Let's disspel the myth that Federer thrived against a "weak field"

above bored

Semi-Pro
Before I get into this, I want to address one thing from the first post:

That is irrelevant. We are not comparing the eras relative to each other, as in 'the players from such-and-such era would beat the players from an earlier era', we are comparing players within each era, as in 'so-and-so would beat his contemporaries'. Doing the former would be impossible, because tennis is always changing. Techniques in training, new equipment, changes in playing surfaces, the additional money leading to more players being trained for the sport, etc. make it totally impossible, and criminally unfair, to compare the eras to each other. It is also irrelevant because Federer and his contemporaries were trained in the same era and had the same advantages and disadvantages. It's therefore not more impressive that Federer beat his contemporaries because they were somehow better than earlier tennis players, since Federer also benefitted from those improvements in the training process.

Anyway, here's how I see it.

Tennis Channel's top 100 players features 3 of Federer's contemporaries (within approximately 3 years of Federer's age either way). They are Hewitt at #61, Safin at #80, and Roddick at #94. Federer is obviously at the top of the list.

Lendl was the #1 player through the latter half of the 1980s and Sampras was the dominant player in the 90s.

Lendl's contemporaries: McEnroe at #13, Yannick Noah at #85. Looking at Lendl, he started dominating at a relatively late age, 25, and a new generation came along, including Pat Cash, Mats Wilander, Boris Becker, Stefan Edberg et al. All of whom appear on the top 100, and all of whom won majors while Lendl was the #1 player. With the advent of the younger players combined with McEnroe, Lendl faced very tough competition.

Sampras's contemporaries: Agassi at #12, Courier at #42, Rafter at #70, Kafelnikov at #82, Muster at #95, and Chang at #100. Not to mention players who won majors while Sampras was at his best, including Sergi Bruguera with 2 RG titles, and Richard Krajicek with one Wimbledon. Sampras also crossed over, as a youth, with the end of the Lendl era and had to face some of the players listed above while they were in their primes. He crossed over, as an aging vet, to Kuerten and Carlos Moya, who were 5 years younger, and Hewitt.

Federer's contemporaries include Fererro, Malisse, Coria, Gonzalez, Davydenko, Nalbandian, et al. Underwhelming. Federer crossed over to Agassi as a youngster, and obviously to much better players in Djokovic, Nadal, Murray, Tsonga et al, as an aging vet.

Federer's most dominant years were 2004-07. His ages were between 22-26. I have spent time researching what an athlete's physical, athletic prime years are. The prime occurs between ages 16-26. Prior to 16, the body is too frail, after 26, there is a loss of youthful quickness and endurance that leads to less explosion and power and more stretches of middling play. This is true in any sport. The mental side of the game is something different. Every player is somewhat different. Lendl was a late bloomer. Borg was an early bloomer. Lendl maintained the mental dominance well past the point where his body was cooperating. Borg lost the mental edge long before his body broke down. Sampras lost the mental edge many years before Agassi. Injuries can play into this, as with Hewitt and many others.

All of this in mind, it appears Federer's best years were played in the absence of any great competition, and that somewhat accounts for his winning of 3 majors per year in those years. He did not have a contemporary rival that was near him in greatness, unlike Lendl/McEnroe and Sampras/Agassi. His career arc resembles Connors, who was not as dominant in his prime, but had the longevity. Connors, however, had a contemporary who is an all-time great, in Vilas. Federer lost a slam to a contemporary only once between 2004-07 (prime years), the 2005 Australian Open Semi, to Safin. Connors and Federer both have great rivals who are of a younger generation (McEnroe/Borg - Djokovic/Nadal). Both men stayed mentally and physically competitive past their athletic primes. Both resisted serious injuries (which probably accounts for the longevity).

There is one other thing to consider. Federer plays an attacking style of tennis that works much better on surfaces past generations got to play on. In his era, Federer has had to play on slow hard courts and a slowed-down Wimbledon. So, compared to many of the former players discussed, Federer can be considered somewhat hobbled during his career. But, this issue also would afflict Federer's contemporaries, many of whom were attacking players too.

All of this presupposes some sort of objective truth in TC's list, which is obviously not the case. But other than win/loss records, there is no way of measuring an era.

The plain fact of the matter is this: with the exception of the 2005 Australian Open, Federer's contemporaries failed to make any dent in his career accomplishments. That means those players were not in the same league as Federer. And that is not true of Connors (Vilas), McEnroe (Borg/Lendl), Lendl (McEnroe), Sampras (Agassi et al.) or Nadal (Djokovic). That is beyond dispute. So unless the era vs. era issue is what's being argued, which I already explained is impossible, I don't see the argument. Federer faced inferior rivals. That's the end of it.

