Holding/absorbing the ball

collotennis · Feb 26, 2017

Shroud said:
In fairness to Collo he did say to wait for the ball and i forgot about that and didnt get a chance to try it today. Maybe next time. Do i just wait past the time i would normally swing? How long??

Just time to catch when the ball is at the side of you around 45 degrees. If your semi open then more off the side to hip and if your more neutral stance then catch when the ball is off to the side to your front foot. Don't have any tension in your hands just like you wait to catch a ball with your hands.

collotennis · Feb 26, 2017

mad dog1 said:
I don't think it was described or explained in the best way as I mentioned before. And as I said above, tennis technique and instruction is very hard to convey on message board. Very easy to miscommunicate and misunderstand due to all the nuances and variables.

Spot on, I tried and if mis-understood as things are taking literally then so be it. But my goal was to make people aware and think about this important point about contact as I know it helps players improve.

collotennis · Feb 26, 2017

Shroud said:
Seriously you fellas say all the good player hit that way (what ever that way is) and well top players have highspeed video. Yet Collo says you cant see the holding on vid. I would think one could just point to a fed video of contact and say "time index 1:08-1:09" or something like that. Yet all i think i saw was one on the serve which doesnt have an incoming ball...

Have you tried practicing coming around the ball, it's what coaches mean when they want the student to shape the ball. The more shaping on the ball, coming around to the outside the more you will have a chance of gripping the ball. TRY IT

If you hit the ball too far in front and not to the side enough you have more of a direct collision and much harder to grip the ball as opposed to the side and in front which is more 45 degrees.

collotennis · Feb 26, 2017

collotennis said:
Have you tried practicing coming around the ball, it's what coaches mean when they want the student to shape the ball. The more shaping on the ball, coming around to the outside the more you will have a chance of gripping the ball. TRY IT

If you hit the ball too far in front and not to the side enough you have more of a direct collision and much harder to grip the ball as opposed to the side and in front which is more 45 degrees.

Look at these, that's 45 degrees, ball comes to the side to catch the ball on the strings but this won't happen if you don't keep your body oriented Long enough to the side so you need to have to have patience to wait until its meets you there. A lot of players have trouble meeting the ball at this angle as they pull there left arm away too early which changes the orientation of the body to intercept the ball more in front than the side -

collotennis · Feb 26, 2017

collotennis said:
Look at these, that's 45 degrees, ball comes to the side to catch the ball on the strings but this won't happen if you don't keep your body oriented Long enough to the side so you need to have to have patience to wait until its meets you there. A lot of players have trouble meeting the ball at this angle as they pull there left arm away too early which changes the orientation of the body to intercept the ball more in front than the side -

Hope that helps you see 45 degrees more, if your anxious to hit the ball you will probably hit it too early thus catching the ball too far in front and not waiting Long enough to the side

Shroud · Feb 26, 2017

collotennis said:
Have you tried practicing coming around the ball, it's what coaches mean when they want the student to shape the ball. The more shaping on the ball, coming around to the outside the more you will have a chance of gripping the ball. TRY IT

If you hit the ball too far in front and not to the side enough you have more of a direct collision and much harder to grip the ball as opposed to the side and in front which is more 45 degrees.

Like this??

RajS · Feb 26, 2017

I don't know... this thread is fascinating but sure is a mind bender! What does "catch" mean... to me, it's putting the racket in front without a backswing. You don't take a backswing to catch a ball! What does "absorb" mean... to me, it means you try to equalize the velocity of the ball with the velocity of the racket... which means the racket becomes almost stationary at contact, and then you try to push the ball away. Volleys and serve returns (for fast serves) kinda fit the bill here... but I don't see how this fits ground strokes where you have to take a good backswing to generate power and spin. I like the idea of accelerating closer to contact as I have mentioned earlier, since it puts more body behind the ball. Fascinating subject indeed... I wish I were 20 yrs younger!

collotennis · Feb 26, 2017

Shroud said:
Like this??

