Would Seles have won more slams than Graf if not for the stabbing?

hoodjem · Apr 23, 2013

TMF said:
Most GS titles
player total
1 Steffi Graf 22
2 Martina Navratilova 18
2 Chris Evert 18
4 Serena Williams 15
5 Margaret Court 11
6 Monica Seles 9
7 Billie Jean King 8
8 Justine Henin 7
8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 7
8 Venus Williams 7

Most GS finals
Rank Name Total
1 Chris Evert 34 (18 )
2 Martina Navrátilová 32 (18 )
3 Steffi Graf 31 (22)
4 Evonne Goolagong 18 (7)
5 Serena Williams 19 (15)
6 Venus Williams 14 (7)
7 Monica Seles 13 (9)
8 Margaret Court 12 (11)
8 Martina Hingis 12 (5)
8 Billie Jean Moffitt 12 (8 )

Most single titles
Rank Player Singles
1 Martina Navratilova 167
2 Chris Evert 157
3 Steffi Graf 107
4 Margaret Court 92
5 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 68
6 Billie Jean King 67
7 Lindsay Davenport 55
8 Virginia Wade 55
9 Monica Seles 53
10 Serena Williams 47*

Most weeks at #1
Rank Player weeks
1 Steffi Graf 377
2 Martina Navratilova 332
3 Chris Evert 260
4 Martina Hingis 209
5 Monica Seles 178
6 Serena Williams * 133
7 Justine Henin 117
8 Lindsay Davenport 98
9 Caroline Wozniacki* 67
10 Victoria Azarenka* 45

Consecutive weeks at #1
1 Steffi Graf (1) 186
2 Martina Navratilova (1) 156
3 Chris Evert (1) 113
4 Steffi Graf (2) 94
5 Monica Seles (1) 91
6 Martina Navratilova (2) 90
7 Steffi Graf (3) 87
8 Martina Hingis (1) 80
9 Chris Evert (2) 76
10 Martina Hingis (2) 73

Year end No. 1 players
player year
Steffi Graf 8
Martina Navratilova 7
Chris Evert 5
Lindsay Davenport 4
Justine Henin 3
Martina Hingis
Monica Seles
Caroline Wozniacki 2
Serena Williams 2
Jelena Jankovic 1
Victoria Azarenka 1

All surface single winning percentage
Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1 Margaret Court 593 56 91.37
2 Chris Evert 1309 146 89.97
3 Steffi Graf 902 115 88.69
4 Martina Navratilova 1442 219 86.82
5 Serena Williams*[1] 554 108 83.68
6 Monica Seles 595 122 82.98
7 Justine Henin* 503 109 82.18
8 Billie Jean King 695 155 81.76
9 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 704 165 81.01

Clay court singles career winning percentage
Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1 Chris Evert 310 20 93.94
2 Steffi Graf 273 30 90.1
3 Justine Henin* 130 22 85.83
4 Monica Seles 142 25 85.03
5 Martina Hingis 109 25 81.34
6 Martina Navratilova 202 47 81.12
7 Gabriela Sabatini 196 49 80
8 Maria Sharapova 79 20 79.80
9 Serena Williams 104 29 78.20
8 Venus Williams 143 40 78.14

Hard court singles career winning percentage
Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1 Steffi Graf 335 36 90.3
2 Chris Evert 304 37 89.15
3 Martina Navratilova 340 48 87.63
4 Monica Seles 311 59 84.05
5 Serena Williams* 333 60 84.73
6 Kim Clijsters 323 69 82.40
7 Justine Henin 251 56 81.76
8 Venus Williams* 335 80 80.72
9 Maria Sharapova* 264 66 80
10 Lindsay Davenport 469 116 80.17

Grass court singles career winning percentage
Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1 Martina Navratilova 305 39 88.66
2 Chris Evert 184 25 88.04
3 Serena Williams* 63 10 86.30
4 Venus Williams* 74 11 85.39
5 Steffi Graf 85 15 85
6 Maria Sharapova* 65 13 83.33
7 Justine Henin 53 11 82.81
8 Jana Novotna 79 21 79
9 Tracy Austin 43 12 78.18
10 Kim Clijsters 56 16 77.78