But is Federer still the GOAT? I don't care. It's a non-issue. I enjoy watching him play and will regret his retirement when it happens.
More nonsense and a lot of it. Such effort, but little in the way of intelligent argument.

So Federer is not such a great player because he did not lose enough. Makes perfect sense, not.

No that's not the end of it at all. The fact of the matter is Federer was better than everyone, that's to his credit. You don't penalise someone for accomplishing too much. For a long period he was in the shadow of the Hewitt's, Safin's, Roddick's and Ferrero's. It's to his credit that he was able to dominate them and prevent them from achieving higher on the all time list. They are where they are because of him, not because they were not great players, worthy of holding more Slams than they do.
 

big_bill

Rookie
1)Safin hurt his knee in 2005, never the same again = GONE

2)Roddick started pushing in 2005= GONE

3) Hewitt has not had 6 months injury free tennis in 7 years (2005) = GONE

4) Guillermo Coria had a mental breakdown after 2005 = GONE

5) Gaston Gaudio (42-8 on clay 2005) had a mental breakdown in 2005 = GONE

6) Gustavo Kuerten retired with an injured hip shortly after beating Federer in the French Open in 2004 = GONE

7) Nalbandian got fat and his nephew was crushed in an elevator shaft = GONE (except for a few months towards the end of 2007)

8 ) Ferrero got the chicken pox and somehow (no one really understands this) couldn't hit his forehand hard anymore when he came back = GONE

9 ) Philipoussis hurt his knee and had to retire = GONE

10) Tommy Haas has been constantly injured for the last ten years, whenever he gets close to reaching Federer's level he gets injured (AO 2006, FO 2009) = GONE

So in 2005, basically, overnight, players like Tommy Robredo were in the top 10.

The SECOND Murray and Djokovic arrived on the scene (real competition) they started beating him, even though they weren't fully developed yet. Murray beat Federer in 2006, and Djokovic beat him in 2007.

No question it was a very weak era, but credit Roger for defeating all the deadbeats that were put in front of him.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Before I get into this, I want to address one thing from the first post:

That is irrelevant. We are not comparing the eras relative to each other, as in 'the players from such-and-such era would beat the players from an earlier era', we are comparing players within each era, as in 'so-and-so would beat his contemporaries'. Doing the former would be impossible, because tennis is always changing. Techniques in training, new equipment, changes in playing surfaces, the additional money leading to more players being trained for the sport, etc. make it totally impossible, and criminally unfair, to compare the eras to each other. It is also irrelevant because Federer and his contemporaries were trained in the same era and had the same advantages and disadvantages. It's therefore not more impressive that Federer beat his contemporaries because they were somehow better than earlier tennis players, since Federer also benefitted from those improvements in the training process.

Anyway, here's how I see it.

Tennis Channel's top 100 players features 3 of Federer's contemporaries (within approximately 3 years of Federer's age either way). They are Hewitt at #61, Safin at #80, and Roddick at #94. Federer is obviously at the top of the list.

Lendl was the #1 player through the latter half of the 1980s and Sampras was the dominant player in the 90s.

Lendl's contemporaries: McEnroe at #13, Yannick Noah at #85. Looking at Lendl, he started dominating at a relatively late age, 25, and a new generation came along, including Pat Cash, Mats Wilander, Boris Becker, Stefan Edberg et al. All of whom appear on the top 100, and all of whom won majors while Lendl was the #1 player. With the advent of the younger players combined with McEnroe, Lendl faced very tough competition.

Sampras's contemporaries: Agassi at #12, Courier at #42, Rafter at #70, Kafelnikov at #82, Muster at #95, and Chang at #100. Not to mention players who won majors while Sampras was at his best, including Sergi Bruguera with 2 RG titles, and Richard Krajicek with one Wimbledon. Sampras also crossed over, as a youth, with the end of the Lendl era and had to face some of the players listed above while they were in their primes. He crossed over, as an aging vet, to Kuerten and Carlos Moya, who were 5 years younger, and Hewitt.

Federer's contemporaries include Fererro, Malisse, Coria, Gonzalez, Davydenko, Nalbandian, et al. Underwhelming. Federer crossed over to Agassi as a youngster, and obviously to much better players in Djokovic, Nadal, Murray, Tsonga et al, as an aging vet.

Federer's most dominant years were 2004-07. His ages were between 22-26. I have spent time researching what an athlete's physical, athletic prime years are. The prime occurs between ages 16-26. Prior to 16, the body is too frail, after 26, there is a loss of youthful quickness and endurance that leads to less explosion and power and more stretches of middling play. This is true in any sport. The mental side of the game is something different. Every player is somewhat different. Lendl was a late bloomer. Borg was an early bloomer. Lendl maintained the mental dominance well past the point where his body was cooperating. Borg lost the mental edge long before his body broke down. Sampras lost the mental edge many years before Agassi. Injuries can play into this, as with Hewitt and many others.

