skaj
Legend
When exactly do you think she became slower compared to 1989?
When exactly do you think she became slower compared to 1989?
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
I think second half of 92. She could also slow down when she lost confidence and became stiff, but this was different. I don't think she had quite the same flat out speed as before. 92 was when injuries became a big 'part' of her career.
skaj
Legend
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Eh, nobody said she became slow in absolute terms. But look at the point here at 14:39.
She runs around her backhand for an inside out forehand. Seles opens up the court with a down the line into Graf's forehand corner. But Graf not only gets across all the way from the other end but hits a very powerful cross court forehand that forces a weak ball from Seles for Graf to finish the point. THAT is the movement she lost later. In the point you posted, Sanchez had left the court wide open so Graf only had to place the ball. In the point I posted above, she has to not only get there in time but hit a powerful shot which she is able to with ridiculous ease.
Not only in this point but on a number of occasions, Graf had no problem defending her forehand corner and in fact punishing Seles for attacking that side.
skaj
Legend
She doesn't look less fast. As for the movement, she didn't lose it as much as Seles became deadlier with her shots and did not give her as much time.
In the point with Arantxa, she had to get there in time too, otherwise she wouldn't be able to even touch the ball let alone do something special with it.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
To you and I disagree. She clearly lost the ability to cover the forehand corner the way she used to be able to. You don't understand the difference between walloping a forcing shot or winner from the baseline and placing the ball from closer to the net. You don't need to be as much in balance for the latter nor do you need much racquet preparation. For that 1989 shot, Graf needed to do both - get there well in time but also be lined up and ready to make a shot as if in rally hitting (which is what it is, except on the run) otherwise you can't produce such a fast forehand at a shortish cross court angle. And all this on grass where a hard, flat shot keeps low and it's harder to get underneath the ball. Graf not only managed all that there but did so with ease. Nobody then on the women's side would have been able to but Sampras used to similarly cover the forehand corner efficiently. The more Graf's ability to do that dwindled, the more she found it harder to fend off competition.
Just to be clear (and I have said this a hundred times in this thread but when people have agendas, they don't bother reading properly): I am NOT saying had Graf only not lost that little bit of footspeed, she would have never lost to Seles. In fact in the very post of mine that you quoted, I mentioned that by the time of Seles' stabbing, Seles had improved while Graf was not quite as potent as 1988-89. Both things happened in tandem. To pretend that Graf's greater mileage at that point had no bearing at all on her abilities is simply a Selestial myth, much like the Nadalite one that pretends Fed was equally as good in 2008 as in 2006. No he wasn't. Nadal clearly was better in 2008 than 2006. But that's why it's a what-if. We don't know the answer to that hypothetical though we can reasonably conclude that peak Seles/peak Nadal if aged the same as peak Graf/peak Fed would provide a challenge they didn't face in 1988-89/2004-06 respectively.
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skaj
Legend
And she doesn't look faster to you, videos are there, other people can make their own judgments.
Not sure where exactly did you see that I don't understand the difference?
Your second paragraph has even less to do with my post.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Because you say if she didn't move fast, she wouldn't be able to get to the ball. But just getting to the ball isn't always enough. In the Sanchez point, Graf's legs are astride. She has to run full tilt to get there. In the 1989 point, she is not only there in time to prepare for and hit a massive cross court, she loses no time in recovering and running back to her backhand corner. There is no overrunning at all. So that means at THAT time, Graf's movement was so good she had speed to spare even after being fast enough to run the length of the baseline to make a cross court. That was not the case later. Even in the famous Wimbledon '92 point where she shows incredible mobility to make it up and down the baseline, she has to run at full tilt to make that forehand.
skaj
Legend
She wouldn't be able to get to that ball. She had less time to get to that ball than to those from the 1989 video, that was the point.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
But the instance I mentioned from 1989 isn't even the fastest she could move in 1989. For which I gave clear explanations as to why. Why don't you come up with an example from the early 90s of Graf moving across the length of the baseline to hit a cross court forcer, particularly against a hard, flat ball down the line, with the other player at the baseline covering cross court and not at the net leaving wide open spaces? Did she hit cross court winners in the 90s? Sure as hell. But she was usually moving from the center line to cover those. Which is why this point immediately stood out to me.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
If you really want to see an example from the late 80s of tracking down a drop shot, here you go. At 0:34, she's deep behind the baseline having tracked down a lob but is still able to run back past the service line as well as diagonally to track down the drop shot and hit it for a winner. Again, this is grass. Have to use shorter steps, need more balance to make the same distance as on a hard court:
skaj
Legend
Then why did you mention that one? My point was that she did not lose significant amount of speed at 23, your explanation is for something else. Why would I search for those (your)examples?