Carpet court singles career winning percentage
Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1 Martina Navratilova 516 58 89.9
2 Steffi Graf 189 23 89.2
3 Chris Evert 209 39 84.3
4 Serena Williams* 34 7 82.93
5 Martina Hingis 97 23 80.83
6 Kim Clijsters 50 13 79.37
= Monica Seles 98 26 79.03
8 Lindsay Davenport 93 27 77.5
9 Tracy Austin 85 25 77.27
10 Venus Williams* 50 17 74.63

Most singles matches won
Player Wins
1 Martina Navratilova 1442
2 Chris Evert 1309
3 Steffi Graf 902
4 Virginia Wade 839
5 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 759
6 Lindsay Davenport 753
7 Conchita Martínez 739
8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley[5] 704
9 Billie Jean King 695
10 Gabriela Sabatini 632

Most match winning streak(all surfaces)
Rank Player Matches
1 Martina Navratilova 74
2 Steffi Graf 66
3 Martina Navratilova 58
4 Margaret Court 57
5 Chris Evert 55
6 Martina Navratilova 54
7 Steffi Graf 46
8 Steffi Graf 45
9 Steffi Graf 44
10 Martina Navratilova 41

Most consecutive singles titles
1. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
2. 12 - Margaret Court (1972-1973)
3. 11 - Steffi Graf (1989-1990)
4. 10 - Chris Evert (1974)
5. 9 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
5. 9 - Margaret Court (1970)
7. 8 - Steffi Graf (1988 )
7. 8 - Martina Navratilova (1983)

Best annual singles winning percentage
1 Martina Navratilova 98.9
2 Steffi Graf 97.7
3 Martina Navratilova 97.5
4 Steffi Graf 97.4
5 Martina Navratilova 96.8
6 Martina Navratilova 96.7
7 Steffi Graf 96
8 Margaret Court 95.3
9 Chris Evert 94.9
10 Margaret Court 94.8

Most consecutive years winning at least one singles title
1. 21 - Martina Navratilova (1974-1994)
2. 18 - Chris Evert (1971-1988 )
3. 14 - Steffi Graf (1986-1999)
4. 11 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970-1980)
4. 11 - Virginia Wade (1968-1978 )
6. 9 - Sandra Cecchini (1984-1992)
6. 9 - Margaret Court (1968-1976)
6. 9 - Lindsay Davenport (1993-2001)
6. 9 - Conchita Martinez (1988-1996)
6. 9 - Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (1988-1996)

Most singles titles won in a year
1. 21 - Margaret Court (1970)
2. 18 - Margaret Court (1969, 1973)
3. 17 - Billie Jean King (1971)
4. 16 - Chris Evert (1974, 1975)
4. 16 - Martina Navratilova (1983)
6. 15 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970)
6. 15 - Martina Navratilova (1982)
8. 14 - Margaret Court (1968 )
8. 14 - Steffi Graf (1989)
8. 14 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
11. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
12. 12 - Chris Evert (1973, 1976)
12. 12 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1971)
12. 12 - Martina Navratilova (1985)
15. 11 - Tracy Austin (1980)
15. 11 - Chris Evert (1977)
15. 11 - Steffi Graf (1987, 1988 )
15. 11 - Martina Navratilova (1978, 1979)

TMF,

Where do you find these cool (and accesible) statistics?

THUNDERVOLLEY · Apr 23, 2013

TMF said:
Goat criteria is based on player's entire achievement,

Wrong.

You were not around to hear players, sports media, etc. calling Laver the GOAT when he won the Grand Slam, or the same when Graf won hers--and both were nowhere near the end of their careers at the point it was achieved. The GOAT distinction centered on the Grand Slam. If you were even remotely aware of this, you would not post irrelevant pad jobs as an attempt to make up for a certain player's eternal failure--the failure which forever removes him from any GOAT consideration.

It was not meant to be.

Talker · Apr 23, 2013

NadalAgassi said:
Very true. Graf is #1 all time, Serena is #2, and Navratilova is a strong #3. Most everyone realizes that. Serena needs the Grand Slam to surpass Graf, a prerequisite for any female or male GOAT. In terms of playing abiilty Serena is the best of all, above Graf, and the great Graf herself has admited this, but the lack of the Grand Slam is the only thing keeping her from GOAT status.