All of this in mind, it appears Federer's best years were played in the absence of any great competition, and that somewhat accounts for his winning of 3 majors per year in those years. He did not have a contemporary rival that was near him in greatness, unlike Lendl/McEnroe and Sampras/Agassi. His career arc resembles Connors, who was not as dominant in his prime, but had the longevity. Connors, however, had a contemporary who is an all-time great, in Vilas. Federer lost a slam to a contemporary only once between 2004-07 (prime years), the 2005 Australian Open Semi, to Safin. Connors and Federer both have great rivals who are of a younger generation (McEnroe/Borg - Djokovic/Nadal). Both men stayed mentally and physically competitive past their athletic primes. Both resisted serious injuries (which probably accounts for the longevity).

There is one other thing to consider. Federer plays an attacking style of tennis that works much better on surfaces past generations got to play on. In his era, Federer has had to play on slow hard courts and a slowed-down Wimbledon. So, compared to many of the former players discussed, Federer can be considered somewhat hobbled during his career. But, this issue also would afflict Federer's contemporaries, many of whom were attacking players too.

All of this presupposes some sort of objective truth in TC's list, which is obviously not the case. But other than win/loss records, there is no way of measuring an era.

The plain fact of the matter is this: with the exception of the 2005 Australian Open, Federer's contemporaries failed to make any dent in his career accomplishments. That means those players were not in the same league as Federer. And that is not true of Connors (Vilas), McEnroe (Borg/Lendl), Lendl (McEnroe), Sampras (Agassi et al.) or Nadal (Djokovic). That is beyond dispute. So unless the era vs. era issue is what's being argued, which I already explained is impossible, I don't see the argument. Federer faced inferior rivals. That's the end of it.

But is Federer still the GOAT? I don't care. It's a non-issue. I enjoy watching him play and will regret his retirement when it happens.


Spot on post! Logical and dispassionate, yet also quite revealing. Probably as close to a slam dunk as is possible in this discussion, given the caveat that we are speaking relatively... as in -- much of Federer's competition consisted of 'relatively' inferior rivals from 2004-07.

I still contend that there is no weak era in a world class and competitive, established sport where tons of money and fame can be had and earned by those who are good enough to take advantage; just weaker eras as compared to others...
 

dh003i

Legend
If Federer had just lost a few finals, his competition would be ranked higher.

That's why this is so silly.

Right.

What is indisputable is that Federer was just in a different league than anyone else during his prime, including Nadal (look at GS wins).

Those who wish to discredit him say it is because he faced inferior competition compared to players of different eras. An alternative hypothesis is that the competition was just as good or perhaps better (evolution of the game), but that Federer was just that good.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
If Federer had just lost a few finals, his competition would be ranked higher.

That's why this is so silly.

This is hilarious, Federer is getting critisized for being super consistent at the top.

I'm sure that a lot of the former greatst would match Federer at his best if they played at their max abilities but because they weren't that consistent it made their competition look tougher. Just take Sampras. How often did he lose IN HIS PRIME in grass/hard court majors in the early rounds? Just because he didn't feel like competing/playing his best that day?1994 US, 1996 AO, 1996 Wimbledon, 1996 US (barely beat Corretja a clay court specialist), 1997 US, 1998 AO, 1998 US - that's just his prime years.

Do you think that Kafelnikov, Rafter, Krajicek would win majors these days? LAWL. That's the major difference between 00's/10's and other eras. We have 2-3 guys who bring their best each time they are forced to do so. And that is why there is such a huge gap between the top 3/4 and the rest.
 

big_bill

Rookie
The SECOND Murray and Djokovic arrived on the scene (real competition) they started beating him, even though they weren't fully developed yet. Murray beat Federer in 2006, and Djokovic beat him in 2007.

And a 17 y.o. Nadal cleaned Fed's clock 6-3, 6-3 in their very first encounter (on a hard court no less) way back in 2004 and went on to win 7 of their first 8 meetings between 2004-2006.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
And a 17 y.o. Nadal cleaned Fed's clock 6-3, 6-3 in their very first encounter (on a hard court no less) way back in 2004 and went on to win 7 of their first 8 meetings between 2004-2006.

First of all it's 6 out of 7 you liar, then it was with a huge help on matches on clay (4 consecutive matches on clay 2005 FO, 2006 MC, Rome, FO)

But then miraculously Nadal after taking out Fed in March 2006 in Dubai failed to beat him on a non-clay surface for another 2,5 years. How's that possible?
Also, Fed won 5 of the next 7 matches after Nadal's serie.
 

