My Hitting Video-Advice Welcome Pt.2

S

shindemac

Hall of Fame
There's 2 things needed to create the whip effect. The first thing is to be loose as I explained.

Let's say you're holding a whip. You would CRACK the whip and know what to do with your arms. Would you wave your arm up and down like those guys ringing the bell during xmas time? No, it wouldn't work. Same with doing the cobra strike. You would use a FLICK. If this concept makes sense, then you should be able to apply it to the serve (or throw) now.

Really, this whip concept goes by other names. This is the kinetic chain. What is happening is one body part is accelerating and moving. Then it needs to STOP moving to give all its energy to the next link in the chain. With the cobra strike, it's easy to understand how this works. There's fewer moving parts. You move your forearm using your elbow joint while your wrist stays relaxed. You use a flick to start and stop. And that's it.

You need to understand and internalize this kinetic chain concept. It's nothing new and people bring it up a lot to generate power on the forehand, serve, etc. To summarize:
1. Stay loose
2. Transfer energy to next link
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Just what I needed, short and sweet explanation. After everyone has explained it to me 5 times I got it down now lol. I'll try to incorporate this into my next throwing video.

The cobra strike was a really good example too, thanks for that
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
If the Cobra strike idea allows your tossing arm to relax, quickly takeback well beyond your right elbow, and then lead forward with that right elbow, you got it.
I"m Asian, watched a lot of Cobra strikes in my days. A real cobra does not rear back and then strike. Instead, he/she slowly, deceptively moves the head back, THEN strikes. That is not good for a long distance throw.
The right hand moving back needs some speed, so it can overcome tendon/ligament resistance, to stretch it, to load it, with help from the forward moving right elbow.
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
I tried that out today Lee and got a lot more whip. I did lose a lot of accuracy though, probably because I'm not used to it. I'm sure once I get the whip feeling down the accuracy will come
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Long throwers never have accuracy. They throw long. The whip effect loads the tendons and ligaments, which allow a longer relative takeback, for a longer accleration forwards...and yes, less accuracy.
 
S

shindemac

Hall of Fame
LeeD said:
If the Cobra strike idea allows your tossing arm to relax, quickly takeback well beyond your right elbow, and then lead forward with that right elbow, you got it.
...

The right hand moving back needs some speed, so it can overcome tendon/ligament resistance, to stretch it, to load it, with help from the forward moving right elbow.
Click to expand...

This is one of the dangers of looking at pictures or video if you don't understand how it actually happens. Most beginners look at the serve and think it's all arm, but we know it's not true. Same thing here.

If you look at the picture of the QB, how is he getting his arm so far back like that? His arm is relaxed and the torque from his torso is doing that. Think of sitting in a car, and someone steps on the gas, and you'll be pushed back into your seat. Same thing here. The arm is going on a ride. If your arm is not going as far back, then either you're too tense or you're not generating enough power from your torso.

Like I said, don't force your arm back like that. Concentrate on your legs and torso for power. Once you bring your arms up to your side, they've done their job and you need to relax them.

As for your technique, try to stay balanced and have your torso upright. Try throwing without using your legs and with your legs. You should feel your torso whipping around faster and more power in your throw if you are doing it right. If you don't feel a difference, then your kinetic chain is broken and your legs aren't contributing much.
 
N

NLBwell

Legend
Ballinbob said:
Thank you. NLB, can you recommend a good coach around here for the serve? I usually just go to Gates but I haven't been impressed with their pros lately. Maybe I should try a good Open player to help me out instead?
Click to expand...

Me.
If you belonged to Inverness you could come to my serve clinics there.
You can ema il me at my user name with a number two afterward at g mail and maybe we can work something out on a sunny day.
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Will do, I'll contact you this month for sure. How much do you charge?

And I live in Golden, way too far to be an Inverness member. I'd be willing to drive down for a lesson though
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Much appreciated ! Qdoba it is.

And thanks Shindemac. I'll post another video soon where I focus on having a good kinetic chain. I know what you're talking about, just have to do it. I think a big problem of mine is being too tense...need to be conscious of that. It robs me of power
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Here is a throw from today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZkAlzqHL28

Here is the throw from 4 days ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BB2-Om3jIU

I focused on my takeback and staying lose today and that's where I saw the differences...my takeback is longer now. I think I was a lot smoother in this throw but it doesn't look like I'm using my chest muscles enough. Here are some before and after pics of the takeback.