Serena only has 47 titles, not even best 5.

She is so short on so many areas it's a joke.
Don't bring her up anymore.

TMF · Apr 23, 2013

hoodjem said:
TMF,

Where do you find these cool (and accesible) statistics?

I've compiled this list long time ago and save it on my PC.

TMF · Apr 23, 2013

THUNDERVOLLEY said:
Wrong.

No, you're wrong. This is the expert's criteria in order of most important:

* Number of Major Titles won
* Overall performance at Grand Slam Events
* Player Ranking
* Performance at ATP/WTA events
* Performance at Davis & Fed Cup events
* Records held or broken
* Intangibles(contribuition to tennis)

THUNDERVOLLEY said:
You were not around to hear players, sports media, etc. calling Laver the GOAT when he won the Grand Slam, or the same when Graf won hers--and both were nowhere near the end of their careers at the point it was achieved. The GOAT distinction centered on the Grand Slam. If you were even remotely aware of this, you would not post irrelevant pad jobs as an attempt to make up for a certain player's eternal failure--the failure which forever removes him from any GOAT consideration.

It was not meant to be.

You were not around when these legends said Roger is the greatest.

"I have to give it to him," he said. "He's won all the majors[15] now, and he will win a few more. So in my book he is."
-Sampras

“For me he is the greatest player ever to play the game”
-Borg

“Roger is just the greatest player of all time”
-McEnroe

“Roger Federer certainly is my claim to be the best of all time if there is such a thing”
-Laver

Again...

THUNDERVOLLEY said:
No Grand Slam. No GOAT.

THUNDERVOLLEY said:
But that's not too much of a surprise, since Federer failed to win the Grand Slam, so he's no GOAT in the sport, either.

by your own admission...Court > Serena.

BTURNER · Apr 23, 2013

TMF said:
I've compiled this list long time ago and save it on my PC.

You should add a majors semifinalist listing. Recognise the difference between losing in the first or second round and making it to the final four. It shows consistency in achievement if you are a constant threat to win majors right up to the end of the tournament.

TMF · Apr 23, 2013

Talker said:
Serena only has 47 titles, not even best 5.

She is so short on so many areas it's a joke.
Don't bring her up anymore.

Unfortunately that will never happen. :evil:

AngieB · Apr 23, 2013

Mustard said:
http://law.justia.com/cases/california/cal2d/49/483.html

From the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0917.html

"Although she had hoped to resume her tennis career upon recovery--probably as a professional--the injury proved more serious than was originally thought and she announced her retirement in February, 1955."

"Until her death, Mrs. Brinker had devoted herself to teaching the game to youngsters."

I was always under the impression that Maureen's decision to turn professional came after and as a result of the accident. She wanted to teach youth tennis.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...jErAAAAIBAJ&sjid=RJkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4580,1259399

Angie B

Angie B

THUNDERVOLLEY · Apr 23, 2013

TMF said:
You were not around when these legends said Roger is the greatest.

You would not waste endless hours trolling threads / defending Federer's weak record if you believed he was a GOAT. You would not need to make inane comments revealing how you had no idea the Grand Slam was considered the greatest tennis achievement...or it is just a matter of you saying anything to pump Federer's Grand Slam-less record.

He was not talented / dominant enough to win the Grand Slam.

kiki · Apr 23, 2013

Guys lets talk bout serious questions now
I miss Martina love& hate relationship with Annia
How lovely both together at 2010 Wimbledon
Best tennis picture in years

AngieB · Apr 24, 2013

NadalAgassi said:
Where did you hear this? It is the first time I have heard it. Do you have a link about it. That would be interesting to know. I have heard she wasnt really loving tennis anymore by that point, even before the accident.

Throughout the years, there have been many stories about Maureen's early retirement that have circulated the tennis community.

The first being, that her original plan was to quit tennis and marry Norman Brinker before the horseriding accident. The second is that Maureen had planned before the horseriding accident to turn professional in 1954 after the US Championships. Maureen's decision to marry and turn professional were both made after her accident.

