Who is the most important male player ever.

Mustard · Apr 10, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
Yes, but Kramer pointed out that Tilden was lucky, he dominated a very weak field in a post-war period (come to think of it, so did Kramer himself!), and don't forget, Tilden won his first significant tournament (his FIRST, no less) at the age of 28! Many players start winding down at that age. Tilden must win the prize for the slowest developing player of all time, by a country mile! He was dominant at 34, which shows what a lack of competition he had.

Tilden had Bill Johnston and the French Musketeers for competition. But for Tilden, Johnston himself would have had the same kind of dominance that Tilden had (or not too far from it), and the Musketeers won multiple majors between them.

Dan Lobb said:
Gonzales' weak point was contracts and finances. Kramer, Laver Hoad and Rosewall all did better than him, and Kramer defeated Gonzales in attempted lawsuit.
In the period 1957 to 1960, Hoad earned over $100,000 per year, which was much more than Gonzales' earnings, although Gonzales probably contributed as much as Hoad to the ticket sales.
Hoad was the first pro tennis player to earn over $100,000 a year from play on a regular basis. It took Laver and a decade of inflation to match this record (1959 dollars were worth about 20 times today's dollars).

Gonzales was stuck in that 7 year contract he had signed with Kramer. Kramer would always sign challengers to Gonzales like Trabert, Rosewall and Hoad on much bigger money, which only increased Gonzales' bitterness at being underpaid. It's rather ironic that Gonzales was blamed at the 1963 US Pro for negotiating an appearance fee while nobody else got paid because of promoter incompetence.

Dan Lobb · Apr 10, 2012

Mustard said:
Tilden had Bill Johnston and the French Musketeers for competition. But for Tilden, Johnston himself would have had the same kind of dominance that Tilden had (or not too far from it), and the Musketeers won multiple majors between them.

Gonzales was stuck in that 7 year contract he had signed with Kramer. Kramer would always sign challengers to Gonzales like Trabert, Rosewall and Hoad on much bigger money, which only increased Gonzales' bitterness at being underpaid. It's rather ironic that Gonzales was blamed at the 1963 US Pro for negotiating an appearance fee while nobody else got paid because of promoter incompetence.

Billy Johnston's biggest problem was his size ("Little Bill"). He tended to lose to larger, stronger opponents (like Dick Richards in the 1916 US final, or any number of matches to Tilden ("Big Bill"). The fact that Johnston was a clear number two for a number of years shows how little depth there was in 1920's tennis. Johnston died very young and his play was running downhill from physical weakess, and the same was true of Lacoste, the best of the Frenchmen (although Lacoste lived much longer).
Kramer refused to rate either Tilden, Johnston, Lacoste, or Cochet because he believed that they dominated such a weak era.
Tilden's slow development as a player (28 before winning an important title) is weird beyond belief. Tilden's whole career seems somehow disconnected from the general stream of tennis.

Dan Lobb · Apr 10, 2012

Mustard said:
Tilden had Bill Johnston and the French Musketeers for competition. But for Tilden, Johnston himself would have had the same kind of dominance that Tilden had (or not too far from it), and the Musketeers won multiple majors between them.

Gonzales was stuck in that 7 year contract he had signed with Kramer. Kramer would always sign challengers to Gonzales like Trabert, Rosewall and Hoad on much bigger money, which only increased Gonzales' bitterness at being underpaid. It's rather ironic that Gonzales was blamed at the 1963 US Pro for negotiating an appearance fee while nobody else got paid because of promoter incompetence.

In the old pro format of marathon, head to head tours, the greatest draw for the ticket buyers was always the new pro, to see if he could beat the champ. This was true long before Gonzales' time (Budge was offered $100,000 to turn pro and play Vines, and Vines got second money). They often said that pro tennis thrived on fresh blood, and devoured its young.
Once the rookie had finished his first tour, he was no longer news, and it was necessary to find another super amateur to make the turnstiles click.
This pattern was broken in the late 1950's when the Hoad/Gonzales show played three times (Kramer wanted four), although Hoad refused to play the tour in 1960, only in tournaments, and withdrew from the 1961 tour with a fractured foot.
Laver and Rosewall played each other year after year, which was box office poison, because Emerson and Santana refused to turn pro (Emerson claimed that he could make better money as an amateur (shamateur).) The coming of Open tennis saved Laver and Rosewall from total oblivion.
Gonzales refused to understand how the system worked.