Good stuff, this picture below is great example of what I'm talking about. Doug king takes about this all the time. You want to shift your weight into the ball at 45. You notice where the girls left arm is, she has pulled it away too quickly for one and it's very easy to over rotate instead of going into the ball.

So again it all comes back to how Long are you keeping your body oriented to that 45 degree drive line as I move but be to that angle and wait to the ball hits the drive line to go into it or else you will shift your weight away from the ball and less into 45. Hope that make sense for you

collotennis · Feb 26, 2017

RajS said:
I don't know... this thread is fascinating but sure is a mind bender! What does "catch" mean... to me, it's putting the racket in front without a backswing. You don't take a backswing to catch a ball! What does "absorb" mean... to me, it means you try to equalize the velocity of the ball with the velocity of the racket... which means the racket becomes almost stationary at contact, and then you try to push the ball away. Volleys and serve returns (for fast serves) kinda fit the bill here... but I don't see how this fits ground strokes where you have to take a good backswing to generate power and spin. I like the idea of accelerating closer to contact as I have mentioned earlier, since it puts more body behind the ball. Fascinating subject indeed... I wish I were 20 yrs younger!

As I said the catch and absorb or hold or grip whichever term clicks with you happens by this ability to coil then time your uncoil when the ball comes to the side at the angle I have been mentioning.

This is easily done thinking of catching but if you want to try and hit the ball you can lose patience you will find you will rush into the shot thus being anxious. Do you get rushed when you waiting to catch a ball in your hands? You can have a big backswing through bigger coil but problem is a lot of players uncoil to early through not waiting and wanting and they swing fast and usually the hands get more tighter so by the time the ball touches the strings the hand is like a rock so non absorbant thus less chance of gripping the ball more chance of the ball bouncing off too early and no chance of touch or able to drive with the shoulder for directional control.

So remember it's very easy to catch a ball on the strings if you save your coil with the ball, the whole time you save your coil your hands should be more relaxed then tension will come in when you uncoil with the ball. Exactly the same as when you grasp the ball with your hands when catching a ball, you only grasp them once the ball comes into your hands. Why cant players just wait at the angle then uncoil when the ball reaches that point on the driveline. Why do players need to have any tension in the hands just use it for the uncoil so wait and wait till it land in your line to drive your weight into the ball and not away from the ball by over rotation too early.

JohnYandell · Feb 26, 2017

Shroud,
Ha! Your forehand is outdated! It shares the core commonalities of Fed, Novak, and Rafa. That sucks. Instead point your toes at the net and hit yourself in the chest with your hand on the followthrough.

Shroud · Feb 27, 2017

JohnYandell said:
Shroud,
Ha! Your forehand is outdated! It shares the core commonalities of Fed, Novak, and Rafa. That sucks. Instead point your toes at the net and hit yourself in the chest with your hand on the followthrough.

Come on John, everyone knows those guys are washed up...

JohnYandell · Feb 27, 2017

Shroud,
You means washed up as in still great right?

morobtennis · Feb 27, 2017

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
So that's precisely the source of my confusion: if I want to catch and absorb the ball on my strings during that drill, I must decelerate. At least for me, using "catch and absorb" is exactly the wrong way to describe what you're envisioning because I equate it with deceleration.

If instead you're talking about timing, I'm completely on board with the idea that timing your acceleration is critical: too soon and you lose power; too late and you miss your window of opportunity. In that sense, it's like the split-step: too soon and you're not quite in balance when the ball actually arrives; too late and...well, you're too late.

Very well said. My coach and mentor, Oscar Wegner, the architect of the modern technique, says to accelerate just before contact with the ball. Move the racquet slowly to the contact point (finding the ball), and then just before the strings begin to brush across the ball (feeling it), you accelerate with the hand up and across the back of the ball (finish it). And this is all accomplished with a relaxed, loose grip on the racquet handle.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sureshs · Feb 27, 2017

Shroud said:
perhaps. But he is on Oscars site as a legit MTM coach.