As we have learned from other retired professionals (Agassi, Graf, etc) some who excelled at the sport in their youth weren't necessarily in love with playing tennis all the time. It is no secret that Maureen also had similar dark feelings about tennis.

The revelations about her transition into professional tennis came as a result of a lawsuit she filed against the Cement company that caused her horseriding accident. Monetary damages had to be assessed by the standard of playing professionally which is how a dollar figured was determined. However, that revelation and monetary assessment by no means should be used as an attempt to change tennis history.

The horseriding accident set forth a series of career-changing decisions for Maureen. We don't really know what Maureen would or wouldn't have done if the horseriding accident hadn't happened. However, if we apply other like-minded pros in tennis history who felt the same way about tennis as she did in her youth, Maureen likely would have followed their similar path and continued playing grand slam tennis.

Angie B

TMF · Apr 24, 2013

THUNDERVOLLEY said:
You would not waste endless hours trolling threads / defending Federer's weak record if you believed he was a GOAT. You would not need to make inane comments revealing how you had no idea the Grand Slam was considered the greatest tennis achievement...or it is just a matter of you saying anything to pump Federer's Grand Slam-less record.

Let me know whenever historians/experts say the GS is a must to be a goat and everything else is meaningless. As you have ridiculously claimed:

THUNDERVOLLEY said:
No Grand Slam. No GOAT.

THUNDERVOLLEY said:
But that's not too much of a surprise, since Federer failed to win the Grand Slam, so he's no GOAT in the sport, either.

THUNDERVOLLEY said:
He was not talented / dominant enough to win the Grand Slam.

He's the only talented player to win 17 slams, 300+ weeks at #1 and hold most of the tennis records. It's not a secret that ex-players anointed Federer is the greatest player of all time.

"I have to give it to him," he said. "He's won all the majors[15] now, and he will win a few more. So in my book he is."
-Sampras

“For me he is the greatest player ever to play the game”
-Borg

“Roger is just the greatest player of all time”
-McEnroe

“Roger Federer certainly is my claim to be the best of all time if there is such a thing”
-Laver

THUNDERVOLLEY · Apr 24, 2013

^ Evidence you have no knowledge of tennis history and the distinction of the Grand Slam before the start date of your obsession (sometime in the 2000s).

That is the only way to explain your attempt to pump up the career of the Grand Slam-less Federer.

On his best day, he was not talented / dominant enough to reach that level.

fluffyyelloballz · Apr 24, 2013

When Graf won the Grand Slam in 1988, it was huge. The first player to do it on four different surfaces-when they were actually different. She, herself, was very calm about it all but her doing it in the twilight years of two greats in Navratilova and Evert, players she also effectively put out to pasture, made it look even more of an achievement.
In fact, for a while, even up until 1991, Graf was widely acknowledged as potentially the greatest player of all time.
Which is why people's claim that it was only because Seles got stabbed that she achieved that status surprises me. As if pre-Seles she was some sort of scrub. When Seles got stabbed, Graf was a Golden slam winning, four time Wimbledon champ who ended the year end number one four times and in three of those years was the only number one. Not only that but she had won more than 70 titles before the stabbing!
Graf was already going to be on the GOAT list stabbing or not.

AngieB · Apr 24, 2013

I hear all of this discussion about GOAT in women's tennis and haven't heard one peep about Helen Wills Moody. She is easily in the top five for consideration but rarely is she discussed.

Part of me believes this lack of recognition is generational and newer fans of the sport aren't as historically privy. We all know that her grand slam totals are deflated because like so many others, never made the trip to Australia. Had Helen got on that boat, this conversation about Graf-Seles would be irrevelant.

AngieB

BTURNER · Apr 24, 2013

AngieB said:
Throughout the years, there have been many stories about Maureen's early retirement that have circulated the tennis community.

The first being, that her original plan was to quit tennis and marry Norman Brinker before the horseriding accident. The second is that Maureen had planned before the horseriding accident to turn professional in 1954 after the US Championships. Maureen's decision to marry and turn professional were both made after her accident.