Mustard · Apr 11, 2012

Gonzales was very unfortunate that the open era didn't start in 1960, as it could have done. That would probably have been early enough for Gonzales to win many more of the classic majors. 1968 was too late, as he was 40 years old by then. Rosewall, and especially Laver, were still young enough.

Limpinhitter · Apr 11, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
Yes, but Kramer pointed out that Tilden was lucky, he dominated a very weak field in a post-war period (come to think of it, so did Kramer himself!), and don't forget, Tilden won his first significant tournament (his FIRST, no less) at the age of 28! Many players start winding down at that age. Tilden must win the prize for the slowest developing player of all time, by a country mile! He was dominant at 34, which shows what a lack of competition he had.

Off the top of my head: Johnston, Lacoste, Cochet, Borotra, Brugnon, Patterson, Richards, Nüsslein. All ITHOF inductees.

Limpinhitter · Apr 11, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
Billy Johnston's biggest problem was his size ("Little Bill"). He tended to lose to larger, stronger opponents (like Dick Richards in the 1916 US final, or any number of matches to Tilden ("Big Bill"). The fact that Johnston was a clear number two for a number of years shows how little depth there was in 1920's tennis. Johnston died very young and his play was running downhill from physical weakess, and the same was true of Lacoste, the best of the Frenchmen (although Lacoste lived much longer).
Kramer refused to rate either Tilden, Johnston, Lacoste, or Cochet because he believed that they dominated such a weak era.
Tilden's slow development as a player (28 before winning an important title) is weird beyond belief. Tilden's whole career seems somehow disconnected from the general stream of tennis.

Complete nonesense! "Little Bill" and "Big Bill" were nicknames given by the media to make it easier for the reading public to distinguish them, both being American heros in "The Golden Age of Sports." Little Bill was about 5'9" and Big Bill was about 6'1". Neither is particularly relevant. Little Bill was the #1 player in the World for several years before Tilden overtook him.

Here's a picture of Little Bill standing next to (to the right of) Big Bill, for your edification:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:V...n_and_Bill_Johnston_at_the_1922_Davis_Cup.jpg

urban · Apr 11, 2012

I doubt, that Gonzalez would have won many majors in the 60s. In fact, he won only one pro major, the 1961 US pro, which had a weak field. In the 50s, he could well have dominated the US open at Forest Hills. In Australia and at Wimbledon, the Aussies, especially Sedgman and Hoad, would have given him a run for the money. On clay, Trabert and Rosewall did much better at the RG French pro (and the amateur as well).
Sometimes Kramer should have been more careful with his assesments. He himself profitated from the weak era in the after war years, when Europe laid in ruins (although sadly enough, he lost 3-4 of his prime years due to the war). His competition both at the amateur and the pro game was not that stiff: Joe Hunt was dead, Schroeder played seldom, Tom Brown was not highest class, at the pros Riggs and Budge were aging pre war stars, Gonzalez a greenhorn, Sedgman inexperienced at the pro indoor game.

8F93W5 · Apr 11, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
He also was famous for all-night beer bashes before matches, and smoking with a twin-exhaust holder.
He paid the penalty with an early death and shortened career.

What's that. Something that lets you smoke two cigarettes at once? I googled it and didn't find anything. Sounds like something a pot smoker would want to do, but they have more effective ways to maximize smoke.

Mustard · Apr 11, 2012

urban said:
I doubt, that Gonzalez would have won many majors in the 60s. In fact, he won only one pro major, the 1961 US pro, which had a weak field.

Gonzales only won 1 pro major in the 1960s, yes, but he was in semi retirement quite a lot in the 1960s. I doubt that would have been the case had open tennis arrived in 1960, as that would have given Gonzales fresh challenges, and he was still only 32 at that point.

urban said:
In the 50s, he could well have dominated the US open at Forest Hills. In Australia and at Wimbledon, the Aussies, especially Sedgman and Hoad, would have given him a run for the money. On clay, Trabert and Rosewall did much better at the RG French pro (and the amateur as well).

