Until you play to 4.5 level you cannot understand the sport of tennis fully

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MurrayMyInspiration

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Tennis below 4.5 is a completely different sport to tennis above 4.5. I would personally go so far as to say that 3.5 or less is not even proper tennis and 4.0 is even difficult to justify as real tennis.

Players below 4.5 just dont have the same understanding of the sport and the game. They dont know what high backhands with kick really are, or what heavy topspin really is. Attacking the net is like walsing in after a shot, these are the types of people that think approach shots at 3.5 level can be used at 5.5 level.

These are the people with an "all court" game that get beaten by a pusher who hits lob slices, these are the people who chip back a lob return and approach the net.

This is not tennis, like softball or real baseball. Tennis is not tennis until you reach at least a 4.5 level.
 
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tennisenthusiast

Hall of Fame
MurrayMyInspiration said:
Tennis below 4.5 is a completely different sport to tennis above 4.5. I would personally go so far as to say that 3.5 or less is not even proper tennis and 4.0 is even difficult to justify as real tennis.

Players below 4.5 just dont have the same understanding of the sport and the game. They dont know what high backhands with kick really are, or what heavy topspin really is. Attacking the net is like walsing in after a shot, these are the types of people that think approach shots at 3.5 level can be used at 5.5 level.

These are the people with an "all court" game that get beaten by a pusher who hits lob slices, these are the people who chip back a lob return and approach the net.

This is not tennis, like softball or real baseball. Tennis is not tennis until you reach at least a 4.5 level.
Click to expand...

Question for you: Do you belong in the >= 4.5 level or < 4.5 level? My comment will follow your answer.
 
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MurrayMyInspiration

Guest
tennisenthusiast said:
Question for you: Do you belong in the >= 4.5 level or < 4.5 level? My comment will follow your answer.
Click to expand...

EDIT It appears I made a mistake my level is greater than 4.5 not less, thank god!
 
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Topspin Shot

Topspin Shot

Legend
First off, how can you say this if you're less than a 4.5? Secondly, I'm going to say that on this one, you have no idea what you're talking about. The 4.5 level is a completely arbitrary distinction, and by your logic, I could say the same about any level. Do you really think a 4.5 knows what heavy spin or pace are? A 4.5+ club player's heavy spin and pace are a world apart from a collegiate or open player's heavy spin and pace, which are a world apart from a professional's heavy spin and pace.
 
G

gmatheis

Hall of Fame
This is a fairly ridiculous post.

Of course there are many levels of tennis.

Even at 4.5 the average D1 player is at a totally different level.

and low level pros mixing it up in futures/challengers is yet another level past D1.

Then you have Pro's who actually make a living playing the game.

From there you have pro's that are often in contention for masters 250 titles

Then there are the pro's that might get lucky and win a 500 and on rare occasion a 1000

Then there are pros that are often in contention for 1000 titles

and finally you have Djoker,Nadal, and Murray ... the group who you can almost be sure will win every major title.

It's all tennis.

personally I'm a 3.5 and my strokes look more like what you might call "real tennis" than some 4.5's I know.
 
Shroud

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
MurrayMyInspiration said:
Tennis below 4.5 is a completely different sport to tennis above 4.5. I would personally go so far as to say that 3.5 or less is not even proper tennis and 4.0 is even difficult to justify as real tennis.

Players below 4.5 just dont have the same understanding of the sport and the game. They dont know what high backhands with kick really are, or what heavy topspin really is. Attacking the net is like walsing in after a shot, these are the types of people that think approach shots at 3.5 level can be used at 5.5 level.

These are the people with an "all court" game that get beaten by a pusher who hits lob slices, these are the people who chip back a lob return and approach the net.

This is not tennis, like softball or real baseball. Tennis is not tennis until you reach at least a 4.5 level.
Click to expand...

Boy are my ears burning on this one!

It really was a great lob approach :)

Man we need a new category of player: Passive aggressive grinder...
 
moonballs

moonballs

Hall of Fame
At first I thought the OP had a point. Maybe tennis is only the real tennis when a pusher can't beat anyone easily like it happens at 3.5 and below. But then I realized Andy Murray is a multiple slams holder.
 
Topspin Shot

Topspin Shot

Legend
moonballs said:
At first I thought the OP had a point. Maybe tennis is only the real tennis when a pusher can't beat anyone easily like it happens at 3.5 and below. But then I realized Andy Murray is a multiple slams holder.
Click to expand...