As we have learned from other retired professionals (Agassi, Graf, etc) some who excelled at the sport in their youth weren't necessarily in love with playing tennis all the time. It is no secret that Maureen also had similar dark feelings about tennis.

The revelations about her transition into professional tennis came as a result of a lawsuit she filed against the Cement company that caused her horseriding accident. Monetary damages had to be assessed by the standard of playing professionally which is how a dollar figured was determined. However, that revelation and monetary assessment by no means should be used as an attempt to change tennis history.

The horseriding accident set forth a series of career-changing decisions for Maureen. We don't really know what Maureen would or wouldn't have done if the horseriding accident hadn't happened. However, if we apply other like-minded pros in tennis history who felt the same way about tennis as she did in her youth, Maureen likely would have followed their similar path and continued playing grand slam tennis.

Angie B

I think to ignore her own testimony about her intentions, and replace it with "like-minded pros in tennis history" is ridiculous. I can't think of a more spacious notion than to believe you can condense, measure or compare 'like minded pros', after you have figured out how each has felt in their youth about tennis and exclude those who are disimilar.

I am inclined to accept her own documented account of her intentions absent documented proof she had different intentions.

Mustard · Apr 24, 2013

AngieB said:
I hear all of this discussion about GOAT in women's tennis and haven't heard one peep about Helen Wills Moody. She is easily in the top five for consideration but rarely is she discussed.

Part of me believes this lack of recognition is generational and newer fans of the sport aren't as historically privy. We all know that her grand slam totals are deflated because like so many others, never made the trip to Australia. Had Helen got on that boat, this conversation about Graf-Seles would be irrevelant.

AngieB

What about Suzanne Lenglen?

boredone3456 · Apr 24, 2013

AngieB said:
I hear all of this discussion about GOAT in women's tennis and haven't heard one peep about Helen Wills Moody. She is easily in the top five for consideration but rarely is she discussed.

Part of me believes this lack of recognition is generational and newer fans of the sport aren't as historically privy. We all know that her grand slam totals are deflated because like so many others, never made the trip to Australia. Had Helen got on that boat, this conversation about Graf-Seles would be irrevelant.

AngieB

Most people dismiss Moody and Lenglen because they played before the open era back in the stone age of tennis. That and the "weak competition" argument keeps getting thrown around in regards to both of them as well. Both were amazing and decimated everyone year in year out. They definitely deserve credit but for many, if they haven't seen them play on TV or on YouTube they don't even get mentioned. What some may not realize is before Court came along Moody and Wills were the only ones in the double digits for slams on then ladies side and they were the standard. Court came along and then Martina Chris and Steffi in quick succession and all of a sudden no one cares.

Both were so good they have amazing records
Lenglen won the 1920 singles gold medal at the Olympics losing only 4 games(3 of which were in one match), she won 3 medals in that olympics as well. She won at least 7 tournaments without dropping a game and I believe never lost a major final.

Moody went like 7 years not dropping a set and at all but 2 majors she entered she made the finals (the other 2 were defaulted due to an appendectomy)

Sadly that was to long ago so very few seem go give them the credit they deserve.

However I think it is unfair to say had wills played the Aussie graf wouldn't be in the picture...with 22 majors she sure would be.

AngieB · Apr 24, 2013

BTURNER said:
I think to ignore her own testimony about her intentions, and replace it with "like-minded pros in tennis history" is ridiculous. I can't think of a more spacious notion than to believe you can condense, measure or compare 'like minded pros', after you have figured out how each has felt in their youth about tennis and exclude those who are disimilar.

I am inclined to accept her own documented account of her intentions absent documented proof she had different intentions.

If Maureen had stated her intentions of remaining amateur and playing grand slam tennis during this legal proceeding, she would not have been awarded monetary damages related to estimated professional wages, endorsements, etc. lost. Remember, she sued for monetary damages in a legal proceeding and had to prove a monetary loss from professional tennis that did not exist in grand slam amateur tennis in the 1950's. Maureen had ample motivation during that legal proceeding to state her intention was to turn professional.