Was he wrongly announced as the winner?

collotennis · Feb 27, 2017

morobtennis said:
Very well said. My coach and mentor, Oscar Wegner, the architect of the modern technique, says to accelerate just before contact with the ball. Move the racquet slowly to the contact point (finding the ball), and then just before the strings begin to brush across the ball (feeling it), you accelerate with the hand up and across the back of the ball (finish it). And this is all accomplished with a relaxed, loose grip on the racquet handle.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The problem is a lot of players uncoil before They grip the ball thus your releasing all this potential with out the ball on the strings, grip and rip it is gold

Deleted member 742196 · Feb 27, 2017

MuthaF*#$!...page 22 and I still don't have a practical video of the OP demonstrating this Aha-tip on a groundstroke. I can do this, just another 9 pages to trawl through.

Deleted member 742196 · Feb 27, 2017

GREAT MuthF(*&$*&$@@@@@#$$$$!!!!!!

Page 31 and nothing. Absolutely nothing. This thread is worse then the long journey in Lord of the Rings.

For Christsakes OP, I've had issues with my Forehand ever since I started. Grasp the concept of "qualified source". You may well have the magic beans and recipe for perfect groundstrokes but nobody, absolutely nobody, is going to accord you credibility until you post a video of you hitting some groundstrokes. Would you take tennis advice from someone that didn't play it properly? Of course you would not.

You began this 31 God-forsaken pages ago, I believe all everyone is looking for is your credibility as an authority on sound stroke mechanics. Before you go off sprouting advice and tips [blended in with some condescension] consider establishing yourself first. We've all been at trying to learn tennis and have come across so many golden tips - while it's a tough audience, it is an audience you've willfully chosen to engage with.

Deleted member 742196 · Feb 27, 2017

*By the how, I've been in Singapore the past few days. Yesterday I was on court. This morning I was on court. There's been ample amount of good weather for footage.

mad dog1 · Feb 27, 2017

@Hydrocella, Hate to break it to you but there are no magic beans, quick fixes or miracle tips in tennis.

5263 · Feb 27, 2017

SystemicAnomaly said:
I According to Lindsey and (Rod) Cross in Technical Tennis on longer dwell times, "the ball will stay on the strings through a longer part of the arc of your swing both vertically and horizontally,

Seems to me you did a pretty good job here of describing the catch and hold in a tennis swing. I do realize you made sure to present this as a negative experience, but do you think it possible that a player could use it as a positive? I'd suggest they can and do.

5263 · Feb 27, 2017

mad dog1 said:
@Hydrocella, Hate to break it to you but there are no magic beans, quick fixes or miracle tips in tennis.

actually depends on what ails you..... many of us coaches have been able to administer quite a few quick fixes with major improvement results with some very subtle changes or "tips".

5263 · Feb 27, 2017

collotennis said:
Spot on, it's taking it literally where he mis-understands, so true.

also nobody seems to have the concept of catching without stopping or even retreating in the process. In baseball for example, we can see a player glove a ball with the glove moving into the ball's path and continuing on the glove path to flip it out or until the other hand grabs it for a throw. There no reason to assume that a caught item must ever come to full rest.

5263 · Feb 27, 2017

Shroud said:
Seriously you fellas say all the good player hit that way (what ever that way is) and well top players have highspeed video. Yet Collo says you cant see the holding on vid. .

Now you have from SA above a couple of posts at #1520, with an example from Lindsey and Cross of how a tennis ball can be held to the point of traveling on an arc and redirected.

purdyd · Feb 27, 2017

5263 said:
Seems to me you did a pretty good job here of describing the catch and hold in a tennis swing. I do realize you made sure to present this as a negative experience, but do you think it possible that a player could use it as a positive? I'd suggest they can and do.

Ok now I am confused. What is the catch and hold?

https://www.videotop.info/watch/watch/FX92UllVTt0

How about in this video. Can you freeze this video or any high speed video take a screen shot and show where you think the catch and grab is made?

I'm just trying to understand your definition.