TopFH

Hall of Fame
Federer's Titles Finals: 74/30
Adjusted: 54/50

I guess if this had happened then Federer's competition would be tough.
 

big_bill

Rookie
First of all it's 6 out of 7 you liar, then it was with a huge help on matches on clay (4 consecutive matches on clay 2005 FO, 2006 MC, Rome, FO)

But then miraculously Nadal after taking out Fed in March 2006 in Dubai failed to beat him on a non-clay surface for another 2,5 years. How's that possible?
Also, Fed won 5 of the next 7 matches after Nadal's serie.

*groan*

My point was that during Fed's so called "God" years, there simply weren't any players who stepped up to the plate to challenge him. Most of his so called "rivals" lost the match before they even stepped on the court, and therefore Federer was able to dominate over a relatively weak era filled with MENTAL midgets. When viewed OBJECTIVELY, Federer thrived and dominated over a relatively weak era (esp. with regard to MENTAL toughness), pure and simple.
 

TopFH

Hall of Fame
First of all it's 6 out of 7 you liar, then it was with a huge help on matches on clay (4 consecutive matches on clay 2005 FO, 2006 MC, Rome, FO)

But then miraculously Nadal after taking out Fed in March 2006 in Dubai failed to beat him on a non-clay surface for another 2,5 years. How's that possible?
Also, Fed won 5 of the next 7 matches after Nadal's serie.

This. Before 2008, the head-to-head was 8-6 in Nadal's favor. Out of those 14 matches, 7 were contested on clay, 5 on hard, and 2 on grass.

Clay: 6:1 Nadal
Hard: 3:2 Federer
Grass: 2:0 Federer

This makes Nadal's record heavily skewered toward clay, as he won 75% of his match on clay. However on 2008, they played four times, with Nadal winning all of them. At the end of the year, the record was 12-6 in favor of Nadal. Although Nadal won on grass that year, the record was still very skewed towards clay. Even if Federer had won Wimbledon, the record would be 11-7.

So now:

Clay: 9:1 Nadal
Grass: 2:1 Nadal
Hard: 3:2 Federer

It was the fact that they did not play on hard and Federer lost Wimbledon that the record is this way.

Too long to read, Nadal's mental advantage was built on clay, with 10 out of 18 matches being on clay. He won 9, skewing the record.
 

TopFH

Hall of Fame
^The Federer-Nadal rivalry would be actually quite competitive had 2008 not happened.

2004-2007: 8:6 Nadal
2009-today: 6-4 Nadal

H-to-H would be: 14:10 Nadal

Clay: 9-2 Nadal
Grass: 2:0 Federer
Hard: 6:4 Federer

As you can see, clay skew plus the reality of 2008 being an off year, Nadal and Federer would be really tight.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Federer had the gastroenteritis during that match. I remember it very well!

If Federer knew that Nadal was about to become his biggest rival in the future, I'm sure he'd found a way to win and "protect" the h2h. He didn't seem too bothered when he shook hands with Nadal as if to say "well played kid"
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
*groan*

My point was that during Fed's so called "God" years, there simply weren't any players who stepped up to the plate to challenge him. Most of his so called "rivals" lost the match before they even stepped on the court, and therefore Federer was able to dominate over a relatively weak era filled with MENTAL midgets. When viewed OBJECTIVELY, Federer thrived and dominated over a relatively weak era (esp. with regard to MENTAL toughness), pure and simple.

It's not like Federer is losing left and right these days, he's losing to the very same players who challenged him in some of his prime years - Nadal since 2005 and Djokovic since 2007. Where's the current tough field?

I guess the "tough opposition" wasn't strong enough to stop Federer when he was on a roll in 2011-2012 winning like 95 % of matches he played in a 6-month span
 

big_bill

Rookie
It's not like Federer is losing left and right these days, he's losing to the very same players who challenged him in some of his prime years - Nadal since 2005 and Djokovic since 2007. Where's the current tough field?

I guess the "tough opposition" wasn't strong enough to stop Federer when he was on a roll in 2011-2012 winning like 95 % of matches he played in a 6-month span

Fed dominated during a transitional era and beat all the mental midgets that were put in front of him, which is all he could do. He won his Slams fair and square but to suggest that he did it during a challenging, competitive era is simply untrue. The facts speak for themselves.
 

TopFH

Hall of Fame
Fed dominated during a transitional era and beat all the mental midgets that were put in front of him, which is all he could do. He won his Slams fair and square but to suggest that he did it during a challenging, competitive era is simply untrue. The facts speak for themselves.

So if you think an era is weak, it is a fact?