Gonzales only once played the French Championships as an amateur, reaching the semi finals in 1949. But yes, Gonzales failed to win the French Pro.

Mustard · Apr 11, 2012

Limpinhitter said:
Here's a picture of Little Bill standing next to (to the right of) Big Bill, for your edification:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:V...n_and_Bill_Johnston_at_the_1922_Davis_Cup.jpg

I thought Johnston was the guy standing to Tilden's left on the right hand side of the picture?

http://www.hickoksports.com/biograph/johnstonbill.shtml

Limpinhitter · Apr 11, 2012

Mustard said:
I thought Johnston was the guy standing to Tilden's left on the right hand side of the picture?

http://www.hickoksports.com/biograph/johnstonbill.shtml

That's correct. I said to "the right," not to "Tilden's right." That is Vinnie Richards to Tilden's right.

robow7 · Apr 11, 2012

Ah yes, Vinnie Richards, Keith's younger brother.

Limpinhitter · Apr 11, 2012

robow7 said:
Ah yes, Vinnie Richards, Keith's younger brother.

Maybe Keith Richards' grandfather.

Dan Lobb · Apr 11, 2012

8F93W5 said:
What's that. Something that lets you smoke two cigarettes at once? I googled it and didn't find anything. Sounds like something a pot smoker would want to do, but they have more effective ways to maximize smoke.

Right, two at a time.

Doug_Hartley_2012 · Apr 12, 2012

Most important player? Well, it would have to be someone who promoted the game strenuously either by their conduct and excellence on court or by their lobbying or organisational skills. Jack Kramer must be on the short, short list as a player and promoter. Harry Hopman as a coach and mentor. Players from the 1930s thru the 1980s owed him a lot in their development. Rod Laver and Ken Rosewall for their oncourt excellence and sportsmanship, epic rivalry and impact on US television audiences in 1972. They 'broke' tennis into the mainstream and the bigtime. The others have been great champions but really, what did they change? Among the women, well definitely BJK but that is about it. Chris Evert maybe.

Limpinhitter · Apr 12, 2012

Doug_Hartley_2012 said:
Most important player? Well, it would have to be someone who promoted the game strenuously either by their conduct and excellence on court or by their lobbying or organisational skills. Jack Kramer must be on the short, short list as a player and promoter. Harry Hopman as a coach and mentor. Players from the 1930s thru the 1980s owed him a lot in their development. Rod Laver and Ken Rosewall for their oncourt excellence and sportsmanship, epic rivalry and impact on US television audiences in 1972. They 'broke' tennis into the mainstream and the bigtime. The others have been great champions but really, what did they change? Among the women, well definitely BJK but that is about it. Chris Evert maybe.

Before reading your post, I'm going to hazard a guess - Rosewall! Let's see if I'm right.

Partially right! BTW, the topic is most important "male" player. As a player, I can't see anyone more important to the game than Tilden. He created public interest in the sport at a time when sports was in its renaissance. As anything other than a player, Jack Kramer created the pro tour and the ATP which has a monopoly on the men's pro tour. Which two players were more important to the sport than them?

robow7 · Apr 12, 2012

Question for you better historians, when Tilden's personal problems came out, was that damaging to tennis and set it back a ways in the public eye or was it too long after his initial impact?

Oh and Limpinhitter, have you seen Keith lately, definitely an older brother.

wendersfan · Apr 12, 2012

Gonna go with Jack Kramer.

pmerk34 · Apr 12, 2012

JAY1 said:
Who's been the most important male player in regard to bringing tennis to the masses and for a time transcending tennis itself!

I would say Jimmy Connors

Limpinhitter · Apr 12, 2012

robow7 said:
Question for you better historians, when Tilden's personal problems came out, was that damaging to tennis and set it back a ways in the public eye or was it too long after his initial impact?

Oh and Limpinhitter, have you seen Keith lately, definitely an older brother.

I doubt Tilden's problems were made public anywhere near the time they occurred. The public might have rebelled against the press before condemning Tilden. As for Vinnie, he would be about 50 years older than Keith, if he were still alive, despite appearances.

pmerk34 · Apr 12, 2012

Limpinhitter said:
I doubt Tilden's problems were made public anywhere near the time they occurred. The public might have rebelled against the press before condemning Tilden. As for Vinnie, he would be about 50 years older than Keith, if he were still alive, despite appearances.