Topspin Shot · Feb 27, 2017

morobtennis said:
Very well said. My coach and mentor, Oscar Wegner, the architect of the modern technique, says to accelerate just before contact with the ball. Move the racquet slowly to the contact point (finding the ball), and then just before the strings begin to brush across the ball (feeling it), you accelerate with the hand up and across the back of the ball (finish it). And this is all accomplished with a relaxed, loose grip on the racquet handle.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Godwin's Law of TT: Any thread going on long enough will eventually invoke Oscar Wegner.

sureshs · Feb 27, 2017

purdyd said:
Ok now I am confused. What is the catch and hold?

https://www.videotop.info/watch/watch/FX92UllVTt0

How about in this video. Can you freeze this video or any high speed video take a screen shot and show where you think the catch and grab is made?

I'm just trying to understand your definition.

That is the beauty of these terms. They are so vague that they can be force-fitted to anything you want, with the claim that they are symbolic aids to help in teaching.

Anyone arguing against it is bound to lose, almost by definition.

collotennis · Feb 27, 2017

5263 said:
Seems to me you did a pretty good job here of describing the catch and hold in a tennis swing. I do realize you made sure to present this as a negative experience, but do you think it possible that a player could use it as a positive? I'd suggest they can and do.

Hell yeah

collotennis · Feb 27, 2017

purdyd said:
Ok now I am confused. What is the catch and hold?

https://www.videotop.info/watch/watch/FX92UllVTt0

How about in this video. Can you freeze this video or any high speed video take a screen shot and show where you think the catch and grab is made?

I'm just trying to understand your definition.

You gotta understand that the catch is a spilt second so you don't get an un-controlled bounce off. It's not about will he do it now or will he not it's a must to control the ball but if miss-understood then ummmmm.

collotennis · Feb 27, 2017

sureshs said:
That is the beauty of these terms. They are so vague that they can be force-fitted to anything you want, with the claim that they are symbolic aids to help in teaching.

Anyone arguing against it is bound to lose, almost by definition.

Hope you do know every single TOP player has to absorb the ball for a spilt second or else they won't have control of the ball, actually maybe to come the think of it, are you taking absorbing literally like catching ?

collotennis · Feb 27, 2017

sureshs said:
That is the beauty of these terms. They are so vague that they can be force-fitted to anything you want, with the claim that they are symbolic aids to help in teaching.

Anyone arguing against it is bound to lose, almost by definition.

I see totally that you still miss-understand after this Long of the post, you know you have to absorb to have control right or else it would be impossible for the any TOP player to control their power. Every single shot they play has an element of hold for a milli second. But if you take it too literally I can totally understand why you don't get it

JohnYandell · Feb 27, 2017

You guys have established the longest running troll dialogue in the history of TW--and that is a stunning achievement. It's completely established: you have nothing productive to do.

collotennis · Feb 27, 2017

Their is players on here who get it as a result of not taking it literally. That seems to be the obstacle as to whether you get it or not.
There are no buts if you don't have some absorbation how the hell can you control the power. If you think otherwise I have to say what planet are you on. I believe it's near impossible for these TOP players to control pace if you don't have an element of hold. I'm in shock if you think otherwise, but won't be if you take things literally

collotennis · Feb 27, 2017

JohnYandell said:
You guys have established the longest running troll dialogue in the history of TW--and that is a stunning achievement. It's completely established: you have nothing productive to do.

Why is it all your comments are not productive, go figure

collotennis · Feb 27, 2017

sureshs said:
That is the beauty of these terms. They are so vague that they can be force-fitted to anything you want, with the claim that they are symbolic aids to help in teaching.

Anyone arguing against it is bound to lose, almost by definition.

Vague ha, you mean taking things literally. Actually I will state you have a masters in taking things literally, you have your throne. It All makes sense as to why you cant get your head around the purpose of this whole thread. Tell me, can you actually see the difference in the word catch with a racquet to using the hands or do you think exactly the same thing?