It really boils down to intent before and after the accident. I always believed that before the accident, she had no intention of turning professional. After the accident, she probably knew she couldn't endure the rigors of amateur grand slam tennis and chose to play professionally with less strenuous exhibition scheduling. During this window, Maureen learned she couldn't play competitively anymore, which prompted the lawsuit.

AngieB

AngieB · Apr 24, 2013

boredone3456 said:
Most people dismiss Moody and Lenglen because they played before the open era back in the stone age of tennis. That and the "weak competition" argument keeps getting thrown around in regards to both of them as well. Both were amazing and decimated everyone year in year out. They definitely deserve credit but for many, if they haven't seen them play on TV or on YouTube they don't even get mentioned. What some may not realize is before Court came along Moody and Wills were the only ones in the double digits for slams on then ladies side and they were the standard. Court came along and then Martina Chris and Steffi in quick succession and all of a sudden no one cares.

Both were so good they have amazing records
Lenglen won the 1920 singles gold medal at the Olympics losing only 4 games(3 of which were in one match), she won 3 medals in that olympics as well. She won at least 7 tournaments without dropping a game and I believe never lost a major final.

Moody went like 7 years not dropping a set and at all but 2 majors she entered she made the finals (the other 2 were defaulted due to an appendectomy)

Sadly that was to long ago so very few seem go give them the credit they deserve.

However I think it is unfair to say had wills played the Aussie graf wouldn't be in the picture...with 22 majors she sure would be.

Thank you for your eloquent response. I enjoyed the read.

As it pertains to Wills Moody and Graf, its not so much I think Graf wouldn't be in the picture. But if Wills Moody had played the Australian Championships, her grand slam singles total would stand today as best ever.

Just even in this thread you see Helen's name omitted from lists of grand slam singles winners. Its just the oddest thing I've ever seen. She won (19), more than Navratilova, Evert, and Williams and she's given absolutely no credit. The Open Era champions had the advantage of travel, medicine and technology that Helen's generation didn't.

About Suzanne Lenglen. Abbreviated. It sounds and looks weird, but I can't shake that feeling. While she was the first woman to turn professional and headline an exhibition alongside other male professionals, her early career was largely affected by World War I, travel, and to large degree, health, later. I think Serena Williams best exudes her spirit. Bold, trend-setting.

AngieB

AngieB · Apr 24, 2013

Top Grand Slam Singles Winners (Women)

1. Margaret Court 24
2. Steffi Graf 22
3. Helen Wills Moody 19
4. Chris Evert 18
5. Martina Navratilova 18
6. Serena Williams 15
7. Billie Jean King 12
8. Maureen Connolly Brinker 9
9. Monica Seles 9
10. Suzanne Lenglen 8
10. Molla Bjurstedt Mallory 8

kiki · Apr 24, 2013

AngieB said:
Top Grand Slam Singles Winners (Women)

1. Margaret Court 24
2. Steffi Graf 22
3. Helen Wills Moody 19
4. Chris Evert 18
5. Martina Navratilova 18
6. Serena Williams 15
7. Billie Jean King 12
8. Maureen Connolly Brinker 9
9. Monica Seles 9
10. Suzanne Lenglen 8
10. Molla Bjurstedt Mallory 8

It is between Court and Graf with Navratilova,Wills,Connolly coming close.

DMan · Apr 25, 2013

NadalAgassi said:
Very true. Graf is #1 all time, Serena is #2, and Navratilova is a strong #3. Most everyone realizes that. Serena needs the Grand Slam to surpass Graf, a prerequisite for any female or male GOAT. In terms of playing abiilty Serena is the best of all, above Graf, and the great Graf herself has admited this, but the lack of the Grand Slam is the only thing keeping her from GOAT status.

Oh darling, NadalAgassi gurl! I'm back! Happy to see me, my dear?

:twisted:

Shall we take tea, and discuss your latest missive, on the world's most over discussed topic?

Graf, #1 all-time. Shirley, my dear, YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS! Precious Mons is always #1 all-time. I'm simply verklempt you haven't kept your promise to always speak the truth!

