specialist - a 40-1 pre-tournament outsider - beat the defending champion Jim Courier 6-3, 7-6 in the final.

Haarhuis revealed he had also secured an additional bonus by staking "big bucks" on himself at 40-1.

http://sport.independent.co.uk/tennis/article331212.ece


Was gonna post but someone beat me to it! Poor Jim... lost to a no-namer... ouch.
 

pound cat

G.O.A.T.
"Haarhuis revealed he had also secured an additional bonus by staking "big bucks" on himself at 40-1"

LOL this is the most startling thing about this tour...and nobody cares whether players are betting on the outcome of their matches..the media, the tournament organizers, the other players. What a joke. I guess it shouldn't matter on the regular tour either.
 

timmyboy

Professional
The 1 thing i'm still confused as heck about his how the heck is jim courier not top seed on the senior tour? He can barely hold no.7 on the SENIOR tour and he's agassi's age, who is no. 7 on the ATP!
 

35ft6

Legend
timmyboy said:
The 1 thing i'm still confused as heck about his how the heck is jim courier not top seed on the senior tour? He can barely hold no.7 on the SENIOR tour and he's agassi's age, who is no. 7 on the ATP!
Agassi still trains like he's on the ATP tour, and I'm sure Courier isn't training nearly as hard. That would probably be the biggest reason.
 

callitout

Professional
Agree with 35, but also Couriers been retired for 5.5 years and was ranked in the 50's for most of his last year and a half on tour. So he's skills had significantly eroded even when he was still on tour. I have no reason to think he trains much at all anymore. When they were commenting on Krickstein playing a senior event they said he hardly plays outside of these exhibitions. May be the same deal with Courier.
 

!Tym

Hall of Fame
Actually, Courier never stopped playing after retiring unlike some of his seniors tour counterparts. Muster took a looong layoff from the game and put on 50lbs. Bruguera pretty much stopped playing for like a year too...I remember him getting a wild card into a challenger event to serve as a favor to the tournament director many months after he had retired, and he said he hadn't touched a racket since retiring.

Actually, that kind of story is not that uncommon. For players to lose interest in the sport for a year or two once they retire? It's happened to Sampras. It happened to Korda, who didn't touch a racket for two years or so after retiring. Becker said that the two years following retirement are the toughest, because you feel like one part of your life is dead and you don't know what to do with your life anymore, how with "normal" people when they get that age, their life is just beginning (i.e. getting promoted to middle management or what not); but for the retiring athlete it's like death and it's really tramatic emotionally and mentally, read depressing, dealing with it. No one wants to be that Al Bundy if you know what I mean. Because of this, it's I think understandable how even a guy like Becker in retirement can no longer muster the same fire and brimstone he used to when approaching a tennis match.

They say though, I think it was Courier, that you eventually start getting the itch to hit again as it's in your blood.

Courier certainly doesn't train like he used to, but he keeps in shape and hits more and is "into" tennis more so than a lot of his counterparts on the seniors tour now who seem to look at it as little more than a side hobby. I read that Courier takes the seniors tour more seriously than most, and actively trains for and targets events...albeit, of course, not like he used to. But the thing is, Courier was never the most talented guy out there. He's a guy who always relied more on trying more than others to get ahead. I think on the seniors tour, it's not that different, same analogy...albeit just that everyone's effort is scaled down a bit by proportion. During Courier's last years, he said he decided to retire, because he got to the point where he could no longer give it a 110% in practice anymore, and the day he knew he could no longer do that was the day he knew he had to quit; because he was never one of those people who could just go at something going through the motions and just hanging around.

Nevertheless, on the seniors tour; he's definitely one of the if not the most motivated guys out there regarding it. If the tour has any "full-time" players, he'd be the closest living embodiment of it. This is a guy who's willing to travel outside America to pursue this, and who else is there among the Americans who does that besides McEnroe? And even McEnroe doesn't play as much as Courier does in these events.

Did you see Bruguera-Courier from the Paris seniors final last year? Bruguera was VERY casual throughout, and really looked nothing like how he used to play. I mean he looked he was sipping pina colada out there, and showed very little intensity as far as him ever really digging deep in a point and looking to rip and inside out forehand or whatever. In fact, he didn't put that "tour" look on his face until the very last game to make sure he closed the match out when it looked like Courier might find a way to steal the second. It appeared kind of like someone putting on a mask for the closing act, because *clearly* that was not the look in his eyes nor body language/demeanor the entire points leading up to that.

Bruguera wasn't tanking, but he rarely looked to let it all hang out on the gruntometer like he used to either when he got "serious." Honestly, for the most part he seemed to play more like Santoro, like he was toying around, playing around, not taking things too seriously at all. He was constantly looking for opportunities to hit "cutesy" type drop shots, dink shots, angles, and drop volleys...instead of the typical inside-out forehand drill he used to be known for. He kept on smiling and seemed almost eerily relaxed this day (think Katie Holmes in one of her "moods").

Courier on the other hand was visibly straining, and actively trying to set up and bash his inside-out forehand constantly. He looked like he was trying TOO HARD in fact to make something happen that wasn't there. It looked like Courier kept on wanting to draw Bruguera into a slug fest more like how they used to play each other on tour, but Bruguera wouldn't "man up" and oblige and Courier was losing badly because of it and growing visibly more and more frustrated as the match wore on. He kept on trying to force the issue when Bruguera wasn't giving him anything to work with. It was like the slugger who keeps on trying to pull the ball into the cheap seats off marshmallows and changeups just off the plate when you keep on looking for the guy to "challenge you."

Several times, when momentum and the match seemed to be slipping away, Courier would make jokes with the crowd, Bruguera, or try and stall...i.e. at one point in the second, having the ball boy play for him. However, the thing to note, was that after this Connorsesque joking period at a pivotal moment in the match, the immediate intensity in Courier's eyes following that. He may have been joking with the crowd, but it was clear that he was trying to immediately capitalize on the next point and any impending lull and get back into the match.

But all in all, it just looked like a guy who was misfiring badly all day long because his muscles were just a little too tense.

Courier basically may not train quite as hard as he used to, but make no mistake he still takes winning seriously and more so than many of the other seniors guys.

I've also seen Becker on the seniors tour, and to me it's clear that while he's not tanking; the same fire's no longer there.

Of the guys I've seen on the seniors tour; Courier, Cash, and McEnroe seem to have that look in their eyes that they still take this pretty seriously and want to WIN. Sure, they ALL joke nowadays (must be a part of their contract, two joke per match minimum or they start getting assessed fines) and the fun and games are all nice, but at the end of the day, you can just see in the eyes of some of these guys that they want it a little more than the others.

As for Harhuis, betting on himself like that certainly has a way of bringing out the best in people...cough, cough. Smart guy.

Remind me to enter to the US Open next time and bet on myself against all odds. I will be counting the days to my great pay day like the steps to Shangri-la.
 

JoostT

New User
Paul Haarhuis is one of the organisers of the Delta tour event in the Netherlands. That in itself might explain why he plays. Besides, the Netherlands is a pretty big market...

Joost
 
Top