I can beat a 4.5 purely by pushing. Andy Murray can double bagel me purely by pushing. This entire thread is ridiculous.
 
KineticChain

KineticChain

Hall of Fame
I think what OP is getting at is most of us live in a tennis skill bubble. Some of us may be the king of their local club or public park and think we are hot stuff. These people have yet to be humbled by someone who trains to be more than a rec player.

Around the 4.5 mark... most players have pretty developed technique and have probably hit with high caliber players before and know what it feels like to get run ragged across the court.. basically becoming a puppet for the high level player. Most 4.0 and below would not be able to return many shots from a D1 or higher player.. whereas a 4.5 would be able to sustain a rally but would be out of his comfort zone on most shots. The OP post was kinda blatant.. but there is some truth to it in regard to people who are below a certain level have some cockiness in them because they've never experienced a high caliber player on the other side of the net, this is a run-on sentence.
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Actually, I see where MMI is coming from.
To really experience and understand stuff like forehead and higher bouncing second serves, first serves that just whizz by, overheads put away if the player is standing in short NML, almost NO double faults in a match, constant pounding to your weaker side, the fitness really needed to go toe to toe with someone who can hit just as hard and run as fast as you.......
MMI's kinda blunt, of course. And kind of pig headed about some things, but overall, in this post, he does have a point, whether we like it or not.
 
S

Spin Doctor

Professional
Didn't OP claim to be 5.0 in another thread? Didn't OP claim he is not American and therefore doesn't know ntrp levels in yet another thread? Now he claims to generalize tennis understanding based on ntrp levels. WTF?
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
KineticChain said:
I think what OP is getting at is most of us live in a tennis skill bubble.

Around the 4.5 mark... most players have pretty developed technique and have probably hit with high caliber players before
Click to expand...

I think you make a good point for the OP in your post...I just quoted what I though you said best.

THe Op is a 5.0 player/instructor of at least reasonable experience. Maybe he will share more about that, but while somewhat arrogantly stated, I think I get what he means. The levels below 4.5 are so technique limited and focused. Below 4.5 your tactics and strategies are limited for most players due to execution. Things like fear of coming to net because you might get lobbed or fear of getting pulled in to be passed or someone hitting to the Bh side.

Most 4.5 and above won't have these concerns and at worst case, have it covered in some fashion. Normally at 4.5+ the shots are mostly all there with execution, power and precision that improves as you progress up the scale.

Imo he is correctly intending to state how, at around the 4.5 mark a player normally has most or all of the tools needed to execute the standard patterns and coverages used by even the best players. From that level on up it is more the execution, power, and spin improving and fitting into a playing style given the players attributes.
 
A

Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
Of course there's always a next level.

But I don't think the difference is "understanding" the game of tennis. It's simply in the execution, due to the differences in fitness levels and time spent learning/practicing.
"Understanding" what you need to do on court won't make you a good player. A gifted physique and years and years of practice/training may.

I'm sure a lot of posters on this forum understand the game very well, regardless what level they play at.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
Attila_the_gorilla said:
But I don't think the difference is "understanding" the game of tennis. It's simply in the execution, due to the differences in fitness levels and time spent learning/practicing.
"Understanding" what you need to do on court won't make you a good player. A gifted physique and years and years of practice/training may.
Click to expand...

Imo it's not simply execution and time spent. Many have played a lifetime and most never get past 4.0. While no one thing will MAKE you a good player, understanding what you need to do and how, is likely the most important aspect of improving. It's amazing what a student can learn to do once they clearly understand what is involved.

Yes there is always a next level....but what is involved at the next level past 4.5 is getting more powerful and playing cleaner VS the way most below 4.5 are burdened with chasing better strokes for the most part.
 
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Me Against The World

New User
First of all, NTRP ratings are all bull anyways, it can be so self biased, i bet half of the posters on this forum are "4.5"
Secondly, OP is right in a way though it's not that lower level players understand the game any less more than they can't execute what they know they should do.
 
ilovetennis212

ilovetennis212

Professional
Some people just can't play above 4.5 even though they understand all the skills and tactics of tennis.
Some people just can play above 4.5 even though they don't come to net at all. And they don't serve high speed of service. They are just good pusher and don't understand of variety of tennis. Still above 4.5
What do you think?