Also, Federer has won all but four of his matches since the USO to this "tough era". The guys that beat are: Nadal, Isner, Roddick and Djokovic. All players from 2007 and before.
 

big_bill

Rookie
So if you think an era is weak, it is a fact?

Also, Federer has won all but four of his matches since the USO to this "tough era". The guys that beat are: Nadal, Isner, Roddick and Djokovic. All players from 2007 and before.

If you grew up idolizing Federer and are emotionally invested in him, there is nothing I can say that will make you change your mind. All I can say is that I've witnessed many generations of tennis players come and go and am giving you my unbiased thoughts. I'm an admirer of Roger and his game but I'm not blinded by the circumstances during his years of total domination.
 
Fed's competition

Players born within 2 years of Pete>
GS slams + finals
agassi
courier
martin
---
krajicek
ferreira
goran
chang
bruguera
rafter

if we go out to 4 years...we get too>

korda
becker
stich
pioline
___
kafelnikov
enqvist
rusedski
henman
corretja

ok..with Fed..within 2 years

safin
ferrero
roddick
hewitt
nalbandian
coria
davydenko
gonzo


OK..good group there..but where things get really interesting is within 4 years

haas
grosjean
lubijic
blake
kiefer
___

ancic
soderling
tsonga
baggy

There is distinct lack of class in the 4 yr contemporary list IMHO.

Kuerten and scud were heavily interupted by injury to challenge fed.

Haas and grosjean...talented for sure..but same class as pete's competition?

The point is...due to injury..a big hole found..in the the 76-79 period..although I agree carlos moya great player is primarily clay first...

put another way..check out how many slams were in 2003 wimby QF's = 0
 

bjsnider

Hall of Fame
OOps sorry..LOL..great reply..yes this has been done adnauseum.

nadal's competition btw ha been very tough and he has ten slams and counting

I forgot to do and age comparison for him

Agreed. Nadal has faced terribly tough competition, not only from his two peers Murray and Djokovic, but from Jo Tsonga, Soddy, Berdych, and the tail end of the Federer prime years.

The one area where Nadal has been lucky is that there aren't any other clay greats at the moment. Guga Kuerten retired just as Nadal made his run at RG. Nadal would have competed in RG 2003,04 except he was injured both times. He'd been beating Moya on clay since he was around 12, so I think it's reasonable to think he would have ended up against Kuerten at both tournaments. That would have been fun.

But in the 1990s there was Muster, Bruguera (who owns a winning record against Pistol Pete), Agassi, Courier, Moya, and Kuerten. That's a logjam at the top if there ever was one.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
*groan*

My point was that during Fed's so called "God" years, there simply weren't any players who stepped up to the plate to challenge him. Most of his so called "rivals" lost the match before they even stepped on the court, and therefore Federer was able to dominate over a relatively weak era filled with MENTAL midgets. When viewed OBJECTIVELY, Federer thrived and dominated over a relatively weak era (esp. with regard to MENTAL toughness), pure and simple.

This post is fact not fiction like you fed lovers are dreaming about.
 

SoBad

G.O.A.T.
Getting ripped by hip-busted Kuerten and grass-green Nadal in slams tells you the story right there.
 

big_bill

Rookie
^So, in your opinion, is the Nadal-Djokovic era weak?

They're both only 25 yo so it's too early to say. The story is still unfolding and we don't have enough information. In 5-7 years we'll be able to look back and examine their careers (and that of their rivals and contemporaries) with a much better perspective and see how things stack up --without all the emotion.
 

TopFH

Hall of Fame
They're both only 25 yo so it's too early to say. The story is still unfolding and we don't have enough information. In 5-7 years we'll be able to look back and examine their careers (and that of their rivals and contemporaries) with a much better perspective and see how things stack up --without all the emotion.

Although I may not agree with you, I grant you that you are one of the most objective and reasonable posters this forum has. Cheers!
 

mandy01

G.O.A.T.
Nadal-Djokovic era is from 2008 onwards...

LOL, not even then. Roger was still #2 by the end of 2008 and got back the #1 ranking in 2009. Roger was also #2 in 2010. More like from 2011 till now with Roger at 30. Yeah, groundbreaking stuff :lol:
 

big_bill

Rookie
Although I may not agree with you, I grant you that you are one of the most objective and reasonable posters this forum has. Cheers!

Thanks and cheers to you as well. Let's hope ALL the contenders raise and sustain their level with the Olympics right around the corner. That way we don't have to debate whether 2012 was a "weak field" or not :).
 

TopFH

Hall of Fame
LOL, not even then. Roger was still #2 by the end of 2008 and got back the #1 ranking in 2009. Roger was also #2 in 2010. More like from 2011 till now with Roger at 30. Yeah, groundbreaking stuff :lol:

LOL, my bad. Yeah, Nadalovic has just started.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Do you think that Kafelnikov, Rafter, Krajicek would win majors these days? LAWL.