Tilden was arrested a few times. The public did know and as Bud Collins and others have noted it did hurt the sport. I don't thINK the pictures of male players in the 1920's and 30's prancing with long white pants and sweater vests on gass courts did much to help either.

Mustard · Apr 12, 2012

pmerk34 said:
I would say Jimmy Connors

Agreed, as far as the players go. And Connors was around at the right time to do that, when the sport was starting to boom on TV. Borg and McEnroe later joined him.

Jack Kramer was responsible for a lot of progressive advances in bringing professional tennis to the masses. The professional players today and past eras owe a lot of the professionals of the pre-open era days when professionals were treated as pariahs by the tennis establishment.

sandy mayer · Apr 12, 2012

I have no doubt it was Jimmy Connors. Tennis first became a huge spectator sport on TV in the 70s and he was the number one reason. If you read Joel Drucker's book you'll hear that of the top twenty most televised matches in the 70s, Connors featured in virtually all of them.

Limpinhitter · Apr 12, 2012

pmerk34 said:
Tilden was arrested a few times. The public did know and as Bud Collins and others have noted it did hurt the sport. I don't thINK the pictures of male players in the 1920's and 30's prancing with long white pants and sweater vests on gass courts did much to help either.

I don't think so. The media in the early 20th Century was much more cautious and prudish than it is now. Typically, folk heros like Tilden were protected by the media and bad acts were covered up. If Tilden's conduct had been widely known during his career he would certainly have been a pariah thereafter.

As for long pants and sweater vests, you're way off base on that one. They also played in neckties. These were all traditions that tennis inherited from its upper class, country club gentleman, roots. There was nothing lacking in masculinity about that, unless there's something effeminate about being an aristocrat.

pmerk34 · Apr 12, 2012

Limpinhitter said:
I don't think so. The media in the early 20th Century was much more cautious and prudish than it is now. Typically, folk heros like Tilden were protected by the media and bad acts were covered up. If Tilden's conduct had been widely known during his career he would certainly have been a pariah thereafter.

As for long pants and sweater vests, you're way off base on that one. They also played in neckties. These were all traditions that tennis inherited from its upper class, country club gentleman, roots. There was nothing lacking in masculinity about that, unless there's something effeminate about being an aristocrat.

Tilden became a Pariah after his career and the arrests came to light. He was broke at the end playing matches to feed himself. Absolutely hurt the sport. When I picked up tennis in 7th grade, I sued to get comments about it as the reputation causes by the players outfits and Tilden's behavior was still there some 40-50 years later. I didn't know why at the time of course.

Dan Lobb · Apr 12, 2012

Limpinhitter said:
Complete nonesense! "Little Bill" and "Big Bill" were nicknames given by the media to make it easier for the reading public to distinguish them, both being American heros in "The Golden Age of Sports." Little Bill was about 5'9" and Big Bill was about 6'1". Neither is particularly relevant. Little Bill was the #1 player in the World for several years before Tilden overtook him.

Here's a picture of Little Bill standing next to (to the right of) Big Bill, for your edification:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:V...n_and_Bill_Johnston_at_the_1922_Davis_Cup.jpg

Bill Johnston is listed as "the smallest male champion in American history at 120 pounds" at the Hall of Fame website. What's that you were saying?
Further, he made a pathetic exit from the game by losing to Lacoste and Cochet, two pint-sized Frenchmen, in the 1927 Davis Cup, simply running out of gas early in the matches.

Mustard · Apr 12, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
Bill Johnston is listed as "the smallest male champion in American history at 120 pounds" at the Hall of Fame website. What's that you were saying?
Further, he made a pathetic exit from the game by losing to Lacoste and Cochet, two pint-sized Frenchmen, in the 1927 Davis Cup, simply running out of gas early in the matches.

120 pounds? That's got to be a mistake. That's less than 9 stone, for goodness sakes.

And your disrespect towards the top 2 Musketeers is ridiculous.

Dan Lobb · Apr 12, 2012

Limpinhitter said:
That's correct. I said to "the right," not to "Tilden's right." That is Vinnie Richards to Tilden's right.