Before:
kkh4.jpg


After:
ach7j.jpg


For next time, I will try and keep this motion and add a racket drop to my throw. It feels very awkward to throw like this, which is probably why I'm struggling with serving upward. Now I see why so few on here have a good kinetic chain on the serve...it's harder than it looks IMO
 
Cheetah

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
it looks better. take back is good now. left arm is good. windup is good. all that is definitely better than before.

but.. you still end it with a push. it's not as severe as before but towards the end there you kill the kinetic chain.

It's hard to describe but let's look at some symptoms.
Look at your follow thru. it veers off to the left of your body. I'm thinking this is a result of the 'push'.
The arm should and especially the pronation should be happening in a direction directly towards the target. Your pronation is towards the left.

Look at drew:
2amh3r.png


I think what is killing it is your elbow still.
It's too low and it is bent too much as you are bringing the ball up just before going forward. This is where the 'push' or
shotput action starts.
Imagine you were holding a racquet... it would look kind of weird right?

push (notice you have a bit of 'pancake serve' hand position)
15gbbm.png


You're elbow should be more and the forearm above the elbow earlier for that kind of throw. Your elbows and shoulders should form a line. Like in the sonic serve video.
Like this:
2ezkb2h.png

and this:
wtvo87.png


See how their shoulders and elbows are doing the same thing? On a serve it's more vertical but the elbows and shoulders all form that straight line like the arrow graphics in sonic serve.

Also, for a football throw your left arm should pull down more. like a serve. You are pulling your left arm too far to the left like in a forehand. You want the left elbow to go down which will give you a slight cartwheel type motion. The angle changes depending on if you are a 3/4 thrower or not but in either case the elbows for a serve, a throw and a fh all mirror each other.
In a fh the right arm swings around horizontally and the left arm does the same. In a serve the right elbow goes up and the left elbow goes down. in a throw it's the same but at different degrees.

like the QB says in this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq7ax9xQrE0
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Cool, so it's the elbow position then...Too high of an elbow in the serve, too low of an elbow in the throw lol. You're right in that it looks awkward. Shouldn't be too hard to fix though

For this week I'll work on getting my elbow in the right position and properly using my left arm. Hopefully fixing the elbow will make my kinetic chain smoother. Will post back when I feel improvement

Thanks again Cheetah...I'm getting there
 
Cheetah

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
yes. look at the lines in those guys elbows and shoulders. everything is lined up and spaced out evenly and symmetrical.
then look at your pic.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
I'm not sure turning the ball 180 out before throw like in those picsis the best for football or helping your tennis. There is a split about pointing the ball behind you and up to preference it seems.

I like this better....

images


pronations like this
images
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Serve Points

Bumping this thread for a progress check.

Things I think I'm doing better these days:
-Being more aggressive by coming into net more
-Not brushing up as much as I used to. Making more solid contact
-Balance looks a tad better and so does my movement, but could be wrong

Things I need to work on:
-Elbow on the forehand still needs work.
-My serve...thought I decided I want to fix my forehand first
-Pretty much everything else that was already mentioned in this thread already like my slice ect ect

My friend and I weren't playing our best today but it's good enough. The groundstrokes are not edited aside for picking up balls. The serve vid is just highlights from a set we played. My friend has never seen himself on video and asked me to make this

Serve Points (highlights): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv-_lfljHuY&feature=youtu.be

Quick Groundstroke game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1PWNYhBjS0&feature=youtu.be

Best to watch in HD
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
Nice playing there BB. I see the elbow still doesn't want to come down yet, but some nice serves anyway. Bh is always nice and the Fh is really hit with purpose. Seems like you are driving those mid ct balls much better and getting a more consistent contact point on that Fh. That S&V was pretty sharp too.
 
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S

Spin Doctor

Professional
Nice hitting. Am I crazy? Looks like you have more pace, better balance and movement here than in your previous videos.

Ballinbob said:
-My serve...thought I decided I want to fix my forehand first
Click to expand...