Gaudio won a major in the Federer/Nadal era. So did Del Potro, a player who hasnt even been able to win a Masters title. Soderling reached 2 slam finals at the same event in back to back years, a marginal player compared to even those you mentioned. Berdych reached a Wimbledon final. So dont be so sure on your claim.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
LOL, not even then. Roger was still #2 by the end of 2008 and got back the #1 ranking in 2009. Roger was also #2 in 2010. More like from 2011 till now with Roger at 30. Yeah, groundbreaking stuff :lol:

Nadal accomplished way more in the 2008-2010 period than Federer did (26-29 year old Federer, not 30 year old Federer). That period was much more the Nadal era than it ever was the Federer era. Nadal was light years better in 2010, way better in 2008, and only marginally worse (due to injuries alone) in 2009. Also being better than a 17-20 year old Nadal is no stupendous feat, the only Nadal which Federer was ever better than for any substained period.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
It was the fact that they did not play on hard and Federer lost Wimbledon that the record is this way.

Too long to read, Nadal's mental advantage was built on clay, with 10 out of 18 matches being on clay. He won 9, skewing the record.

Actually Federer losing at Wimbledon in recent years has helped his H2H with Nadal. Had they played at Wimbledon 2010 and 2011 as most expected them to, Federer would likely have a 2-3 and losing record vs Nadal on grass now, but was able to preserve his winning record by losing earlier than expected at Wimbledon both years. It will be interesting to see if Federer can avoid playing Nadal on grass ever again to keep this advantage preserved.

As for hard courts, Federer trails Nadal on outdoor hard courts 5-2 and has always trailed on outdoor hard courts. He owns Nadal indoors since Nadal is pretty much useles indoors thus far in his career, no other reason really. Of course it detracts from Nadal somewhat that he is a very bad player indoors, but it also shows the only places Federer has been able to overcome Nadal apart from holding back a very good Nadal in the 2007 Wimbledon final despite being badly crushed from the baseline all day long, is a 19 year old Nadal in his fluke early appearance in a Wimbledon final, and Nadal indoors where he basically sucks. Never on clay obviously, never on outdoor hard courts in any real way, never on grass when Nadal was any good on the surface apart from that lone occasion in the 07 final where Federer had to pull off one of his most determined efforts ever to win.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Gaudio won a major in the Federer/Nadal era. So did Del Potro, a player who hasnt even been able to win a Masters title. Soderling reached 2 slam finals at the same event in back to back years, a marginal player compared to even those you mentioned. Berdych reached a Wimbledon final. So dont be so sure on your claim.

The 2004 FO is the last really "open" major, Gaudio took his chance and won, good for him.

Del Potro had to go through both Nadal and Federer to win the 2009 US Open. Who from the 90's would you pick to do so, other than maybe Sampras?

The rest are finalists which I don't care about, there have been fluky finalists in every era and that won't change, heck Berdych played in a Wimbledon final not more than 2 years ago.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Fed dominated during a transitional era and beat all the mental midgets that were put in front of him, which is all he could do. He won his Slams fair and square but to suggest that he did it during a challenging, competitive era is simply untrue. The facts speak for themselves.

You assume that domination is impossible cause it means that the era was weak.

Also the "tough competition" as you call it hasn't really change that much in the last 5 years or so, only Djokovic was added at the top but players ranked 5th and lower are pretty much useless compared to the same group of 2004.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Actually Federer losing at Wimbledon in recent years has helped his H2H with Nadal. Had they played at Wimbledon 2010 and 2011 as most expected them to, Federer would likely have a 2-3 and losing record vs Nadal on grass now, but was able to preserve his winning record by losing earlier than expected at Wimbledon both years. It will be interesting to see if Federer can avoid playing Nadal on grass ever again to keep this advantage preserved.

As for hard courts, Federer trails Nadal on outdoor hard courts 5-2 and has always trailed on outdoor hard courts. He owns Nadal indoors since Nadal is pretty much useles indoors thus far in his career, no other reason really.

Once again, it's all Federer's fault that the h2h is still "in his favor". Let's just dismiss the fact that Nadal during all those years was good enough to only meet him on clay and only occasionally on other surfaces.

Why won't you use the arguement that Federer is skewing the h2h because he hasn't faced Nadal on clay this year yet?
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Once again, it's all Federer's fault that the h2h is still "in his favor". Let's just dismiss the fact that Nadal during all those years was good enough to only meet him on clay and only occasionally on other surfaces.

Why won't you use the arguement that Federer is skewing the h2h because he hasn't faced Nadal on clay this year yet?