skaj
Legend
Doesn't look faster than in the one I posted, au contraire. But if "grass is the problem", 34:49:
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
No, of course running from behind the baseline diagonally into the other corner and inside the service box doesn't look faster to you than running from well inside the baseline across and finishing still behind the service line. With that, I will leave you to your alternative facts.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
No, my explanation is for that same thing. You call any detailed technical analysis as something else so you can dodge it and cling onto your alternative facts. Not my problem.
skaj
Legend
I live you to yours.
skaj
Legend
Dodge what? I said she was as fast, posted a video, you posted a video with a different movement example and "analysed" that. I have even explained that(post#105).
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Dude, just saying over and over it's not as fast does not make it analysis. Nor does it make it the truth. You said absolutely nothing about the movement required specifically to get across the baseline from the backhand to forehand corner. Nor anything for that matter to explain why it would somehow require more movement for a player to get from inside the baseline to behind the service line albeit past doubles alley as opposed to running all the way from behind the baseline in the backhand corner to the forehand corner inside service line. You just saying it doesn't look faster to you is not analysis of any sort.
skaj
Legend
I did not analyse anything, I posted a video. I wasn't talking about movement overall but speed, which is distance over time.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
lol, what is this even, man? It's ok, don't tie yourself in knots.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
True, but that will not stop those looking for any reason for Seles' downslide, other than her own ability.
skaj
Legend
Which part don't you understand this time? The speed equation, that is learned in primary school?
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
No, the part where you take five days to make the mother of all comebacks. Enough.
skaj
Legend
What are you talking about now? You have a problem because I have a life and I don't visit this forum every day?
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Eh, if you really had a life, you wouldn't revisit a topic after five days just to make a stupid one line retort about speed. Get off your high horse. It's not my problem if you still want to get even in a debate and can't let go after five days. I am not interested in restarting this debate all over after five days. If you didn't get it in the intervening time, you're not going to get it now so don't sweat it.
skaj
Legend
Is there anything you do understand? I will explain how things work. You log in when you find time to log in and there are notifications waiting for you; you reply to those if you find time. Nobody is "on their high horse", or "getting even in a debate", I just reply to what I read. It usually concerns tennis, although some people try to change the subject with ad hominem comments for some reason.
And I certainly don't yearn for more of your unintelligent answers and for explaining what is wrong with them over and over, so I have absolutely no problem with the fact that you gave up on talking about Graf's speed. Good for you.
I liked Seles more during their pre-stabbing rivalry because I couldn't stand the media making up excuses for Graf whenever she lost, there was always something "bothering" her, either her dad, bad mood or her little finger on the left hand. From what I remember Seles went through tough times as well due to her dad's cancer until he passed but I can't remember it was ever used as an excuse. Naturally Graf might have had a little more talent but I believe to this day that Seles would have owned Graf throughout 93-96 and even beat her at Wimbledon at least once. I still can't believe that one damn psycho basically killed off the most interesting rivalry that ever happened to the WTA because it was more intense than Evert-Navratilova at that point
Some facts here:
Seles would have owned Graf: impossible. Even during her peak, her record against Graf is 50/50. Graf lost more matches to other players as she was already going though a losing streak. During her 25 months bad patch, she lost 7 matches to Sabatini (and won just 1) and 6 matches to Sanchez. So this statement can only come from people who did not watch tennis then and have only read about Seles
Without taking any sympathy away for what Seles had to go through, The knife would, as per the medical report, was a very minor injury which healed very quickly.
Seles was just 19 years, 2 months old when she beat Graf at the 1993 Australian Open and was clearly making key improvements to her game at the time, including a beefed up serve, a better net game, and stepping into the court more. We have no idea how much more she could have improved if she weren't stabbed.
We don't know for sure like many other things in tennis if we start discussing ifs and buts, but idea, we sure do. As I have presented the reasons involved in Steffi's losses (she was already losing to other players). The same player with whom she won easily and also won alater, were defeating her during that bad patch. Did sabatini get stabbed? No.
Plus the medical report of Seles reconfirmed that it was a minor wound.
Am not saying that I have no sympathy for Seles, and I remember the day she was stabbed and how sorry I was. But I think her incident has been blown out of proportion.
Agreed. That's why I was responding to your comment that Seles owning Graf would have been "impossible." My response was that we don't know b/c Seles was clearly improving at the time of the stabbing and had beaten a version of Graf at the 1993 Australian Open who was playing better than she had the past couple of years.
flyingforehands
Rookie
Hmmm a 22 slam winner vs a 9 slam winner. I wonder which is better. And even comparing just their best years, Graf's 88-89 and 95-96 were clearly better and more dominant than Seles's 91-92 as well.