Good call. You have a great serve. I didn't understand why you were trying to change it. Maximaqq has posted lots of vids of good college players that don't have the "optimal" technique but they get the job done. Don't fix what isn't broken. Personally I wouldn't change it but you're young and have time to tinker with these things.
 
B

Braker4

New User
Ah, the Vyster!

Good hitting BB. Dangerous striking.
I must say, however, that your opponent there looks quite rusty!
You are ahead of the game, in that regard, as to being in tennis-shape early in the season.
Yet, I know that The Posse all get their games' sharper as the season goes on.

That new racquet of yours must fit your game to a tee.

It appeared that the cam-holder took some good shots and held up just fine!
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Thanks everyone, good to hear I'm doing something right haha. The mid court balls is something I've been working on. If I'm inside the baseline I really try to attack those. I've also been serve and volleying more . I'm getting better results being more aggressive versus pushing the ball like I usually do

And Braker- yeah Vy wasn't playing well that day. He is fun to play with though since he's really high energy
 
B

BIGJ98

Rookie
I definitely notice a huge improvement in your forehand. Before it was a loopy ball that didn't penetrate through the court but now you are hitting the fh with purpose and the ball looks a lot heavier. Great job!
 
psv255

psv255

Professional
Nice job BB. You revert back to your forced torso-arm turn into the ball when you're out of position and pressed for time, but when you have plenty of time it looks nice and smooth. Great work
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Thanks psv and topspin. The forehand feels a lot better but I still need to focus on the elbow. Making contact out in front without my elbow tucked by my rib cage is helping a lot

As for match performance- I've been doing pretty well in practice sets with my friends. The real test is tomorrow as I have a tournament then. Might have to play the #1 seed who is a really good player... Hopefully we both make it that far. You can follow my progress here. I am the #5 seed in the 4.0 bracket

Link: http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/tournamenthome/tournament.aspx?T=149103
 
tlm

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Nice hitting bob, my hitting partner watched and said he was impressed with your consistency and movement, also stated that guys like you are tough to play.
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
I feel like movement and consistency really shine through at the higher levels. I've been doing ladder drills for footwork and it's been helping me. Thanks for the comment tlm
 
tlm

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Ballinbob said:
I feel like movement and consistency really shine through at the higher levels. I've been doing ladder drills for footwork and it's been helping me. Thanks for the comment tlm
Click to expand...

I need to start doing the same, I can definitely see you are improving. My buddy who is a coach said guys like you are a pain to play because you are always going to keep the ball in play and never run out of energy. I agree you are like a David Ferrer out there if someone is going to beat you they have to earn it.
 
Bobby Jr

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
Cheetah said:
it looks better. take back is good now. left arm is good. windup is good. all that is definitely better than before.

but.. you still end it with a push. it's not as severe as before but towards the end there you kill the kinetic chain
Click to expand...
This ^. I agree. His forearm doesn't lag enough in the last half of the upper arm forward movement (prior to release). This could be partially due to not being used to the weight of the ball but he is is still 15% shot-put style.

I would recommend him trying a baseball or soft ball to see if he can get a better throwing actions with a lighter object.

Also Ballinbob, if you post a video - post more than the one throw you think looks best. Seeing a series of them will be far more indicative of your form.
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Here's a point from Monday that really shows how I've improved and what I need to work on as well. My elbow on the forehand is just not there yet... It's taking a lot more time than I thought to fix this. There are times when I get it right but usually I don't. I do think my movement/balance are better than a month or two ago. The contact point on the forehand is actually a lot better but I'm still late against good 4.5 players. Working on it though. I'm also really working on the cross court forehand and my consistency has went up a lot because of that. I'm finding I can hit my forehand cross court pretty hard and it stays in. As for strategic play, I am serve and volleying a lot more these days with good results.

Point: http://youtu.be/77WNUNxczoE

I will try and upload more footage later tonight.
 
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Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Lol thanks, I'm close. I'm hoping that playing with more strategy and continued focus on the forehand will help me get there.
 
