The argument for not upping tension on tie-offs

sstchur · Apr 22, 2010

First, let me state that I am NOT trying to start a war here.

I just have a question for those who do NOT up tension on tie offs.

Is that argument that:

A. If you cinch up your knots correctly, there will be no tension loss, and therefore it is not necessary.

or

B. The outer strings rarely contact the ball, and therefore it is not necessary.

Or something else?

On a somewhat related note, on certain racquet patterns, particularly Prince and Babolat that tie for tie offs on a cross, I find there is not much room to do that arching motion Yulitle talks about. And in such cases, I find it considerably more difficult to cinch the knot up well. Anyone else experience this? Any tips for how to deal with it?

(The more racquets I string, the more I appreciate my Fischers; not only a joy to place with, but a joy to string as well -- but I digress!)

drakulie · Apr 22, 2010

sstchur said:
On a somewhat related note, on certain racquet patterns, particularly Prince and Babolat that tie for tie offs on a cross, I find there is not much room to do that arching motion Yulitle talks about. And in such cases, I find it considerably more difficult to cinch the knot up well. Anyone else experience this? Any tips for how to deal with it?

what type of knot are you using???

I use a parnell for the most part. However, in tight spaces, such as the one you are describing I use what I refer to as a 1 and a half hitch. (many are now referring to it as a Pro Knot, or Wilson knot.)

It is very similar to the Parnell Knot, but is a bit smaller, therefore, easier to use in tight spaces.

edit: In the following video, you could see the stringer using one: (4:30)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VC0Q-ZXJ9Y&feature=channel

Chris Rizutto · Apr 22, 2010

If you have somebody that likes their strings tensioned very high. I never go beyond 5 or 8 pounds beyond the max recommended tension for the racquet. You can see the frame stretch and I think it could damage it over time maybe only after a few times.

I do always increase 10 pounds over for tension loss at each knot on my racquet but my tension is 48 on a K90.

sstchur · Apr 22, 2010

drakulie said:
what type of knot are you using???

I use a parnell for the most part. However, in tight spaces, such as the one you are describing I use what I refer to as a 1 and a half hitch. (many are now referring to it as a Pro Knot, or Wilson knot.)

It is very similar to the Parnell Knot, but is a bit smaller, therefore, easier to use in tight spaces.

edit: In the following video, you could see the stringer using one: (4:30)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VC0Q-ZXJ9Y&feature=channel

Typically I use Parnell also.

sstchur · Apr 22, 2010

sstchur said:
Typically I use Parnell also.

I watched the video. It looks like very similar to a Parnell, almost like the only different is not going under and through the loop, but just through the loop?

So that's a fine alternative to Parnell? It can be used for any tie off? Why not use it all the time?

drakulie · Apr 22, 2010

sstchur said:
So that's a fine alternative to Parnell? It can be used for any tie off? Why not use it all the time?

Just preference.

However, I use the parnell because it is a bit bulkier. This one I use only in tight spaces.

David123 · Apr 22, 2010

drakulie said:
what type of knot are you using???

I use a parnell for the most part. However, in tight spaces, such as the one you are describing I use what I refer to as a 1 and a half hitch. (many are now referring to it as a Pro Knot, or Wilson knot.)

It is very similar to the Parnell Knot, but is a bit smaller, therefore, easier to use in tight spaces.

edit: In the following video, you could see the stringer using one: (4:30)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VC0Q-ZXJ9Y&feature=channel

I don't understand how he ties that knot? why not just tie a double half hitch? and what tool is he using at the end?

drakulie · Apr 22, 2010

^^In my opinion, that knot, along with the parnell, are way better than a double half hitch. But again, David, it is just preference.

The tool at the end is called a Cam Action Clamp.

You could see a photo of it here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=260175

(post # 2)

David123 · Apr 22, 2010

isn't the double half hitch easier to tie? and oh how much is it and is it just used to straightening the strings?

drakulie · Apr 22, 2010

David123 said:
isn't the double half hitch easier to tie?

No, they are about the same.

David123 said:
and oh how much is it and is it just used to straightening the strings?