A 18-21 year old Federer, the so called hard court GOAT according to ****s, wasnt even able to make it past the round of 16 of a single hard court slam. He couldnt even make it past the round of 16 at the U.S Open until age 23 (lol). Yet lets now blame 18-21 year old Nadal, the so called hard court mug, luckiest U.S Open, Australian Open, Olympic, Indian Wells multiple times over, etc...winner in history, for not making hard court slam finals and semis at that age. Great stuff. Also lets blame Nadal for not making the Wimbledon final until something like his 4th grass tournament ever. He should have made it at age 16 and 17.
 

Swissv2

Hall of Fame
This thread is now officially dead. The arguments I see getting thrown back and forth is like the old time scientists passionately arguing that the sun revolved around the earth. It's kinda like the majority of posters have been reduced to the "girls" rooting for "Team Fed" and the other "girls" rooting for "Team Nadal".


Well let me tell you kids something...their skin does not sparkle in the sun.
 

merlinpinpin

Hall of Fame
Agreed. Nadal has faced terribly tough competition, not only from his two peers Murray and Djokovic, but from Jo Tsonga, Soddy, Berdych, and the tail end of the Federer prime years.

You really have to make up your mind here. Federer has faced subpar competition and Nadal has faced terribly tough competition... in the same players?!? :confused:

So either you mean "Federer has faced subpar competition *for him*" and "Nadal has faced terribly tough competition *for him*", ie "Federer is so much better than Nadal that we should use different yardsticks to measure their respective achievements", or this makes no sense at all.

But in the 1990s there was Muster, Bruguera (who owns a winning record against Pistol Pete), Agassi, Courier, Moya, and Kuerten. That's a logjam at the top if there ever was one.

Have to disagree on that one, too. Not going back to your (previous) long post, but you said in this one, basically, that the 90's were much more competitive because Sampras had Agassi as a rival. Truth is, though, that Agassi wasn't there for most of Sampras' era, and you could argue that Pistol Pete thrived because he had absolutely no rival (Agassi was basically there in 94/95, then came back in 99 to overtake Sampras). The rest of the time, you could argue that Sampras was alone at the top, against guys who made a good run for a few months, got to the #1 spot (because he wasn't good enough to stop them/couldn't be bothered to put in the effort) and then faded. I mean, just look at your shortlist above. Courier just disappeared when he lost the #1 spot, and the others were claycourters, with Sampras being a total non-factor on clay anyway. So their being there or not had no bearing at all on his career (Muster, Bruguera, Moya, and Kuerten took a combined 0 slam out of him off clay). And you're basically left with Agassi, who won a grand total of 2 slams to Sampras' 10 during the years when Pete was #1 (plus 2 to 1 in 99). So not much of a challenge, all things considered.

Using the argument that "Federer didn't lose enough" to show that his competition was subpar is circular reasoning, and the smallest amount of logic shows that it is hopelessly flawed. The only thing that Federer's results show is that, during his prime, he was so much better than the rest of the field (except Nadal on clay). Not necessarily that the field was weak, mind you. This is just a *possibility*. Just like it is possible that Federer was just so much better and would have won several calendar grand slams had he played in an era without any rival, like Sampras in the 90's. Either or both are just as likely, there's just no way of knowing.
 
Last edited:

mandy01

G.O.A.T.
NadalAgassi;6593192[QUOTE said:
]Nadal accomplished way more in the 2008-2010 period than Federer did (26-29 year old Federer, not 30 year old Federer).
Nadal won 6 slams in that period. Roger won four. That isn't way more. At some point, Roger was going to drop. You were saying?

That period was much more the Nadal era than it ever was the Federer era.
The point is Djokovic was nowhere in the equation during the period. Federer era or not is irrelevant. If people are going to slight Roger for not winning majors in a period Djokovic wasn't giant, the same is easily applicable to Nadal who, infact, and unlike Roger, didn't win a single match against Djokovic in a major, in his peak year.

Nadal was light years better in 2010, way better in 2008, and only marginally worse (due to injuries alone) in 2009.
Yeah, cool. Nadal got better in the year Roger got worse due to mono. Happens :). Then he had a drop the very next year and was back up again in 2010 when all his rivals, including Roger were slumping big time. See what I did there? :)

Also being better than a 17-20 year old Nadal is no stupendous feat, the only Nadal which Federer was ever better than for any substained period.
Being better than a favourable match-up (Roger) having mono for a while, slumping, and also having back problems in a two year period isn't something stupendous either. Two can play that game.
 