Topspin Shot

Topspin Shot

Legend
A quick thing I noticed about your court positioning: you hit a groundstroke and then immediately jump backward like someone's pulling you with a string (you even do it off your own feed, which is completely unnecessary). You're doing this to recover, and sometimes it's good (when your opponent replies with a deep shot), but other times it costs you (when your opponent hits shorter but you can't do anything with it). Watch Djokovic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OHwcI8IGag He hits his shot and stays at the same depth, i.e. his recovery is mainly lateral. The idea is don't jump back automatically after every groundstroke you hit. Hang out at the depth you're at, and wait to see what your opponent does. If he hits deep, then drop step off your split and get back. If he hits short, you'll be in a much better position to attack.

Your friend is very explosive. That's a good thing. But he needs serious work on his forehand and his balance.
 
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Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
My 4.5 friend noticed that I move back after I hit just the other day too. I have no idea where I got that from but I'll keep that in mind. The improved court positioning will help a lot I imagine.

As for my friend, he can hit winners from anywhere on the court. He has a ton of power but can't control it. He got bumped to 4.0 last year so he's on the lower end of the 4.0 spectrum. So forehand and balance are probably the biggest issues he has? What should i tell him on the forehand? I am helping him out with split steps so hopefully that will keep getting better
 
Topspin Shot

Topspin Shot

Legend
Ballinbob said:
My 4.5 friend noticed that I move back after I hit just the other day too. I have no idea where I got that from but I'll keep that in mind. The improved court positioning will help a lot I imagine.

As for my friend, he can hit winners from anywhere on the court. He has a ton of power but can't control it. He got bumped to 4.0 last year so he's on the lower end of the 4.0 spectrum. So forehand and balance are probably the biggest issues he has? What should i tell him on the forehand? I am helping him out with split steps so hopefully that will keep getting better
Click to expand...

Reference points: unit turn, slot, contact, keep plane the same, finish. He's not hitting them.
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Sorry to bump this thread but can someone please take a quick look at my split step to see if I'm doing it correctly? Movement is really important to me and I want to make sure I don't ingrain any bad habits. Also, I remember Cheetah once talking about advanced split steps. What are those and are they worth learning?
 
Topspin Shot

Topspin Shot

Legend
Ballinbob said:
Sorry to bump this thread but can someone please take a quick look at my split step to see if I'm doing it correctly? Movement is really important to me and I want to make sure I don't ingrain any bad habits. Also, I remember Cheetah once talking about advanced split steps. What are those and are they worth learning?
Click to expand...

It looks pretty good. You're a little late on the split steps; you want to be at the top of the hop when your opponent makes contact, but you're still on the way up. Initiate the push off the ground when your opponent accelerates the racket forward. Do you understand how split stepping makes you faster?
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Thanks, just wanted a quick progress check. I've been working on initiating the push off the ground once my opponent makes contact so I'm glad you caught that. Explains why I am late. And doesn't split stepping just allow you to change direction quickly ? That's always how I've understood it
 
Topspin Shot

Topspin Shot

Legend
Ballinbob said:
Thanks, just wanted a quick progress check. I've been working on initiating the push off the ground once my opponent makes contact so I'm glad you caught that. Explains why I am late. And doesn't split stepping just allow you to change direction quickly ? That's always how I've understood it
Click to expand...

It does allow you to change direction quickly. Here's how it works: you're hanging up in the air when your opponent contacts the ball. As you're falling back down, you're able to anticipate where you have to run. So just before you touch down, you know whether you have to move leftward or rightward. If you're going to move rightward to hit a forehand, you need to do two things by the landing: get your chest pointed rightward and land on your left foot. You then push off the left foot and run to the right. If you're going to go leftward to hit a backhand, you need to get your chest pointed leftward and land on your right foot. If you're going to hit an inside out forehand, you need to land on the right foot and push off that right foot but point your chest rightward so you can backpedal. If you're too late with the split step, you'll be slow to move. If you're too early, you won't know which foot to land on and how to point your chest.
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Ahhh okay this is all clicking now. I thought you should just land on both feet, but the method you described sounds much more efficient. I think this is what Cheetah meant with the advanced split steps actually. Man this could really be a game changer for me... I don't think any of my 4.0 friends do this.