That's what happened with the stabbing. The OP is asking what would have happened had Seles not been stabbed.
flyingforehands
Rookie
I prefer to operate in reality not hypotheticals. As my responses in the Roddick thread we were both in, and my obvious dismissiveness of the fantasies of his potential 8-10 slam career without Federer indicate. Of course a stabbing is a different hypothetical than imagining a much better player of your era not existing, but the same premise in how I think applies. Seles's career without the stabbing is anyones guess. What I do know is as things stand now she is not only light years behind in achievements, but even in peak level play (Graf of 88/89 and 95/96 > Seles of 91-92 as their results and Graf's higher dominance over the field those years indicate).
Even if I go the hypothetical route though Seles's post stabbing career, and her obvious difficulties with the big hitters of the late 90s onwards that would have prevented much further victories after Graf mostly stopped winning post 96, was definitely not strong enough to say with any confidence her surpassing Graf career wise either. Not for me anyway.
OTOH, what evidence do we have that Graf would have taken back her crown from Seles had she not been stabbed? Seles was markedly improving at age 19 at the time of the stabbing, and in ways that gave her specific advantages over Graf (as seen in the '93 AO final).
flyingforehands
Rookie
There isn't evidence in either direction, and frankly I don't care much. The Graf-Seles hypothetical has always been one of the most drawn out, boring, and tedious topics to me. So I go by both career results- Graf light years ahead, and their peak years, Graf of 88, 89, 95, 96 vs Seles 91, 92, and even there Graf is clearly ahead. More than enough for me.
I am not a Graf fan but people debate her vs Serena as the GOAT. Does anyone debate Seles as the GOAT? Yeah that is what I thought. Even when you talk about highest peak level of a woman people debate Navratilova's 82-84, Serena's best, some of Graf's best years, and maybe Connolly's peak before the horse back incident. Never heard early 90s Seles come into the discussion even on that.
I'm not sure how you say "[t]here isn't evidence in either direction." Seles dominated the big tournaments from the 1990 YEC-1993 AO, winning 7/9 Majors and 3/3 YECs vs. 2 Majors for Graf. Mere months before the stabbing, Seles won the '93 AO final against Graf, displaying a bigger serve, an improved net game, and a willingness to step into the court and take the ball earlier. She was winning every match for months, except for a third set tiebreaker loss in the Paris final to Navratilova when she had the flu.
I get the argument that we don't and can't know what would have happened had Seles not been stabbed. But all of the evidence in early 1993 pointed toward Seles continuing to dominate the WTA tour.
flyingforehands
Rookie
Since dominating 2 years is never evidence of continued dominance. People have been more dominant than Seles was those 2 years for 2-4 years and not maintained it further. Seles's post stabbing performances, her dads illness and eventual death of cancer which began in early 94, her increasing propensity for injuries, her lack of athleticsm which is not condusive to super longevity both as an overall career or for a peak, are all reasons to question. Plus that her actual head to head vs Graf is not amazing, even during her 91-early 93 dominance (2-3 losing record in fact during this time. So no I don't see any concrete evidence in one direction or another, so again I deal in what exists in performance, none which favor Seles as is, not even her peak performances vs Graf's peak ones in her career, never mind their overall career.
What other players in the Open Era have won 6+ Majors in 2 years? Graf. Navratilova. Federer. Is there anyone else? These are among the greatest players of all time, and Seles had her 2 year period at a younger age than any of them. This would seem to indicate she was destined for great things.
Any tennis player who can not recover from a doctor certified near to benign wound doesn’t deserve to be a champion. Fact check: just in a couple of days of stabbing, seles heard the news that her father has cancer. She chose to remain silent just like she did a year before when she skipped Wimbledon and decided to gain maximum sympathies by letting people like buscemi believe that the psychological trauma from the wound was hard to recover from. She revealed this (the fact that her fathers news was the most horrific and stressful event of her life time)in 1997 at one of the occasions of her fathers remembrance and can even be checked in her autobiography.
The question is that when seles’s stress of her fathers news was too much for her to even play tennis, kudos to Graf who continued playing when her family was going through a difficult time 2 years before that when she started losing matches.
I think the vast majority of people would say that Seles's peak had yet to come when she was stabbed at age 19-and-change while clearly making improvements to key parts of her game.
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Vast majority? You did a survey? Do watch their matches and if you plan to do a survey, include people who were old enough in that time to watch their matches.
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Seles couldn't even win Wimbledon. Obviously Graf
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