Last edited:

mandy01

G.O.A.T.
A 18-21 year old Federer, the so called hard court GOAT according to ****s, wasnt even able to make it past the round of 16 of a single hard court slam. He couldnt even make it past the round of 16 at the U.S Open until age 23 (lol). Yet lets now blame 18-21 year old Nadal, the so called hard court mug, luckiest U.S Open, Australian Open, Olympic, Indian Wells multiple times over, etc...winner in history, for not making hard court slam finals and semis at that age. Great stuff. Also lets blame Nadal for not making the Wimbledon final until something like his 4th grass tournament ever. He should have made it at age 16 and 17.

Yes, and? If Nadal is so good according to you '****s, he should be able to match or better Roger at 30 since you seem so keen on bringing up Roger's early years. Nadal was already a major champion by 19. If it took him FOUR years after his first major to muster up a Hard Court major final, that will be held against him if you're going to hold Roger not making the 2010/2011 finals at Wimbledon, at 29/30 and carrying injuries both times, particularly in 2010, against him. Now go back to your cave.

And what's with the constant dismissal of indoors from fans who get their knickers in a twist if somebody brings up clay, which infact skews the H2H far more than indoors ever has. Not to mention, nearly all of the Roger-Nadal outdoor HC meetings have been on terribly slow, high-bouncing courts in the first half of the year. Yeah, earth-shattering stuff again :lol:
 
Last edited:

Flash O'Groove

Hall of Fame
Using the argument that "Federer didn't lose enough" to show that his competition was subpar is circular reasoning, and the smallest amount of logic shows that it is hopelessly flawed. The only thing that Federer's results show is that, during his prime, he was so much better than the rest of the field (except Nadal on clay). Not necessarily that the field was weak, mind you. This is just a *possibility*. Just like it is possible that Federer was just so much better and would have won several calendar grand slams had he played in an era without any rival, like Sampras in the 90's. Either or both are just as likely, there's just no way of knowing.

It is useless to continue an arguing if the argument you pointed is not listened. As you said, we only know that Federer was better thant his opponents, and we can't know if it was because they were weak, or if he was great. And it is the same for ALL champion. Nadal dominated 2008 and 2010, but we have no idea if it was because he is so good or if the opposition just wasn't there.

Personnaly I prefer to congratulate the winner and I acknowledge the domination of each players: Federer, then Nadal, then Djokovic, even if I agree that we could argue endlessy about the valor of the opponents. Was Nadal at his "true" level last year? Is Murray, a very consistent player, a more difficult opponent in slam final than Andy Roddick?
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
You assume that domination is impossible cause it means that the era was weak.

Also the "tough competition" as you call it hasn't really change that much in the last 5 years or so, only Djokovic was added at the top but players ranked 5th and lower are pretty much useless compared to the same group of 2004.

So you think a player who announces himself with one of the best years in tennis history is not that big a deal :confused:

And you also think that Nadal is the same player he was in 2004 :confused:

Nice try, but your rebuttal is weak.

Point is; the competition level is higher post 2008 than between 2004-07. Post 2008 we have 3 open era greats competing, 2004-07 there was only one.
 

merlinpinpin

Hall of Fame
So you think a player who announces himself with one of the best years in tennis history is not that big a deal :confused:

And you also think that Nadal is the same player he was in 2004 :confused:

Nice try, but your rebuttal is weak.

Point is; the competition level is higher post 2008 than between 2004-07. Post 2008 we have 3 open era greats competing (1), 2004-07 there was only one(2).

Bolded part: you're not making one point, but two, that is:

(1) Post 2008 we have 3 open era greats competing
(2) 2004-07 there was only one

However, this doesn't mean that competition is higher in (1) than in (2). You *may* have a point if you were consistent in your reasoning and started by stating the fact that the weakest era in the Open Era was the 90's (which is consistent with the arguments you're bringing forward). Unfortunately, that's not what you are saying, so I'm afraid you come across as someone with an agenda.

As to the part in blue, you seem to have no trouble thinking that Federer is the same player he was in 2004, so yet again, double standards = poster with an agenda. As long as you stay away from fair thinking, there's no way you can get around this.
 
Last edited:

Flash O'Groove

Hall of Fame
Point is; the competition level is higher post 2008 than between 2004-07. Post 2008 we have 3 open era greats competing (1), 2004-07 there was only one(2).

Open era greats do not have the same level of plays each year, so it doesn't mean anything. Djokovic was already here but he wasn't a great until 2011, while Federer wasn't good too in 2008 and 2010.

Otherwise, why do you discount Nadal and Agassi of your count of Open era greats? Agassi was there until 2005, Nadal since 2005.

And you don't take into account that some players may have become open era greats had they not met Federer in 3 slam final and two semi-final? Of course players from 2004-2005 have a poor palmares because of Federer, just like Fed has a "poor" one at RG because of Nadal.
 
Top