Thanks
 
onehandbh

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
Ballinbob said:
Ahhh okay this is all clicking now. I thought you should just land on both feet, but the method you described sounds much more efficient. I think this is what Cheetah meant with the advanced split steps actually. Man this could really be a game changer for me... I don't think any of my 4.0 friends do this.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I land on two feet on the split step and use both feet/legs to push to the right
or left. If it's forwards that i have to move, I land with my feet slightly
staggered. Not sure if this is better or worse than landing on one foot, but
it feels more natural to me.
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
^Yeah at the moment that feels more natural to me as well. The way Topspin described seems a lot more efficient though to be honest and I think it's worth practicing.

Just for future reference, this is what my goals are regarding movement:

1. Work on the "advanced" split step
2. Work on not stepping backwards after every shot. This puts me off balance and makes getting short slices really difficult.
3. Work on my recovery steps when pulled out wide to my forehand. This is a huge weakness of mine. I need to revisit the jezgreen site and see what the optimal way to recover is
 
Topspin Shot

Topspin Shot

Legend
Ballinbob said:
^Yeah at the moment that feels more natural to me as well. The way Topspin described seems a lot more efficient though to be honest and I think it's worth practicing.

Just for future reference, this is what my goals are regarding movement:

1. Work on the "advanced" split step
2. Work on not stepping backwards after every shot. This puts me off balance and makes getting short slices really difficult.
3. Work on my recovery steps when pulled out wide to my forehand. This is a huge weakness of mine. I need to revisit the jezgreen site and see what the optimal way to recover is
Click to expand...

I believe he calls it the mogul step for moderately wide balls and the powerstep for very wide balls.
 
B

Braker4

New User
BallinBob,
You should set up a camera, facing you fairly close when serving. You can analyze the stills and maybe even some slow-motion footage of your serve.
I have always wanted to do this, but have not yet. Live footage and still shots both.
 
Ballinbob

Ballinbob

Hall of Fame
Here is an updated hitting video.

1. Can someone look at my friends movement? How's he doing there?
2. His backhand is his best shot but it looks very WTA-ish. Is it worth changing or should he focus all his attention on the forehand?
3. How do you get someone to shorten their backswing? He isn't getting it when I tell him to go the outside of his body to hit a forehand.

My friend is able to hit the shiznit out of the ball and I feel like with better technique he can make it to 4.5+. He's really fit and dedicated and I feel he's underachieving... I should not be able to beat him 1 and 1 all the time. What do you guys think is his #1 problem at the moment? Topspin, any ideas on what's causing the balance issues for him? I feel like he split steps okay but you're right in that he is off balance a lot.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ce5mCiPzPY&feature=youtu.be

-------------------------
Braker, you'll have to show me what you mean next time we play. We need to take some videos from the side of our serves, we haven't done that.
 
Topspin Shot

Topspin Shot

Legend
Ballinbob said:
Here is an updated hitting video.

1. Can someone look at my friends movement? How's he doing there?
2. His backhand is his best shot but it looks very WTA-ish. Is it worth changing or should he focus all his attention on the forehand?
3. How do you get someone to shorten their backswing? He isn't getting it when I tell him to go the outside of his body to hit a forehand.

My friend is able to hit the shiznit out of the ball and I feel like with better technique he can make it to 4.5+. He's really fit and dedicated and I feel he's underachieving... I should not be able to beat him 1 and 1 all the time. What do you guys think is his #1 problem at the moment? Topspin, any ideas on what's causing the balance issues for him? I feel like he split steps okay but you're right in that he is off balance a lot.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ce5mCiPzPY&feature=youtu.be

-------------------------
Braker, you'll have to show me what you mean next time we play. We need to take some videos from the side of our serves, we haven't done that.
Click to expand...

I'l look at the video in more detail a little later, but the first things that jump out at me regarding his movement are that his base is narrow, and his center of gravity moves as he swings. Because he's running for all your shots, I can't tell whether his strokes or his movement is more responsible for his balance issues. To find this out, I would hit some soft shots right at him and see if he can maintain balance there. If not, then his strokes are the problem. So the question would be whether to make his form more conventional (if strokes are the issue) or to teach him cleaner footwork patterns (if he can maintain balance without moving).
 
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