Again, why is Tilden regarded as a great champion when he could not win a significant tournament before the age of 28, and the field which he dominated consisted of unhealthy competitors, some of whom were gassed in WWI?

Dan Lobb · Apr 12, 2012

Mustard said:
120 pounds? That's got to be a mistake. That's less than 9 stone, for goodness sakes.

And your disrespect towards the top 2 Musketeers is ridiculous.

No mistake, look it up. And the guy was also physically feeble.
The Musketeers were all survivors of the WWI trenches, and were gassed during the war. Both Lacoste and Cochet suffered from ill health, and Lacoste retired very early.

Mustard · Apr 12, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
Again, why is Tilden regarded as a great champion when he could not win a significant tournament before the age of 28, and the field which he dominated consisted of unhealthy competitors, some of whom were gassed in WWI?

Tilden played the US Championships for the first time in 1916, when he was 23. He was 27 when he won the title in 1920, having been runner-up to Lindley Murray and Bill Johnston the previous 2 years. And it's hardly Tilden's fault that Anthony Wilding was killed in the first world war.

Mustard · Apr 12, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
No mistake, look it up. And the guy was also physically feeble.
The Musketeers were all survivors of the WWI trenches, and were gassed during the war. Both Lacoste and Cochet suffered from ill health, and Lacoste retired very early.

Yet Lacoste managed to win 7 majors and was 92 years of age when he died in 1996. Lacoste was also regularly seen at the French Open right up until his death. How feeble.

Cochet did even better in his career, winning 10 amateur majors and 1 pro major. Cochet was 85 when he passed away in 1987.

Dan Lobb · Apr 12, 2012

Mustard said:
Tilden played the US Championships for the first time in 1916, when he was 23. He was 27 when he won the title in 1920, having been runner-up to Lindley Murray and Bill Johnston the previous 2 years. And it's hardly Tilden's fault that Anthony Wilding was killed in the first world war.

Anthony Wilding would have been well past his peak after WWI.
Perhaps Tilden was only 27 (not 28) when he won his first tournament, but this is hardly rehabilitation for his record. The fact is that there was no new generation of players coming up in the early 1920's to challenge him, they were lying dead on the battlefields of Europe. His competitors were old guys like Johnston and Williams, who had peaked before U.S. entered the war.
By the way, both Williams and Johnston suffered major interruptions in their careers because they served their country in the war (the Musketeers were all veterans of the trenches, where they were gassed).
How did Tilden manage to avoid any interruption to his career during the war years? Did he suffer a hangnail?
Even old Norman Brookes served courageously at the front lines of the war.

Dan Lobb · Apr 12, 2012

Mustard said:
Yet Lacoste managed to win 7 majors and was 92 years of age when he died in 1996. Lacoste was also regularly seen at the French Open right up until his death. How feeble.

Cochet did even better in his career, winning 10 amateur majors and 1 pro major. Cochet was 85 when he passed away in 1987.

They lived to a ripe old age, but they experienced physical weariness early in their careers, Lacoste retiring at a very young age.
But then, what would you expect of men who had been gassed in the trenches of WWI?

Limpinhitter · Apr 12, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
Bill Johnston is listed as "the smallest male champion in American history at 120 pounds" at the Hall of Fame website. What's that you were saying?
Further, he made a pathetic exit from the game by losing to Lacoste and Cochet, two pint-sized Frenchmen, in the 1927 Davis Cup, simply running out of gas early in the matches.

Does Bill Johnston look like he's 120 lbs in the picture I linked for you? If he is, then Bill Tilden was about 130 lbs, and Vinnie Richards was about 105 lbs.

Limpinhitter · Apr 12, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
Anthony Wilding would have been well past his peak after WWI.
Perhaps Tilden was only 27 (not 28) when he won his first tournament, but this is hardly rehabilitation for his record. The fact is that there was no new generation of players coming up in the early 1920's to challenge him, they were lying dead on the battlefields of Europe. His competitors were old guys like Johnston and Williams, who had peaked before U.S. entered the war.
By the way, both Williams and Johnston suffered major interruptions in their careers because they served their country in the war (the Musketeers were all veterans of the trenches, where they were gassed).
How did Tilden manage to avoid any interruption to his career during the war years? Did he suffer a hangnail?
Even old Norman Brookes served courageously at the front lines of the war.