In our club, there's one guy who can hit like pros. People say he can easily be 4.5 and over. Even though he doesn't have much variety of shots.. people still think he can beat anybody in our club. But actually I beat him 8 out of 10 times.
And people says I'm 4.0
What do you think?
He can understand tennis fully?
And I beat him most of the times with 4.0 skills?

I say NTRP ranking don't justify the knowledge of tennis.
It's your limits of using your physical strength and skills and tactics.
.....
I say you totally understand tennis if you can tell the momentums, key points, both players' tactics of the day after you watch a match.

I say you don't understand tennis if you can NOT tell momentum shifting and what kind of tactic weren't working after you watch a match.
 
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GuyClinch

Legend
First of all, NTRP ratings are all bull anyways, it can be so self biased, i bet half of the posters on this forum are "4.5"
Secondly, OP is right in a way though it's not that lower level players understand the game any less more than they can't execute what they know they should do.
Click to expand...

Let's not get carried away. If you are in a league - and you are winning half your matches or so at the league level you are in - then you are whatever NTRP you have.

NTRP is not bull its a just a ranking of your results in actual match play. Now self NTRP like this guy - that's bull.

As for the post - Nick Bolleteri was never a 4.5 player and coached some pretty good pros. So you can understand tennis pretty well without playing it.

Just apply this theory to other sports to see how ridiculous it is. Bill Belichick never played pro football - so he can't fully understand football.
 
A

andreh

Professional
GuyClinch said:
Just apply this theory to other sports to see how ridiculous it is. Bill Belichick never played pro football - so he can't fully understand football.
Click to expand...

I.e., Bud Collins cannot understand tennis fully because he was never a pro, (or >4.5)
 
goeblack

goeblack

Rookie
Lets not be too hard on the OP. That is unless he is just trying to bash 4.0 and below.

Perhaps there is some truth in his statement. Maybe he means something like this:

If you take two 4.5 players that are evenly matched, you begin to see a game being played that becomes different than 4.0 and below. Shots now become reliable so both players have some idea what to expect from the other. mishits, where the ball goes nowhere close to where it was intended to go are minimized. Strategy is now a bigger part of the game since the ball remains in play longer.

Someone watching from the sidelines can actually be entertained by this equally matched game as opposed to two 4.0 players.

I am not saying I agree with the OP but to some degree he has a small point.
 
T

Tennisean

Rookie
KineticChain said:
I think what OP is getting at is most of us live in a tennis skill bubble. Some of us may be the king of their local club or public park and think we are hot stuff. These people have yet to be humbled by someone who trains to be more than a rec player.
Click to expand...


Or, to put it another way, a big fish in a small pond.

How we'd do against the whales/pros (e.g. big fish in big pond) is a question better players like to ponder.
 
M

MurrayMyInspiration

Guest
sureshs said:
What is scary is that many teaching pros are not 4.5
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That is very annoying. I am a great tennis coach and player and yet old mugs who cant hit topspin groundies and use continental forehands are the ones who get hours coaching in my club and not me!
 
M

MurrayMyInspiration

Guest
Tennisean said:
Not from what I saw.

The '<' = greater, (for what follows) and '>' =lesser (for what follows)

So '< 4.5' = greater than, from my understanding.
Click to expand...

Your understanding is wrong. You have made a fool of yourself on a pubic internet forum once again.
< = less than 4<9
> = greater than 9>4

Understand now? If not go back to school! :)
 
T

Tennisean

Rookie
MurrayMyInspiration said:
That is very annoying. I am a great tennis coach and player and yet old mugs who cant hit topspin groundies and use continental forehands are the ones who get hours coaching in my club and not me!
Click to expand...

Maybe it's the stench of arrogance that's putting off prospective clients.

Honey attracts more flies than vinegar, so try being humble for a change, and see where that gets you.
 
D

dominikk1985

Legend
sureshs said:
What is scary is that many teaching pros are not 4.5
Click to expand...

here in germany in fact most are. here you can only call you a pro if you make a lincence at the german tennis federation which includes theory and practice.