How much is what?????

David123 · Apr 22, 2010

the tool to straighten the strings. And does the parnell hold doesn't let as much pressure out? Also i find that sometimes when i tie the double half hitch, the outer string (string that passes through the gromets) is loose at times. What can i do to make sure it's not loose? When i pull on it from the knot it tightens but then as i go to tie of the knot it becomes springy again but not to the same extent. Is this supposed to happen? Is it the same with the parnell?

sstchur · Apr 22, 2010

drakulie said:
^^In my opinion, that knot, along with the parnell, are way better than a double half hitch. But again, David, it is just preference.

The tool at the end is called a Cam Action Clamp.

You could see a photo of it here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=260175

(post # 2)

drakulie: Have any thoughts on the "PC" knot? http://www.youtube.com/yulitle#p/u/2/-X8qYGHOdmQ

It looks very easy to tie and looks nice when it's done. I've never tried it, but I might...

David123 · Apr 22, 2010

Never heard of the PC knot ill give the vid a look now

David123 · Apr 22, 2010

hmm.. i don't know double half hitch looks easier to me :S

drakulie · Apr 22, 2010

David123 said:
the tool to straighten the strings.

the tool the guy is using to straighten the strings is a blunt awl.

sstchur said:
drakulie: Have any thoughts on the "PC" knot? http://www.youtube.com/yulitle#p/u/2/-X8qYGHOdmQ

It looks very easy to tie and looks nice when it's done. I've never tried it, but I might...

Looks very similar to the 1 1/2 I use, and is being used in the video I provided. Looks clean.

Don't really have any thoughts as to how good/bad it is as I don't use it.

Let us know your thoughts if you do decide to use it.

David123 · Apr 22, 2010

how much is a blunt awl? and And does the parnell hold doesn't let as much pressure out? Also i find that sometimes when i tie the double half hitch, the outer string (string that passes through the gromets) is loose at times. What can i do to make sure it's not loose? When i pull on it from the knot it tightens but then as i go to tie of the knot it becomes springy again but not to the same extent. Is this supposed to happen? Is it the same with the parnell?

drakulie · Apr 22, 2010

David123 said:
how much is a blunt awl?

you could buy one for about $6.00.

David123 said:
does the parnell hold doesn't let as much pressure out?

Yes, which is why I use it.

David123 said:
Also i find that sometimes when i tie the double half hitch, the outer string (string that passes through the gromets) is loose at times. What can i do to make sure it's not loose? When i pull on it from the knot it tightens but then as i go to tie of the knot it becomes springy again but not to the same extent. Is this supposed to happen? Is it the same with the parnell?

This is why I don't use this knot.

David123 · Apr 22, 2010

oh haha thanks for your answers

and yeah i guess ill switch to the parnell lol.

jim e · Apr 22, 2010

David123 said:
oh haha thanks for your answers and yeah i guess ill switch to the parnell lol.

The Parnell knot is a good knot to use, and if you use a starting clamp to start your crosses, it will suffice for most applications, but the PC knot works in tight areas, like for some cross string tie offs where it ties off right next to a main string and there is very little room for even a Parnell, and the PC knot works nice in those situations.Both these knots cinch up nice, so there is very little slack in the string to lose much tension.

sstchur · Apr 22, 2010

I just realized that this thread is kind of off track from my original question, which was:

Do those who do NOT up tension for tie-offs, justify it because

A) Those strings rarely contact the ball

or

B) A correctly tired knot will not lose any tensions?

Note that I am not necessarily saying I agree with either A or B (or that I disagree). I'm just interested to know what the justification is for not upping tension on tie offs?

David123 · Apr 22, 2010

jim e said:
The Parnell knot is a good knot to use, and if you use a starting clamp to start your crosses, it will suffice for most applications, but the PC knot works in tight areas, like for some cross string tie offs where it ties off right next to a main string and there is very little room for even a Parnell, and the PC knot works nice in those situations.Both these knots cinch up nice, so there is very little slack in the string to lose much tension.