AngieB · Apr 25, 2013

kiki said:
Guys lets talk bout serious questions now
I miss Martina love& hate relationship with Annia
How lovely both together at 2010 Wimbledon
Best tennis picture in years

At the risk of sounding too tough on Martina, I would describe her competitive nature as that of a sociopath. She used every aspect of tennis, the court and psychology to gain advantage over her competitors during her youth. She employed these tactics often and with vigor during a time when most other teenagers were preoccupied with boyfriends, clothes and popularity. Her mental attributes are among the strongest in tennis teen phenom history. I would not want to cross her or pass her in a dark alley alone.

AngieB

NadalAgassi · Apr 25, 2013

DMan said:
Oh darling, NadalAgassi gurl! I'm back! Happy to see me, my dear? :twisted:

Shall we take tea, and discuss your latest missive, on the world's most over discussed topic?

Graf, #1 all-time. Shirley, my dear, YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS! Precious Mons is always #1 all-time. I'm simply verklempt you haven't kept your promise to always speak the truth!

Monica is currently 10th best all time behind Graf, Serena, Navratilova, Evert, Court, Wills Moody, Lenglen, Connolly, and King. No shame being top 10 all time.

Graf is #1 for now, but if Serena wins 4 in a row again, or goes over 20 slams, she will probably have to give up her crown.

NadalAgassi · Apr 25, 2013

Mustard said:
What about Suzanne Lenglen?

I rate Wills higher than Lenglen since she travelled both sides of the border to win, while Lenglen mostly stayed in Europe and took on all comers there. When she travelled to the U.S she got beaten via a mid match retirement, and never returned. Lenglen also retired once Wills emerged and she had a scare from her in their first meeting, while Wills continued playing amateur and then slam tennis alot longer.

Wills and her numbers also stand out much more still today. 19 slams, more than Chris and Martina, 8 Wimbledons more than Graf and all but Navratilova, the most combined French-Wimbledon-U.S Open sever.

I could see one rating Wills as the #1 all time actually, and a good argument for atleast being top 5. Lenglen is more in the 5-8 range somewhere.

AngieB · Apr 25, 2013

NadalAgassi said:
I rate Wills higher than Lenglen since she travelled both sides of the border to win, while Lenglen mostly stayed in Europe and took on all comers there. When she travelled to the U.S she got beaten via a mid match retirement, and never returned. Lenglen also retired once Wills emerged and she had a scare from her in their first meeting, while Wills continued playing amateur and then slam tennis alot longer.

Wills and her numbers also stand out much more still today. 19 slams, more than Chris and Martina, 8 Wimbledons more than Graf and all but Navratilova, the most combined French-Wimbledon-U.S Open sever.

I could see one rating Wills as the #1 all time actually, and a good argument for atleast being top 5. Lenglen is more in the 5-8 range somewhere.

Your discussion certainly sheds light on the constraints of grand slam tennis in the 1920's and 1930's as an amateur. It was Suzanne Lenglen who illuminated the problem by pointing out the financial limitations of playing grand slam tennis as an amateur vs being a paid professional.

Being the first woman to turn professional, Suzanne was forced to defend her position. She poignantly explained how the investment of playing tennis for years as an amateur and not being paid was leaving players without anything to show once they left the sport. Suzanne noted that turning into a paid professional was the next logical step leaving the amateur ranks. She also indicated these limitations halted the advancement of tennis, because only well-to-do athletes could afford to play grand slam amateur tennis consistently. Very outspoken for a woman of her era.

There was about a five year period in Suzanne's teen years during and after World War I when amateur grand slam events weren't played in Europe that hindered her total grand slam singles wins. It is conceivable that she "might" have won three to five more grand slam singles titles in Europe during that period.

While Suzanne certainly defended Europe well, her decision to rarely leave Europe for grand slam events might have hurt her historically. But given the travel constraints placed upon players pre-flight era, its easy to see why her total numbers are less than what you expect from someone of her stature. Some might say that her father's control over her career might hold some culpability. She was great, nonetheless.

The Open Era champions had far less obstacles to face than of previous decades (2 World Wars, antiquated technology, less transcontinental flight, limited medicine). Its why I think Suzanne Lenglen and Helen Wills Moody accomplishments deserve a second-look in the GOAT discussions. Especially Helen Wills Moody.