There are 3 levels: A, B and C

C is the easiest to attain and you can get it below 4.5 although probably most are good match players. most B and A guys are really good tournament players.

most tennis coaches do league play. there are no level based leagues but just different league qualities. the best team from each league will rise a league higher and the worst will drop (team play like in college).

this is like in soccer, unlike the US there is no seperate rec system (like in baseball) which means theoretically any amateur team could raise into the pro league (where top50 ATP pros play) if they are winning consecutive seasons (of course in practice that will rarely happen because larger clubs have more ressources).

most bigger clubs have several teams in different leagues and the level is determined by the coach who nominates for the teams (unless you have a national or world ranking then you have to be ranked accordingly).

there is no real rec level though, if you are really bad you play just with friends. the lowest league starts at about 4.0 level (estimated) and goes up from there.

on top of that the very good players play national ranking tournaments but that does't really happen in the lowest leagues unless they are very young (there are like 8 or 9 different levels and national ranking play starts about in the 3rd to 4th lowest league- those guys are really good at least 5.0 with big serves and topspin groundstrokes).

our clubs highest level team played about in the 5th highest league and their top2 players had a couple ATP points at one point (only a couple points and about 3-4 years ago but you get the point how good the level of play is)

that standartized coaching and league play creates a lot of good players and coaches although germany too failed to produce a great player in the last decade (or more).
 
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Tennisean

Rookie
MurrayMyInspiration said:
Your understanding is wrong. You have made a fool of yourself on a pubic internet forum once again.
< = less than 4<9
> = greater than 9>4

Understand now? If not go back to school! :)
Click to expand...

Oh, I understand, all right.

I 'understand' that;

A) Your reading comprehension skills suck. < = less than, but not for things that follow it, only for what's in front of it.

You posted < 4.5 which means it's greater than. (no matter what school you went to)

B) Going by your logic, You are 'a fool on a pubic internet forum once again'. By using < correctly, then not knowing you did.
 
M

MurrayMyInspiration

Guest
Tennisean said:
Here's the correct usage.

< = 4.5 is greater

> = 4.5 is lesser


Now, school's out!
Click to expand...

Lol you are a moron.
You call me out when you are completely wrong.

Guy asked me my level I said (<4.5 )which means I am 4.0,3.5,3.0,2.0, or lower.

I corrected my typo to announce I was better than the 4.5 level. (>4.5) meaning I am 5.0, 5.5, 6.0, 6.5, 7.0.

So apologise now for being wrong!
 
PhrygianDominant

PhrygianDominant

Hall of Fame
Cheetah said:
Dumb thread. Minus cred points to OP.
Click to expand...

Agree.

I would spout some pseudo philosophical nonsense about objectivity and relativity but what's the point.

This is like the driving joke. Everyone who drives slower than you is an idiot and everyone who drives faster is insane.
 
M

MurrayMyInspiration

Guest
4<5

6>4

the sign < means less than.

My level of tennis is > 4.5 which means I am at least a 5.0 player :)

TennisSean's level of tennis is < 4.0 which means he is at best a high 3.5 :)
 
G

GuyClinch

Legend
What is scary is that many teaching pros are not 4.5
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Those guys aren't club pros - they are just bums trying to hustle a buck or two..

Any respectable club with have pros that are at least 5.0 - and many are 5.5. In fact those are basically your pool of guys with that ranking - usually ex D1 college or ex satellite guys.. Sometimes a D2 college guy..

No one really talks about it on this board but my gut feeling is that many of the guys that are 5.0 and 5.5 in the world are guys on the way DOWN. You basically don't get to those high levels without playing competitively while growing up.. Lots of people can learn to play 4.0 tennis. But 5.0 tennis - you need actual talent.

Teaching pros have it tough if you think about it. No one expects the local football coach to be able to throw the ball 60 yards in the air - or for the local basketball coach to throw it down..

But in tennis all the students want to know how big even the shorter asian pros can smack the serve..Teaching pros have to know something about the game AND be able to play it and pretty high level.

What's worse is that the VERY high level guys - the guys that were on the satellite tour or had a cup of coffee on the pro tour don't have that many guys to hit with that can hang with them.. So they can get rusty fast - depending on the area of course..
 
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Torres

Banned
Tennisean said:
Here's the correct usage.

< = 4.5 is greater

> = 4.5 is lesser
Click to expand...

Epic_Fail_by_thepaintrain.jpg
 
Timbo's hopeless slice

Timbo's hopeless slice

Hall of Fame
Spin Doctor said:
Didn't OP claim to be 5.0 in another thread? Didn't OP claim he is not American and therefore doesn't know ntrp levels in yet another thread? Now he claims to generalize tennis understanding based on ntrp levels. WTF?
Click to expand...

NTRP is a pretty well known system and easy to relate to the most common rating system used pretty much everywhere else in the world except the US, ITN.

here you go http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_43630_original.PDF

as to the rest of his post, well, :)
 
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