Thanks for this. And sorry for taking away from your thread SS, but i have one last question. What if a parnell knot does fit everywhere in the racket should i just use it? and can i use a pc knot where theres a lot of room?

jim e · Apr 22, 2010

David123 said:
Thanks for this. And sorry for taking away from your thread SS, but i have one last question. What if a parnell knot does fit everywhere in the racket should i just use it? and can i use a pc knot where theres a lot of room?

You don't want to use a Parnell as a starting knot as it possibly can pull through a grommet, although the USRSA stance says any knot that works and holds is acceptable.The Parnell is a great finishing knot, and the PC is smaller so it works where there is limited space. You as a stringer can use any knot that you want, just be sure it holds well.

Dags · Apr 22, 2010

If you haven't seen it yet, YULitle gives his explanation in one of his videos:

FAQ # 1

It's the second question, approximately 2 minutes in.

David123 · Apr 22, 2010

yeah i am gona use a starting knot. But i probably won't use one anymore as i will be getting a starting clamp, and will just tie off end knots, so ill always use the parnell from now on.

jim e · Apr 22, 2010

David123 said:
yeah i am gona use a starting knot. But i probably won't use one anymore as i will be getting a starting clamp, and will just tie off end knots, so ill always use the parnell from now on.

If you do that, be sure to give yourself some extra string for the cross strings, as a little more is needed as compared to using a starting knot, as you will need to tension that beginning cross string to get rid of the clamp and tie off. Most sets of string there should be no issue, but if you cut from a reel, do not cut the cross string short, as a little more is needed over what most patterns list.That little more depends on your machine, and how much string it takes to reach the tension head.

Lsmkenpo · Apr 22, 2010

sstchur said:
I just realized that this thread is kind of off track from my original question, which was:

Do those who do NOT up tension for tie-offs, justify it because

A) Those strings rarely contact the ball

or

B) A correctly tired knot will not lose any tensions?

Note that I am not necessarily saying I agree with either A or B (or that I disagree). I'm just interested to know what the justification is for not upping tension on tie offs?

A&B are both good.

The best reason is this, IMO ,and why I don't do it , the frame is already low powered away from the sweetspot towards the outside mains.

Putting these mains at even higher tension further reduces the power on off center shots, basically making the sweetspot feel even smaller.

The real question should be why would someone want to make the racquet's sweetspot feel smaller by upping tension on outside mains?

jim e · Apr 22, 2010

Lsmkenpo said:
A&B are both good.

The best reason is this, IMO ,and why I don't do it , the frame is already low powered away from the sweetspot towards the outside mains.

Putting these mains at even higher tension further reduces the power on off center shots, basically making the sweetspot feel even smaller.

The real question should be why would someone want to make the racquet's sweetspot feel smaller by upping tension on outside mains?

Increasing the tie off strings do not put those strings at a higher tension as compared to the remainder of the job, it actually places the tension closer to the reference tension to begin with.So they are not at a higher tension in comparison to the remainder of the strings as the above poster posted!

Even a properly cinched up knot will still lose some tension when the clamp is released no matter what knot that you tie, no matter what anyone will tell you all knots have some drawback once the clamp is released, anyone saying differently is giving you some real BS.

With increasing the tie offs all you are doing is placing the tension of those strings at a closer tension to the rest of the strings.After your mains are in place, just pluck them, and if you increase the 10% then pluck them, as the end mains are smaller it should sound just a slight higher pitch over the adjacent string.

By increasing the tie offs it keeps the end main strings straighter due to the offset weave of the adjacent mains.

Its the reason why just about every high end machine has that nice knot button there in the first place, to increase the tension by 10%. To compensate for the knot drawback.

Many tour stringers have followed this practice for some time.

Many customers will pull on those end main strings as a way to judge your job, as that is all they know to do. Yes I know that the end mains will feel loser due to the offset weave of the adjacent strings, and yes I know that you do not hit with those strings, but I do know customers do pull on those strings, maybe not in front of you, but later they will, and will judge you by this, I had customers do this 40 years ago(yes I upped the tension on tie offs even back in the woodie days), and customers still do this today.Some say they educate their customers, but you would have to explain why those strings feel looser to all of your customers as you would have no idea how many tug on those strings later and will judge you that way.