AngieB

kiki · Apr 25, 2013

AngieB said:
At the risk of sounding too tough on Martina, I would describe her competitive nature as that of a sociopath. She used every aspect of tennis, the court and psychology to gain advantage over her competitors during her youth. She employed these tactics often and with vigor during a time when most other teenagers were preoccupied with boyfriends, clothes and popularity. Her mental attributes are among the strongest in tennis teen phenom history. I would not want to cross her or pass her in a dark alley alone.

AngieB

true, she was a demon disguissed in angel¡¡¡ while Kournikova was an agel disguissed in a demon

BTURNER · Apr 25, 2013

AngieB said:
If Maureen had stated her intentions of remaining amateur and playing grand slam tennis during this legal proceeding, she would not have been awarded monetary damages related to estimated professional wages, endorsements, etc. lost. Remember, she sued for monetary damages in a legal proceeding and had to prove a monetary loss from professional tennis that did not exist in grand slam amateur tennis in the 1950's. Maureen had ample motivation during that legal proceeding to state her intention was to turn professional.

It really boils down to intent before and after the accident. I always believed that before the accident, she had no intention of turning professional. After the accident, she probably knew she couldn't endure the rigors of amateur grand slam tennis and chose to play professionally with less strenuous exhibition scheduling. During this window, Maureen learned she couldn't play competitively anymore, which prompted the lawsuit.

AngieB

Its not that I don't understand your theory and yes there is an economic motive to lie. Its just you are turning her into a perjurer in civil court and assigning greed as the motive. Well, if you are the sort of person who is money hungry, you turn pro earlier rather than later. There can't have been much more she wanted to achieve on the Amateur grind, or much of challenge in those women she was creaming. What was there to stay for?

I guess I am looking for you to provide something to show she intended to stay amateur for several more years besides your gut. I can at least show something suggesting a future plan.

AngieB · Apr 25, 2013

BTURNER said:
Its not that I don't understand your theory and yes there is an economic motive to lie. Its just you are turning her into a perjurer in civil court and assigning greed as the motive. Well, if you are the sort of person who is money hungry, you turn pro earlier rather than later. There can't have been much more she wanted to achieve on the Amateur grind, or much of challenge in those women she was creaming. What was there to stay for?

I guess I am looking for you to provide something to show she intended to stay amateur for several more years besides your gut. I can at least show something suggesting a future plan.

Perjurer? Money hungry? Greed? Wow, you really know how to turn up the drama. Not playing.

AngieB

AngieB · Apr 25, 2013

Just in case someone forgot to read (re: Maureen Connolly)

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0917.html

"Although she had hoped to resume her tennis career upon recovery--probably as a professional--the injury proved more serious than was originally thought and she announced her retirement in February, 1955."

AngieB

BTURNER · Apr 25, 2013

AngieB said:
Perjurer? Money hungry? Greed? Wow, you really know how to turn up the drama. Not playing.

AngieB

Tell me where I am misunderstanding. From the appellate decision,

." The accident occurred in July 1954, and it had been plaintiff's intention to take part in the United States championship tournament and then turn professional in October. She planned to go on a three-months' professional tennis tour, for which she had been offered a percentage of the receipts, with a guarantee of $30,000. It was estimated that she would have received $62,500 if the tour had continued outside the United States, that she would have received additional sums from various sources, such as endorsements of sporting goods and other articles, and that she would have cleared $50,000 during that year. Other witnesses estimated that her earnings during her first year as a professional would have been [49 Cal.2d 489] $75,000. There was evidence that plaintiff had not yet reached the peak of her career and that she could expect at least seven or eight years' participation as a professional.."http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/connolly-v-pre-mixed-concrete-co-26862

Aren't you suggesting that she had not actually planned to accept such an offer at that time, despite what she told the court to establish a foundation for real damages? Then the jury, the civil court and the appelate court were mislead by such statements when damages were awarded based on those false statements to the court? .

Sounds like a rather serious charge you are making and greed would be the motive . I do not see any grounds for it . There is no reason to believe that she did not intend to do precisely what she claimed and you are offering zero evidence.

Would Seles have won more slams than Graf if not for the stabbing?

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