S&V-not_dead_yet · Feb 27, 2017

JohnYandell said:
You guys have established the longest running troll dialogue in the history of TW--and that is a stunning achievement. It's completely established: you have nothing productive to do.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

collotennis · Feb 27, 2017

collotennis said:
Why is it all your comments are not productive, go figure

Please tell me as I have stated to other posts you don't take things literally, if you do You will never ever understand the purpose of this thread, impossible. As I have said it's totally impossible for any of these TOP players to have that much pace yet control it without an element of hold/grip.

purdyd · Feb 27, 2017

collotennis said:
Hope you do know every single TOP player has to absorb the ball for a spilt second or else they won't have control of the ball, actually maybe to come the think of it, are you taking absorbing literally like catching ?

So play the videos and stop when the absorb occurs.

Take a screen shot and post it back here.

And what is a split second? A millisecond? 10 msec?

nothinButTennis · Feb 27, 2017

morobtennis said:
Very well said. My coach and mentor, Oscar Wegner, the architect of the modern technique, says to accelerate just before contact with the ball. Move the racquet slowly to the contact point (finding the ball), and then just before the strings begin to brush across the ball (feeling it), you accelerate with the hand up and across the back of the ball (finish it). And this is all accomplished with a relaxed, loose grip on the racquet handle.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have heard from Oscar, 5263 brushing "across the back of the ball", do you do this on FH Cross court only or even on DTL & inside-out?

S&V-not_dead_yet · Feb 27, 2017

collotennis said:
Their is players on here who get it as a result of not taking it literally. That seems to be the obstacle as to whether you get it or not.
There are no buts if you don't have some absorbation how the hell can you control the power. If you think otherwise I have to say what planet are you on. I believe it's near impossible for these TOP players to control pace if you don't have an element of hold. I'm in shock if you think otherwise, but won't be if you take things literally

I've come up with a counter-experiment: assume the ball is suspended in space [ie immobile]. "Catch/hold/absorb" implies movement of the incoming object. Therefore, you can't catch something that isn't moving. And yet, if I compared the strokes of a player hitting this suspended ball to strokes of the same player hitting a moving one, they would look the same. If there's no difference in stroke and the suspended ball involves no catch, then the moving ball also involves no catch. QED.

Anyways, that's my literal, sequential, left-brain rebuttal. My right-brain is currently involved with a Wagner opera and is unavailable.

purdyd · Feb 27, 2017

collotennis said:
Please tell me as I have stated to other posts you don't take things literally, if you do You will never ever understand the purpose of this thread, impossible. As I have said it's totally impossible for any of these TOP players to have that much pace yet control it without an element of hold/grip.

Are you saying to absorb is not an event in the swing timeline or even a physical thing that can be observed?

It is a metaphysical thing? A thought?

collotennis · Feb 27, 2017

purdyd said:
So play the videos and stop when the absorb occurs.

Take a screen shot and post it back here.

And what is a split second? A millisecond? 10 msec?

Stop and think for second, before you ask this. You really don't get it do you. So let me get this you expect literally to see a catch/ hold. Why is it the players who get it don't ask this, ummmmm because they don't take it literally. So you honestly think that to control the ball there is no element of hold. This cannot be seriously ha.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Feb 27, 2017

purdyd said:
So play the videos and stop when the absorb occurs.

Take a screen shot and post it back here.

And what is a split second? A millisecond? 10 msec?

He uses "split-second" to imply an event that lasts for a very short duration because, during most human experiences, split-second is. But for other events, split-second is an eternity [like the 4ms dwell time of ball on strings].

In this sense, it's like someone claiming he can 100% of the time see the ball as it lands near the BL which he calls out. The human visual system cannot reliably capture such events; you may get lucky and capture a snapshot at the moment of impact or you may be a tenth of a second too early or too late. More reason to give one's opponent the benefit of the doubt. The person who believes he has perfect capture is fooling himself.

collotennis · Feb 27, 2017

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
I've come up with a counter-experiment: assume the ball is suspended in space [ie immobile]. "Catch/hold/absorb" implies movement of the incoming object. Therefore, you can't catch something that isn't moving. And yet, if I compared the strokes of a player hitting this suspended ball to strokes of the same player hitting a moving one, they would look the same. If there's no difference in stroke and the suspended ball involves no catch, then the moving ball also involves no catch. QED.