Who gives a rat's ass who served on what front lines! This is a tennis forum. Maybe you should post your stupidity at the American Legion website. You'll be better recieved there.

kiki · Apr 12, 2012

There are players that left mark even if for minor details.While John Mc Enroe and John Newcombe may not be legitim GOAT contenders, their singles&doubles record makes them very specific tennis specimens...

Dan Lobb · Apr 12, 2012

Limpinhitter said:
Does Bill Johnston look like he's 120 lbs in the picture I linked for you? If he is, then Bill Tilden was about 130 lbs, and Vinnie Richards was about 105 lbs.

You can't always tell from a picture.
Bill Johnston in this picture doesn't look like Tarzan to me, and, yes, he looks worn out.
Check the Hall of Fame site if you want the facts, that he was the smallest of all American champions at 120 pounds. He was overmatched, and a loser to Williams in 1916.

Dan Lobb · Apr 12, 2012

Limpinhitter said:
Who gives a rat's ass who served on what front lines! This is a tennis forum. Maybe you should post your stupidity at the American Legion website. You'll be better recieved there.

You seem to have missed the point. That Tilden was playing away his days on the tennis court while his competitors (Williams, Johnston, Brookes, Wilding, Borotra, Cochet, Lacoste) were placing their bodies and health on the line in a brutal struggle. Their sacrifice undermined their physical strength postwar, and made it easier for Tilden to build his tennis record. And, of course, the young players of the early twenties never made it to the tennis scene at all, but remained in Europe on the battlefields and graveyards.

Limpinhitter · Apr 12, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
You can't always tell from a picture.
Bill Johnston in this picture doesn't look like Tarzan to me, and, yes, he looks worn out.
Check the Hall of Fame site if you want the facts, that he was the smallest of all American champions at 120 pounds. He was overmatched, and a loser to Williams in 1916.

There's no way that he was 120 lbs in his prime. He died from tuberculosis, a slow progressing, lingering infection, before antibiotics became available. Perhaps he was 120 lbs. the year before he finally died. Other than that, I call BS!

Limpinhitter · Apr 12, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
You seem to have missed the point. That Tilden was playing away his days on the tennis court while his competitors (Williams, Johnston, Brookes, Wilding, Borotra, Cochet, Lacoste) were placing their bodies and health on the line in a brutal struggle. Their sacrifice undermined their physical strength postwar, and made it easier for Tilden to build his tennis record. And, of course, the young players of the early twenties never made it to the tennis scene at all, but remained in Europe on the battlefields and graveyards.

What a hot steamy pile of horse puckey! Tilden was the best player in the World for a decade beginning 3 years after WWI.

Dan Lobb · Apr 12, 2012

Limpinhitter said:
What a hot steamy pile of horse puckey! Tilden was the best player in the World for a decade beginning 3 years after WWI.

Yes, but what does that say about the world of tennis when it could be dominated by a guy in his mid to late thirties, who won his first tournament at the age of 27 or 28, in a field decimated by greater manpower losses for tennis-playing nations than in the second world war?

Limpinhitter · Apr 12, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
Yes, but what does that say about the world of tennis when it could be dominated by a guy in his mid to late thirties, who won his first tournament at the age of 27 or 28, in a field decimated by greater manpower losses for tennis-playing nations than in the second world war?

Given Tilden's ability to continue to compete with the best in the World through his late 40's, it tells me that he had the talent of a Sampras or a Federer, and he had longevity that exceeded even Gonzales and Rosewall.

PS: Here's a short clip showing Tilden at 41 beating Ellsworth Vines at 23. I suppose Vines wasn't very good either. http://www.britishpathe.com/video/battle-of-tennis-stars/query/tilden+vines

Dan Lobb · Apr 12, 2012

Limpinhitter said:
Given Tilden's ability to continue to compete with the best in the World through his late 40's, it tells me that he had the talent of a Sampras or a Federer, and he had longevity that exceeded even Gonzales and Rosewall.