All this does is make the string closer to the reference tension as the remainder of the job, after all you would not decrease the end mains on a one piece job would you (unless you are stringing a proportional string job).

It does no harm.

Bottom line is whatever you do , be consistant in your choice, so each job is the same, no correct way on this as each have their own reasons for and against.

Lsmkenpo · Apr 23, 2010

jim e said:
Increasing the tie off strings do not put those strings at a higher tension as compared to the remainder of the job, it actually places the tension closer to the reference tension to begin with.So they are not at a higher tension in comparison to the remainder of the strings as the above poster posted!

Even a properly cinched up knot will still lose some tension when the clamp is released no matter what knot that you tie, no matter what anyone will tell you all knots have some drawback once the clamp is released, anyone saying differently is giving you some real BS.

With increasing the tie offs all you are doing is placing the tension of those strings at a closer tension to the rest of the strings.After your mains are in place, just pluck them, and if you increase the 10% then pluck them, as the end mains are smaller it should sound just a slight higher pitch over the adjacent string.

By increasing the tie offs it keeps the end main strings straighter due to the offset weave of the adjacent mains.

Its the reason why just about every high end machine has that nice knot button there in the first place, to increase the tension by 10%. To compensate for the knot drawback.

Many tour stringers have followed this practice for some time.

Many customers will pull on those end main strings as a way to judge your job, as that is all they know to do. Yes I know that the end mains will feel loser due to the offset weave of the adjacent strings, and yes I know that you do not hit with those strings, but I do know customers do pull on those strings, maybe not in front of you, but later they will, and will judge you by this, I had customers do this 40 years ago(yes I upped the tension on tie offs even back in the woodie days), and customers still do this today.Some say they educate their customers, but you would have to explain why those strings feel looser to all of your customers as you would have no idea how many tug on those strings later and will judge you that way.

All this does is make the string closer to the reference tension as the remainder of the job, after all you would not decrease the end mains on a one piece job would you (unless you are stringing a proportional string job).

It does no harm.

Bottom line is whatever you do , be consistant in your choice, so each job is the same, no correct way on this as each have their own reasons for and against.

No, not quite using a Parnell and cinched up properly you will not lose a full 10% tension on the tie offs, that is a fallacy, plain and simple, if you are losing 10% your technique is flawed.

Secondly, the majority of the time this is done is because of ignorance not someone striving for consistency. Some stringers are afraid clients are going to pluck those strings and think they are at a lower tension than the rest of the stringbed, if they are at the same tension they will still feel looser not the same, if they do feel the same than you really screwed up the string job and have the outside mains at a much higher tension than the rest.

If you are adding tension to make them feel as tight as a main in the middle of the stringbed your stringjob may feel better to some ignorant client who doesn't know better, but you just made the sweetspot of that racquet smaller, plain and simple.

If you would like to practice consistent ignorance making a racquet's sweetspot smaller go ahead and tension your outside mains higher than the rest of the stringbed.

Just because there is a button on a machine or someone else has done it for years does nothing to change the fact that it is ignorant.

Nothing at all is lost if the outside mains are at even or a couple of pounds looser tension, less is more. Going over tension on the outside mains makes the racquet play worse not better.

Hi I'm Ray · Apr 23, 2010

There seems to be too many variables and unproven "facts" there to be citing fallacy, flawed, or ignorance.

Why not just ask the customer if they want a tension increase on the tie off? It's their racket, money, and they are the ones who will be playing with it.

jim e · Apr 23, 2010

Why don't you ask Richard Parnell, who they named that knot after why he increases the tension on tie offs. He too can be quoted in another forum that is why those buttons are on the machines. Tim Strawn who is on the Wilson string team , strings for a # of slam events,and head of the stringers symposium, and runs the g s s site also increases his even more than 10%.So according to you there are some very prominent stringers that are ignorant.
Ray is correct there are too many variables and unproven "facts" there to be citing fallacy, flawed, or ignorance.