Anyways, that's my literal, sequential, left-brain rebuttal. My right-brain is currently involved with a Wagner opera and is unavailable.

Literally you have a masters in literally, come on think about. You tell me if you don't have an element of give with the ball how the hell can you control the incoming ball at what ever pace.

collotennis · Feb 27, 2017

purdyd said:
Are you saying to absorb is not an event in the swing timeline or even a physical thing that can be observed?

It is a metaphysical thing? A thought?

To observe ummmm, to feel yes. As I stated earlier do you really think if you go fast into a ball without any 'give' you will be able to control the ball, that to me is impossible. A stroke is played where you don't hit through the ball but uncoil so that moment of uncoil you can grip the ball or else you will have a uncontrolled bounce off.

I'm really really surprised by now someone would not quite get it, ummm what is the obstacle that your confused about.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Feb 27, 2017

collotennis said:
Stop and think for second, before you ask this. You really don't get it do you. So let me get this you expect literally to see a catch/ hold. Why is it the players who get it don't ask this, ummmmm because they don't take it literally. So you honestly think that to control the ball there is no element of hold. This cannot be seriously ha.

I can't prove there is no hold occurring. Neither can you prove that it IS occurring. I just know that I can't see it when I look at other people hitting and I can't sense it when I hit [which either means I'm not doing it or I do it without being aware of it] and if I can't sense it nor can I come up with a rational explanation that meshes with reality, I reject that explanation and look for another.

If you don't want people taking you literally, then you need to tailor your message to your audience: some people are more literal than others. Just like different people learn different ways [written word vs demonstration vs experimentation vs audio, etc]. You as a teacher have to figure out the best way to target a student. It's what I do all of the time when trying to explain a math problem and it's what you're NOT doing here. I certainly don't tell my student "Seriously? You can't figure out the Binomial Expansion Theorom?? LOL; what is wrong with you? You're the worst math student in this group!"

S&V-not_dead_yet · Feb 27, 2017

collotennis said:
Literally you have a masters in literally, come on think about. You tell me if you don't have an element of give with the ball how the hell. An you control the incoming ball at what ever pace.

I never said there was no element of give. I objected to your claim that you could react to a 4ms dwell time. That has been my most significant objection to your logic from the beginning.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Feb 27, 2017

collotennis said:
I'm really really surprised by now someone would not quite get it...

I'm really, really surprised that you could be really, really surprised after 31 pages and a dozen posters questioning your explanation.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Feb 27, 2017

collotennis said:
Literally you have a masters in literally

MoLI [Master's of Literal Interpretation]; has a nice right to it.

collotennis · Feb 27, 2017

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
I can't prove there is no hold occurring. Neither can you prove that it IS occurring. I just know that I can't see it when I look at other people hitting and I can't sense it when I hit [which either means I'm not doing it or I do it without being aware of it] and if I can't sense it nor can I come up with a rational explanation that meshes with reality, I reject that explanation and look for another.

If you don't want people taking you literally, then you need to tailor your message to your audience: some people are more literal than others. Just like different people learn different ways [written word vs demonstration vs experimentation vs audio, etc]. You as a teacher have to figure out the best way to target a student. It's what I do all of the time when trying to explain a math problem and it's what you're NOT doing here. I certainly don't tell my student "Seriously? You can't figure out the Binomial Expansion Theorom?? LOL; what is wrong with you? You're the worst math student in this group!"

Of course I don't use the word seriously on the court, You and a few others bring that side out of me

S&V-not_dead_yet · Feb 27, 2017

collotennis said:
Of course I don't use the word seriously on the court, You and a few others bring that side out of me

Maybe your students never question you or you have no literal thinkers. Either way, that's a good thing [for you] because your "bedside manner" leaves something to be desired.

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