PS: Here's a short clip showing Tilden at 41 beating Ellsworth Vines at 23. I suppose Vines wasn't very good either. http://www.britishpathe.com/video/battle-of-tennis-stars/query/tilden+vines

Vines always started slowly on these tours, and soon turned the tables against Tilden. Tilden could win occasional matches against Vines or Budge on the pro tour, but he was already past his peak in 1927, when he lost a series of major finals to the French guys.
Don't forget, Vines lost a major Davis Cup match in the final of 1932, to old man Borotra, on a fast surface. Vines was always inconsistent.

Limpinhitter · Apr 12, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
Vines always started slowly on these tours, and soon turned the tables against Tilden. Tilden could win occasional matches against Vines or Budge on the pro tour, but he was already past his peak in 1927, when he lost a series of major finals to the French guys.
Don't forget, Vines lost a major Davis Cup match in the final of 1932, to old man Borotra, on a fast surface. Vines was always inconsistent.

Let's try again. This was Tilden's first match against Vines. It was 1934. Vines just turned pro. He was 23 years old and was the 1931 and 1932 U.S. Nationals and 1931 Wimbledon champion. Tilden, who was FORTY ONE at the time, won the match.

You've got nothing!

Dan Lobb · Apr 12, 2012

Limpinhitter said:
Let's try again. This was Tilden's first match against Vines. It was 1934. Vines just turned pro. He was 23 years old and was the 1931 and 1932 U.S. Nationals and 1931 Wimbledon champion. Tilden, who was FORTY ONE at the time, won the match.

You've got nothing!

My dear friend, Vines lost his opening tour matches at MSG to everyone (Tilden, Perry, Budge). Why?
What good would it do to kill public interest in the tour before it really got going? Vines may not have consciously thought this, but he always started slowly at MSG.

Limpinhitter · Apr 12, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
My dear friend, Vines lost his opening tour matches at MSG to everyone (Tilden, Perry, Budge). Why?
What good would it do to kill public interest in the tour before it really got going? Vines may not have consciously thought this, but he always started slowly at MSG.

My dear friend, Ellsworth Vines was an all time great! An ITHOF inductee!
AND TILDEN BEAT HIM AT THE AGE OF FORTY ONE YEARS OLD!!!
BTW, Budge and Perry are also all time greats and ITHOF inductees.

Dan Lobb · Apr 12, 2012

Limpinhitter said:
My dear friend, Ellsworth Vines was an all time great! An ITHOF inductee! TILDEN BEAT HIM AT THE AGE OF FORTY ONE YEARS OLD!!!

He also beat Budge several times in 1939.
What does this prove? It was pro tennis, giving a good show to all the folks.

Limpinhitter · Apr 12, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
He also beat Budge several times in 1939.
What does this prove? It was pro tennis, giving a good show to all the folks.

It proves what I proffered earlier, that Tilden was a rare talent with amazing longevity. Unless you have an admission by Budge that he carried Tilden, that's all it proves.

Dan Lobb · Apr 12, 2012

Limpinhitter said:
It proves what I proffered earlier, that Tilden was a rare talent with amazing longevity. Unless you have an admission by Budge that he carried Tilden, that's all it proves.

Kramer once asked Vines if he had carried Perry, a notably less gifted player than Vines, in their 1937 tour (which ended in an overall tie). Vines refused to answer the question. I would not have asked this question to Budge, out of respect.
Budge, like another Irishman, Hoad, enjoyed downing a few too many, and perhaps this accounted for some inconsistency in his play.

krosero · Apr 12, 2012

Dan Lobb said:
Don't forget, Vines lost a major Davis Cup match in the final of 1932, to old man Borotra, on a fast surface.

That was on clay, at Roland Garros.

Who is the most important male player ever.

Who is the most important male player ever.

Lew Hoad

Ken Rosewall

Rod Laver

Arthur Ashe

Jimmy Connors

Bjorn Borg

John Mcenroe

Andre Agassi

Pete Sampras

Roger Federer

Bionic Poster

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

Bionic Poster

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

Legend

Rookie

Bionic Poster

Bionic Poster

G.O.A.T.

Professional

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

Rookie

G.O.A.T.

Professional

New User

Legend

G.O.A.T.

Legend

Bionic Poster

Semi-Pro

G.O.A.T.

Legend

G.O.A.T.

Bionic Poster

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

Bionic Poster

Bionic Poster

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

Banned

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

Legend

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