Lsmkenpo · Apr 23, 2010

jim e said:
Why don't you ask Richard Parnell, who they named that knot after why he increases the tension on tie offs. He too can be quoted in another forum that is why those buttons are on the machines. Tim Strawn who is on the Wilson string team , strings for a # of slam events,and head of the stringers symposium, and runs the g s s site also increases his even more than 10%.So according to you there are some very prominent stringers that are ignorant.
Ray is correct there are too many variables and unproven "facts" there to be citing fallacy, flawed, or ignorance.

The ignorance is with the clients and perpetuating that ignorance by doing something they know does not add to the stringjob to avoid questions or thoughts that the stringjob is subpar is just silly.

I am a member at the GSS forum I know what some stringers there think and the above reason is not a good reason, sorry.

The USRSA does not recommend it.

String as you wish, if you are happy with a smaller sweetspot to avoid questions from clients, that is OK with me.

Lsmkenpo · Apr 23, 2010

Hi I'm Ray said:
There seems to be too many variables and unproven "facts" there to be citing fallacy, flawed, or ignorance.

Why not just ask the customer if they want a tension increase on the tie off? It's their racket, money, and they are the ones who will be playing with it.

It can be proven by measuring tension
after finishing the mains, trying both ways, perhaps I should make a video
to show it.

What would be great is educating the clients to the differnce, than asking what they want, most don't understand
why those strings would feel looser if they are at the same tension.

sstchur · Apr 23, 2010

Appreciate everyone's responses!

As I said in the beginning, I wasn't trying to start a war, so please let's try to keep it civil.

I was just interested in what others do and their reasoning for it.

As for me personally, I don't up the tension on tie-offs. But my reasoning is not really technical at all.

The reason I don't up the tension on tie-offs, is quite simply because it is not my "habit." The few times I've tried to get in the habit, I would up the tension and then forget to lower it again after starting the crosses. UGH!

I realized that it's just easier for me to be consistent if I don't do it. Less things "changing" while I'm stringing requires less brain capacity for me, which gives me a greater chance of a consistent string job. And that's what it's all about!

JT_2eighty · Apr 23, 2010

I just assumed since the last string pulled (especially mains on a two-piece) is shorter, thus the extra 10% tension if done, would actually result in a string tensioned even more than 10% as compared to the longer strings in the middle, so I do not up by 10%.

Although both of you have valid points, so I think the key is as you say, keep it consistent for your customers so you are not experimenting on their dime.

Experiment on your dime and compare results, trial and error goes a long way, yes sstchur, I once did the same thing and upped tension on last main, only to not bring it back down for the crosses, so I had a 52/57 stringjob... but it played nice with the stiffer crosses, go figure!

000KFACTOR90000 · Apr 23, 2010

jim e said:
Why don't you ask Richard Parnell, who they named that knot after why he increases the tension on tie offs. He too can be quoted in another forum that is why those buttons are on the machines. Tim Strawn who is on the Wilson string team , strings for a # of slam events,and head of the stringers symposium, and runs the g s s site also increases his even more than 10%.So according to you there are some very prominent stringers that are ignorant.
Ray is correct there are too many variables and unproven "facts" there to be citing fallacy, flawed, or ignorance.

20% I believe

jim e · Apr 23, 2010

Lsmkenpo said:
The USRSA does not recommend it.

String as you wish, if you are happy with a smaller sweetspot to avoid questions from clients, that is OK with me.

Although the USRSA does not recommend it, they also stated to me in an email that it does no harm, so it seems at this present time, that they are staying neutral on it. It is a very controversal subject, leave it at that.

David123 · Apr 23, 2010

some very nice information here. I think i will choose to up the tension a little bit maybe 5%

The argument for not upping tension on tie-offs

Hall of Fame

Talk Tennis Guru

Banned

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Talk Tennis Guru

Hall of Fame

Talk Tennis Guru

Hall of Fame

Talk Tennis Guru

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Talk Tennis Guru

Hall of Fame

Talk Tennis Guru

Hall of Fame

Legend

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Legend

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Legend

Hall of Fame

Legend

Hall of Fame

Professional

Legend

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Professional

Legend

Hall of Fame

Similar threads